Overwatch: Big revisions that took a year. or two.

[DaReaperMan]

So, Overwatch has a lot of feats that have been calced, and I can make scaling differences and the like.
TLDR: cast upgrade to High 8-C. Stronger characters get upgraded to Class M LS with a Class K supporting feat. Cast upgrade to MFTL combat speeds and reactions, and Weekly has helpfully put all calcs Here.

Basically, Hammond has a High 8-C feat again, and Junker Queen Scales for beating Hammond and Hog for being one of the most feared Junkers.

But wait, I can hear you saying "But Reaper, Junkers are super secluded and have no reason to scale to anyone else!" And so I give you... this. Junker Queen has fought R-7000 Ravagers. Here's the Overwatch wiki page for Ravagers, complete with references, but one thing is very important here, they were built by Anubis. Anubis was active during the beginning of the omnic crisis, when a Young Ana would've still been in the Egyptian military, which means she would've had to also fight Ravagers. But it's not that simple, because in-game Dialogue is treated as a "likely" here last I checked, as such, we look below.

And thus we look to the 9-A+ no-sell by Heavy Assault Talon units dropping down, 7 characters have fought them for sure, and 99% of the cast has good reason to scale to or above characters like Tracer and Mercy. So, becuase it's a no-sell, that upscales to 8-C. Thus, 8-C, likely High 8-C.

The current High 8-C chain is the following: Sigma(Stated to be the strongest Weapon Talon has, putting him above the fister)>D.va(Gwishin have long since adapted to be far stronger then OR-14s and other omnics of the crisis)/OW2 Orisa/Doomfist/Primal Winston/Lucio's Sonic Barrier(Allowed Lucio to tank an uppercut from Doomfist)>Zarya's Particle Cannon=OW1 Orisa(Her offense was heavily supported during her rematch with Doomfist, even if she was only stunned by one of his punches)>=Nemesis Ramattra/Lucio's Sonic Amplifier(A burst knocked Doomfist over.)>OR-15>OR-14=Reinhardt/Winston>Ramattra/Junker Queen/Hog/Wrecking Ball>OW2Bastion(both Bastion and Ramattra got upgraded from their base bots, Ramattra just has a better baseline bot.)

Speed: Massively FTL Omnic reactions, here's the statement, A Mircrofraction of a Microsecond=Picoseconds, which is MFTL, this scales to Omnic Reactions, and to Tracer's Blink(Yes I'll upload the Image to the wiki once I revise Tracer's profile) and Genji's dash and reactions(Genji can stop his dash and it was shown comparable to Tracer's blinks). that's it. thats everyone who scales to that beyond All Omnic reactions.

Very important note: this revision is to have scaling debated and accepted, the characters will get their pages revised one by one, as each has their own scaling kinks.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Agreed

 

[Not_Icarus]

It's reasonable and I agree

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

Neutral

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

 

[Jasonsith]

Time frame present, no diatance...
Does it mean MFTL perception?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

and to Tracer's Blink

But the Omnic feat is for perception, not combat and I don't think you can prove the Blink was making her too fast to be perceived by them. This is the only time Genji interacted with her blink unless something new came out and I don't think he was using his dash there, when did Genji's dash move at comparable speeds to her blink

 

[Dalesean027]

Time frame present, no diatance...
Does it mean MFTL perception?

Guess so
And agreed I suppose

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And thus we look to the 9-A+ no-sell by Heavy Assault Talon units dropping down, 7 characters have fought them for sure, and 99% of the cast has good reason to scale to or above characters like Tracer and Mercy. So, becuase it's a no-sell, that upscales to 8-C. Thus, 8-C, likely High 8-C.

What attacks did they use against the units canonically?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But the Omnic feat is for perception

Correct

, not combat and I don't think you can prove the Blink was making her too fast to be perceived by them. This is the only time Genji interacted with her blink unless something new came out and I don't think he was using his dash there, when did Genji's dash move at comparable speeds to her blink

He matched her Blinks with his Swift Strikes in the doomfist cinematic, as well as blitzing an omnic with Swift Strike in Zero Hour, while Tracer blitzed aroun an entire group of omnics in London Calling

 

[DaReaperMan]

What attacks did they use against the units canonically?

