DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

[Transcending]

Darkseid once kicked the authors out of the story tho idk if that's Plot Manip, but I will look for some instances of him affecting stories.

Getting him to 1-A is impossible though, his best scaling only gets him to the Sphere of the Gods which isn't 1-A, even with highball.

 

[Transcending]

I only agree with limited plot manipulation, as @Antvasima stated previously.

About TDK however, do you think he should get a full Plot Manip or just Limited?

 

[ImmortalDread]

About TDK however, do you think he should get a full Plot Manip or just Limited?

What is his reasoning again? Mind explaining it?

 

[Transcending]

What is his reasoning again? Mind explaining it?

1: He was destroying stories in his fight with Perpetua

2: He created stories of his own Multiverse, the Last 52 which were going to replace the stories of the main Multiverse

 

[ImmortalDread]

1: He was destroying stories in his fight with Perpetua

What was the outcome?

 

[Transcending]

What was the outcome?

The fight affected and nearly erased reality but TDK killed Perpetua quick enough for it to survive. However, reality collapsed.

After that, Wonder Woman defeated TDK before he could achieve his aims and the Hands then restored and remade all stories. It should be noted that they were also stated to be able to destroy stories some pages before, and Perpetua is one of them so she should also be able to make stories, along with destroying them.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The fight affected and nearly erased reality but TDK killed Perpetua quick enough for it to survive. However, reality collapsed.

After that, Wonder Woman defeated TDK before he could achieve his aims and the Hands then restored and remade all stories. It should be noted that they were also stated to be able to destroy stories some pages before, and Perpetua is one of them so she should also be able to make stories, along with destroying them.

Dang, ya, it looks like plot manipulation at its finest.
Seems those stories are reality-based, and it affects reality.

I am still curious about who wrote those stories.

 

[Transcending]

Dang, ya, it looks like plot manipulation at its finest.
Seems those stories are reality-based, and it affects reality.

I am still curious about who wrote those stories.

So a solid Plot Manip for TDK, Perpetua, and The Hands?

 

[ImmortalDread]

So a solid Plot Manip for TDK, Perpetua, and The Hands?

Ya

 

[Transcending]

So now we have only one disagreement while there's 6-7 agreements(10+ if you count the comments that said the whole post is good). I think this is a good enough ratio to apply but I will go confirm with a staff member just in case.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So now we have only one disagreement while there's 6-7 agreements(10+ if you count the comments that said the whole post is good). I think this is a good enough ratio to apply but I will go confirm with a staff member just in case.

Ask Ant, he is a reasonable and knowledgeable person in this matter.

 

[Antvasima]

I see that now. I don't think your description of the situation that led him to agree is accurate.

We have a very small number of vague references to "stories" which can very easily and sensibly be interpreted as metaphor rather than metafiction. I do not think we should apply plot manipulation without a clear indication of metafiction.

If you kill someone and an observer says "you ended their story" that shouldn't be interpreted as plot manipulation, but that is roughly what is happening here.

Deagonx seems to make sense in his above posts regarding plot manipulation. Is it better if Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor Superman have it removed instead then?

 

[Transcending]

Deagonx seems to make sense in his above posts regarding plot manipulation. Is it better if Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor Superman have it removed instead then?

I disagree. His argument is based on metafiction which isn't necessary to gain Plot Manip going by what Dread said. Along with that, the majority here agrees with Perpetua, TDK, and The Hands getting Plot Manip, not Mandrakk losing it.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree. His argument is based on metafiction which isn't necessary to gain Plot Manip going by what Dread said. Along with that, the majority here agrees with Perpetua, TDK, and The Hands getting Plot Manip, not Mandrakk losing it.

Okay. Please explain further please.

I will likely unlock the following pages afterwards.

Perpetua
The Batman Who Laughs
The Hands (DC Comics)
Doctor Manhattan
Mandrakk the Dark Monitor

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Please explain further please.

I will give a quick summarization.

1: The battle between Perpetua and TDK was ripping apart stories on a scale never before seen by the Chronicler. For reference, the Chronicler had knowledge of all previous crises including Final Crisis, in which we already accept Plot Manipulation to have occurred by Mandrakk.

2: The Darkest Knight created the Last 52, a collection of worlds with nightmarish stories. He then tried to change how the stories functioned in the main Multiverse and was going to replace them with the stories of his Multiverse.

3: The Hands were stated to be capable of destroying the Multiverse and its stories

4: However, after seeing Wonder Woman save them, even when she knew they would destroy her and her Multiverse, they decided to rethink their methods and remake the entire Multiverse, including all its stories, and bring back everything that had ever existed to the present. This is also referenced multiple times in the recent comics, this being an example. Perpetua is part of the Hands so whatever they can do, she can too.

 

[Deagonx]

His argument is based on metafiction which isn't necessary to gain Plot Manip going by what Dread said

So we agree, at the very least, that this is not metafictional, but you are arguing that plot Manipulation can occur without being metafictional?