Anything they had on-hand. Otherwise known as, it happened in Storm Rising and Retribution, we really don't know exactly what they used lmfao, for all we know they could have punched them to death. Keep in mind, everyone from Tracer to Mercy to Reyes can tank physical hits and the like from them and damage them

 

[Abstractions]

AP is probably fine, but I have a few nitpicks here and there with the OP.

And thus we look to the 9-A+ no-sell by Heavy Assault Talon units dropping down, 7 characters have fought them for sure, and 99% of the cast has good reason to scale to or above characters like Tracer and Mercy. So, becuase it's a no-sell, that upscales to 8-C

These things are absurdly tanky even to the cast, using this as reasoning I'd only see them fitting to downscale from being able to eventually kill it, They specifically wouldn't be 8-C for this.

Speed

Nobody should actually scale to this, it's just that Omnics are capable of processing incredibly small differences in tempo and timing like a computer, it's perception that isn't usable within a combat setting and wouldn't apply to their reactions.

If you want Omnic characters to have the perception listed, go ahead. But Tracer and Genji wouldn't be affected.

 

[DaReaperMan]

AP is probably fine, but I have a few nitpicks here and there with the OP.


These things are absurdly tanky even to the cast, using this as reasoning I'd only see them fitting to downscale from being able to eventually kill it, They specifically wouldn't be 8-C for this.


Nobody should actually scale to this, it's just that Omnics are capable of processing incredibly small differences in tempo and timing like a computer, it's perception that isn't usable within a combat setting and wouldn't apply to their reactions.

If you want Omnic characters to have the perception listed, go ahead. But Tracer and Genji wouldn't be affected.

It was an actual no-sell, so damaging them at all is a reason for upscale

All right, that makes sense lol

 

[WeeklyBattles]

AP is probably fine, but I have a few nitpicks here and there with the OP.


These things are absurdly tanky even to the cast, using this as reasoning I'd only see them fitting to downscale from being able to eventually kill it, They specifically wouldn't be 8-C for this.

Being tanky means nothing when the cast canonically fought and beat them unless you want to argue that chip damage is a thing when we dont accept that here

Nobody should actually scale to this, it's just that Omnics are capable of processing incredibly small differences in tempo and timing like a computer, it's perception that isn't usable within a combat setting and wouldn't apply to their reactions.

If you want Omnic characters to have the perception listed, go ahead. But Tracer and Genji wouldn't be affected.

Not sure what you mean, tracer and Genji with their speed amps have shown the ability to bypass those perceptions outright multiple times

 

[Abstractions]

Being tanky means nothing when the cast canonically fought and beat them unless you want to argue that chip damage is a thing when we dont accept that here

It's not chip damage it's just explicitly clear that it takes a lot to put down a Heavy Assault because of the sheer durability it has, them upscaling as if they could easily kill it wouldn't make sense.

Not sure what you mean, tracer and Genji with their speed amps have shown the ability to bypass those perceptions outright multiple times

I think it's pretty clear what I mean, them catching Omnics off-guard with their speed would be completely separate of the Omnic's ability to process timing differences within music after it has already heard the notes. The fractional difference they recognize is independent of actual reaction time.

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

By the way, should Moira's AP be unknown with her Biotic Grasp? Isn't it just sucking the life/vitality out of people rather than actually hurting them? It can't really find any scans of it, so its probably fine to treat it like AP, but I feel like the intention was that it was Moira sucking her enemy dry.

 

[DaReaperMan]

By the way, should Moira's AP be unknown with her Biotic Grasp? Isn't it just sucking the life/vitality out of people rather than actually hurting them? It can't really find any scans of it, so its probably fine to treat it like AP, but I feel like the intention was that it was Moira sucking her enemy dry.

Moira will be revised at a later date, see the note.

It's not chip damage it's just explicitly clear that it takes a lot to put down a Heavy Assault because of the sheer durability it has, them upscaling as if they could easily kill it wouldn't make sense.

However, damaging something means your above the no-sell it did, so even if it wasn't a lot of damage, say, McCree(Or Cassidy, whatever), would still be upscaling from a value that's on the precipice of 8-C because that value was literally no-sold

 

[Abstractions]

so even if it wasn't a lot of damage, say, McCree(Or Cassidy, whatever)

Nitpicking again but his damage is probably the most important on HAs because Reaper cannot stick around long and Genji isn't as reliable on the hardest difficulty but I digress.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Nitpicking again but his damage is probably the most important on HAs because Reaper cannot stick around long and Genji isn't as reliable on the hardest difficulty but I digress.

Oh believe me, I know, I did Legendary Retribution mainly as Reyes(yeah he's gonna be a different key, spoilers), but they still did damage and can take hits, which is why i opted to go "8-C, yeeeee", I can understand where your coming from, but that doesn't mean I can't argue for 8-C Overwatch, even if it'll be baseline.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It's not chip damage it's just explicitly clear that it takes a lot to put down a Heavy Assault because of the sheer durability it has, them upscaling as if they could easily kill it wouldn't make sense.

Oh they wouldnt upscale, theyd scale directly to it, the only upscaling is the feat itself seeing as it is literally .001 tons away from being 8-C and the feat itself did zero damage to the heavy assault. Hell, with the implication that Mauga is eventually going to be a playable character it would just lend more credence to them scaling to heavies.

I think it's pretty clear what I mean, them catching Omnics off-guard with their speed would be completely separate of the Omnic's ability to process timing differences within music after it has already heard the notes. The fractional difference they recognize is independent of actual reaction time.

They didnt catch them off guard though, in both cases the omnics were already trained on them and about to start shooting

 

[DaReaperMan]

They didnt catch them off guard though, in both cases the omnics were already trained on them and about to start shooting

To add onto this, even if I'm staying out of this particular debate, there are feats that you may think counts for MFFTL, but was moreso just the bots not dodging, notably Widow sniping Mondatta and Doomfist vs OR-15s, they just didn't dodge. The end.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In the Doomfist vs tracer and Genji fight he couldnt tag them normally so Doom had to destroy the battlefield force Genji into a position where he couldnt dodge in order to him him and then had to predict where tracer was going to blink to in order to catch her.

 

[DaReaperMan]

In the Doomfist vs tracer and Genji fight he couldnt tag them normally so Doom had to destroy the battlefield force Genji into a position where he couldnt dodge in order to him him and then had to predict where tracer was going to blink to in order to catch her.

Yeah that too, he has no reason to scale

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But yeah, sorry to dash everyone's hopes but MFTL+ would only apply to genji and tracer's movement abilities and the perception speed of omnics, nothing else at the moment

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

But yeah, sorry to dash everyone's hopes but MFTL+ would only apply to genji and tracer's movement abilities and the perception speed of omnics, nothing else at the moment

Hypersonic cast is still pretty good for High 8-C Characters

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hypersonic cast is still pretty good for High 8-C Characters

Technically should be higher given that theres now abilities that double the attack speed and combat speed of the entire cast

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Technically should be higher given that theres now abilities that double the attack speed and combat speed of the entire cast

I mean technically Genji can deflect those bullets from point blank range

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ngl It should probably get a recalc, the current calc is a huge lowball

 

[XXKINGXX69]

However, damaging something means your above the no-sell it did, so even if it wasn't a lot of damage, say, McCree(Or Cassidy, whatever), would still be upscaling from a value that's on the precipice of 8-C because that value was literally no-sold

That's true but they could have damaged them with an attack stronger than their striking strength or normal attacks, like deadeye or

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's true but they could have damaged them with an attack stronger than their striking strength or normal attacks, like deadeye or

Deadeye isn't canonically stronger then Cassidy's normal shots, nor is Coalescence, nor is Death Blossom. The only one of the Retribution squad that has a stronger ultimate is Genji. And before you even THINK of bringing up Reaper's shotguns, mate, it's Reyes, he's canonically weaker then his Reaper self, and he doesn't even use the same shotguns.