If so, I'd have to disagree. Plot Manipulation is explicitly metafictional

 

[Transcending]

So we agree, at the very least, that this is not metafictional, but you are arguing that plot Manipulation can occur without being metafictional?

I can agree that Death Metal doesn't have anything metafictional for now. My argument is instead based on reality-based stories.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Even if metafiction is a necessity for plot manipulation, does Death Metal itself have to reference it? The stories from composite DC are accepted to be metafictional as proven by Mandrakk having the ability. Can't we use that?

 

[Deagonx]

The stories from composite DC are accepted to be metafictional as proven by Mandrakk having the ability. Can't we use that?

We would be assuming that the term "stories" is being used in precisely the same context across 15 years of comics, despite the fact that they were used quite differently in each one.

Morrison said that CAS was story, for example

 

[Transcending]

Morrison said that CAS was story, for example

Are you referencing this scan? https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgOaq2VKrf-1a7EaQIGynUF47dKDKWX7Rbmw&usqp=CAU

 

[Beyond_transcending]

We would be assuming that the term "stories" is being used in precisely the same context across 15 years of comics, despite the fact that they were used quite differently in each one.

Morrison said that CAS was story, for example

Okay, but why'd stories not refer to metafictional stories?

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, but why'd stories not refer to metafictional stories?

Because stories can be about true real life things, not fictional things.

Are you referencing this scan?

Not specifically, he said something in an interview to that effect

 

[Transcending]

We would be assuming that the term "stories" is being used in precisely the same context across 15 years of comics, despite the fact that they were used quite differently in each one

Actually, there's one similarity. Mandrakk's scan said that he was going to drain all stories of the DCU, what The Hands did is remake all stories of the same DCU.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So we agree, at the very least, that this is not metafictional, but you are arguing that plot Manipulation can occur without being metafictional?

If so, I'd have to disagree. Plot Manipulation is explicitly metafictional

Mind explaining if it is not plot manipulation, then what is the ability?

 

[Transcending]

Actually, there's one similarity. Mandrakk's scan said that he was going to drain all stories of the DCU, what The Hands did is remake all stories of the same DCU.

For more proof on it referring to metafiction, the stories remade by the Hands fixed the damage done to them by Mandrakk

https://media.**********.net/attach...18536810561536/Screenshot_20220911-124106.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that plot manipulation needs to involve some form of metafiction, so maybe we need to slightly edit the Mandrakk and CAS pages.

 

[Transcending]

Disagree. The majority is still supporting Plot Manip for TDK, Perpetua, and The Hands and this is not a minor majority like one or two more supporters either.

Mandrakk having Plot Manip means either of two things.

1: Mandrakk doesn't follow metafiction. If this is the case, our current standards say that metafiction is not necessary for Plot Manip, in which case, for Perpetua to not have Plot Manip, you would need to change the standards in a separate thread first

2: Mandrakk does follow metafiction, in which case, I explained above how The Hands would still have Plot Manip, and by extension, Perpetua and TDK.

Also, Death Metal isn't completely without metafiction. Its prequel, JL(2018) showcased stuff like Mr. Mxyzptlk reverting the comic back to the sketches with the artist shown drawing the comic.

With what we currently have, there are two choices:

1: Apply Plot Manip

2: Bring someone who's an expert on Plot Manip(like Ultima and Donttalk) and see what they say. If they think metafiction is not necessary, we can apply it. If they say metafiction is necessary, we will see if members think my argument of The Hands' plot manip relating to Mandrakk is good. If the majority disagrees we can disapprove the change, and if the majority agrees we can approve it.

Dr. Manhattan will need to be unlocked either way though, his upgrade was already accepted and has nothing to do with Plot Manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

Disagree. The majority is still supporting Plot Manip for TDK, Perpetua, and The Hands and this is not a minor majority like one or two more supporters either.

Mandrakk having Plot Manip means either of two things.

1: Mandrakk doesn't follow metafiction. If this is the case, our current standards say that metafiction is not necessary for Plot Manip, in which case, for Perpetua to not have Plot Manip, you would need to change the standards in a separate thread first

2: Mandrakk does follow metafiction, in which case, I explained above how The Hands would still have Plot Manip, and by extension, Perpetua and TDK.

Also, Death Metal isn't completely without metafiction. Its prequel, JL(2018) showcased stuff like Mr. Mxyzptlk reverting the comic back to the sketches with the artist shown drawing the comic.

With what we currently have, there are two choices:

1: Apply Plot Manip

2: Bring someone who's an expert on Plot Manip(like Ultima and Donttalk) and see what they say. If they think metafiction is not necessary, we can apply it. If they say metafiction is necessary, we will see if members think my argument of The Hands' plot manip relating to Mandrakk is good. If the majority disagrees we can disapprove the change, and if the majority agrees we can approve it.

Dr. Manhattan will need to be unlocked either way though, his upgrade was already accepted and has nothing to do with Plot Manipulation.

Well, most likely a mistake was simply made, rather than a site-defining standard but I will ask for input.

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @ByAsura @Andytrenom @Wokistan @KingPin0422 @Agnaa @Pain_to12

Do you know if our Plot Manipulation standards require some form of metafiction to be involved in order to qualify, and if so, do we need to update the page in question?

Also, is it fine if I add a section for the ability to the following page?

Knowledgeable Members List (Wiki Terminology)

 

[Transcending]

Also, is it fine if I add a section for the ability to the following page?

Yeah, I think that would be great

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know what plot manip would be without metafiction. I think the world being/having an actual underlying story, or something analogized to that, (which isn't contradicted; I know a verse which initially said a group was writing reality's "story" but then clarified that it was non-literal and they were just using precog to manipulate events to their liking) would be necessary for plot manip, and I can't think of a way to have that without metafiction.

Adding a section for it there seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply. Should this be mentioned in our Plot Manipulation page as well, and would you or some other knowledgeable member be willing to write it?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know why it would be; it's tautological.

Plot manipulation is the manipulation of stories.

A metafiction is a story about stories.

I have no idea how this could even be contested.

Either the people pushing for this ability despite there being no reference to stories chose this ability out of thin air for no reason whatsoever, or the people rejecting this ability for not being "metafictional" are misunderstanding what "metafiction" is, and without reading this long thread, I can't tell which is true here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in order to avoid future misunderstandings I think that we should explicitly spell this out in the relevant instruction page, just in case.

 

[Transcending]

Either the people pushing for this ability despite there being no reference to stories chose this ability out of thin air for no reason whatsoever, or the people rejecting this ability for not being "metafictional" are misunderstanding what "metafiction" is, and without reading this long thread, I can't tell which is true here.

I did provide multiple evidences to "stories" being mentioned. You can read my summary here:

I will give a quick summarization.

1: The battle between Perpetua and TDK was ripping apart stories on a scale never before seen by the Chronicler. For reference, the Chronicler had knowledge of all previous crises including Final Crisis, in which we already accept Plot Manipulation to have occurred by Mandrakk.

2: The Darkest Knight created the Last 52, a collection of worlds with nightmarish stories. He then tried to change how the stories functioned in the main Multiverse and was going to replace them with the stories of his Multiverse.

3: The Hands were stated to be capable of destroying the Multiverse and its stories

4: However, after seeing Wonder Woman save them, even when she knew they would destroy her and her Multiverse, they decided to rethink their methods and remake the entire Multiverse, including all its stories, and bring back everything that had ever existed to the present. This is also referenced multiple times in the recent comics, this being an example. Perpetua is part of the Hands so whatever they can do, she can too.

 

[Agnaa]

The fact that it has to be metafictional is already in its definition "Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality."

If there's no plot that governs reality to be manipulated, it would never qualify by the first sentence.

If there is, the work is metafictional, so the note would be redundant.

@Transcending Then I have no idea why people are saying it isn't metafictional enough. Could anyone summarize their reasons for saying that?

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is no plot manip without meta-fiction the only case would be if there was explicit statement or showing and little to no anti-feat.
What I mean by the latter is a character in a story manipulating/writing the story from within the same story.
Now typing it out in full, makes me realize that, it is still a form of meta-fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Then I have no idea why people are saying it isn't metafictional enough. Could anyone summarize their reasons for saying that?

@Deagonx

Can you help out with this please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will give a quick summarization.

1: The battle between Perpetua and TDK was ripping apart stories on a scale never before seen by the Chronicler. For reference, the Chronicler had knowledge of all previous crises including Final Crisis, in which we already accept Plot Manipulation to have occurred by Mandrakk.

How is two characters fighting and nuking universes supposed to be plot manip?
Referring to lower D as stories

2: The Darkest Knight created the Last 52, a collection of worlds with nightmarish stories. He then tried to change how the stories functioned in the main Multiverse and was going to replace them with the stories of his Multiverse.

This may be nitpicking, but a villain saying he is going to change the story so there is no more happy ending and the good will never win, can be easily metaphors.
I mean thats the tone i got from it

3: The Hands were stated to be capable of destroying the Multiverse and its stories

This would still not be plot manipulation. Destroying stories can be the same as the entirety of a universe

4: However, after seeing Wonder Woman save them, even when she knew they would destroy her and her Multiverse, they decided to rethink their methods and remake the entire Multiverse, including all its stories, and bring back everything that had ever existed to the present. This is also referenced multiple times in the recent comics, this being an example. Perpetua is part of the Hands so whatever they can do, she can too.

"All history. All stories will be remembered........."

That's not plot manip

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12 makes sense to me above.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The fact that it has to be metafictional is already in its definition "Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality."

If there's no plot that governs reality to be manipulated, it would never qualify by the first sentence.

If there is, the work is metafictional, so the note would be redundant.

@Transcending Then I have no idea why people are saying it isn't metafictional enough. Could anyone summarize their reasons for saying that?

Literally, the stories he destroyed effect reality. Which ability do you call that?