As for Storm Rising, Genji is there as well, so he's one, Winston is literally solidly High 8-C, so he's more like more enforcement for likely High 8-C, Tracer's pulse bomb is only stronger then her normal attacks because it's a ******* explosive, and Mercy hates fighting so she probably didn't do shit.

Your arguments against it is basically "but they could've done these things they don't spam". No seriously. Not ONE of these characters spams their ult outside of gameplay. Think long and hard about your next argument against scaling, so I don't tear it to shreds like I did this one.

Edit: Oh, and before you bring up the fact that Moira is dura neg, it doesn't work as well on very heavily armored dudes, like the heavy assault units are, it moreso applies its matter manip to their armor at that point.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Deadeye isn't canonically stronger then Cassidy's normal shots, nor is Coalescence, nor is Death Blossom. The only one of the Retribution squad that has a stronger ultimate is Genji. And before you even THINK of bringing up Reaper's shotguns, mate, it's Reyes, he's canonically weaker then his Reaper self, and he doesn't even use the same shotguns.

As for Storm Rising, Genji is there as well, so he's one, Winston is literally solidly High 8-C, so he's more like more enforcement for likely High 8-C, Tracer's pulse bomb is only stronger then her normal attacks because it's a ******* explosive, and Mercy hates fighting so she probably didn't do shit.

Your arguments against it is basically "but they could've done these things they don't spam". No seriously. Not ONE of these characters spams their ult outside of gameplay. Think long and hard about your next argument against scaling, so I don't tear it to shreds like I did this one.

Edit: Oh, and before you bring up the fact that Moira is dura neg, it doesn't work as well on very heavily armored dudes, like the heavy assault units are, it moreso applies its matter manip to their armor at that point.

How come Coalescence isn't stronger than Moira's regular attacks?

 

[DaReaperMan]

How come Coalescence isn't stronger than Moira's regular attacks?

Because it's simply applying both her Biotic Grasp's abilities into one, it's just bigger and has better range. And since, again, Moira is dura neg...

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Zarya can make black holes and Zenyatta can become one with the universe

 

[DaReaperMan]

Zarya can make black holes and Zenyatta can become one with the universe

Good luck getting that accepted and flowery language.

At that point give Sigma supergenius for having cosmic awareness

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Zarya can make black holes and Zenyatta can become one with the universe

Sigma actually outright confirms that Zarya doesnt use a real black hole

 

[Abstractions]

They didnt catch them off guard though, in both cases the omnics were already trained on them and about to start shooting

The circumstances of what happened actually don't matter because the feat isn't exactly usable in a combat setting the way you want it to be, as it doesn't apply to reactions and only how they process information already received. They don't "react" to these subtle differences occurring in real-time but instead when they hear it their hyper-advanced programming is able to analyze these slight differences, which is how they recognize it.

It would be like us trying to decipher the difference in something firing 2000 rpm vs. 1999 rpm, our minds aren't trained to adequately tell the difference whereas theirs are, not through reactions but processing after the fact.

I'm just saying no to the speed scaling here. Sorry.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Agree with abstractions

Sigma actually outright confirms that Zarya doesnt use a real black hole

Which comic did that happen in?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Which comic did that happen in?

99.9% sure it's an interaction

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Which comic did that happen in?

Its one of their in-game interactions

Edit: Ninjaed

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The current High 8-C chain is the following: Sigma(Stated to be the strongest Weapon Talon has, putting him above the fister)>D.va(Gwishin have long since adapted to be far stronger then OR-14s and other omnics of the crisis)/OW2 Orisa/Doomfist/Primal Winston/Lucio's Sonic Barrier(Allowed Lucio to tank an uppercut from Doomfist)>Zarya's Particle Cannon=OW1 Orisa(Her offense was heavily supported during her rematch with Doomfist, even if she was only stunned by one of his punches)>=Nemesis Ramattra/Lucio's Sonic Amplifier(A burst knocked Doomfist over.)>OR-15>OR-14=Reinhardt/Winston>Ramattra/Junker Queen/Hog/Wrecking Ball>OW2Bastion(both Bastion and Ramattra got upgraded from their base bots, Ramattra just has a better baseline bot.)

Scans