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DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

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Transcending said:
This is what is written in the page:
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Okay. Remember that Morrison and Snyder to not have identical functioning cosmologies though. Mandrakk having plot manipulation does not automatically scale to Perpetua.
 
Was Perpetua shown or explicitly stated to do that? It would be rather limited plot manipulation in itself though, due to the lack of versatility.
 
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Which pages do I need to unlock for you to apply that then?
 
What, perpetua's are the limits of Plot manipulation? l don't follow this thread much.
 
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Transcending said:
Technically, the majority, including some staff and former staff members, agreed with it.
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Myself and Dread disagreed with Plot Manipulation. I saw Ehnkr2beboh agree with it, and I think Beyond_transcending, but no one else in the thread addressed it.

If you are counting people who simply said "this seems fine to me" to the entire post, I do not agree that it would be accurate to count them as "agreeing with plot manipulation"
 
Deagonx said:
Myself and Dread disagreed with Plot Manipulation.
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Dread now agrees. I am pretty sure @Recap_ and @Eseseso agrees too.
Deagonx said:
If you are counting people who simply said "this seems fine to me" to the entire post, I do not agree that it would be accurate to count them as "agreeing with plot manipulation"
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Not sure why but I can ask them to give input again if you want.
 
Transcending said:
Dread now agrees
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I see that now. I don't think your description of the situation that led him to agree is accurate.

We have a very small number of vague references to "stories" which can very easily and sensibly be interpreted as metaphor rather than metafiction. I do not think we should apply plot manipulation without a clear indication of metafiction.

If you kill someone and an observer says "you ended their story" that shouldn't be interpreted as plot manipulation, but that is roughly what is happening here.
 
Deagonx said:
I see that now. I don't think your description of the situation that led him to agree is accurate.

We have a very small number of vague references to "stories" which can very easily and sensibly be interpreted as metaphor rather than metafiction. I do not think we should apply plot manipulation without a clear indication of metafiction.

If you kill someone and an observer says "you ended their story" that shouldn't be interpreted as plot manipulation, but that is roughly what is happening here.
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If Plot Manipulation is based on how we interpret things, would you be fine with a "Possibly"?
 
Transcending said:
If Plot Manipulation is based on how we interpret things, would you be fine with a "Possibly"?
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Personally, no, I don't think the level of certainty is high enough to mention it. I do not see how any aspect of Death Metal can be considered metafictional.
 
Then I think we should wait for other members to come in and give their input on what they think is best.

Is metafiction necessary though? From what I understand from what Dread said, destroying/creating stories along with affecting their reality is enough for Plot Manip.
 
Deagonx said:
I see that now. I don't think your description of the situation that led him to agree is accurate.

We have a very small number of vague references to "stories" which can very easily and sensibly be interpreted as metaphor rather than metafiction. I do not think we should apply plot manipulation without a clear indication of metafiction.

If you kill someone and an observer says "you ended their story" that shouldn't be interpreted as plot manipulation, but that is roughly what is happening here.
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But did he not show that he destroyed the book, which basically possibly destroyed the reality = multiverse?
Also, can you tell me much about the stories he wrote?

I don't see any manipulation as well, but if it is proven that the book = multiverse, and he destroyed it which affects the reality, it seems limited plot manipulation for me. I don't know much, I just want to know the context.
 
Dread said:
But did he not show that he destroyed the book, which basically possibly destroyed the reality = multiverse?
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I am not currently in a position to re-read the comic, but I have not seen any scans that indicated physically damaging the book affected reality. If someone could point me to evidence otherwise, I would be open to that.

Dread said:
Also, can you tell me much about the stories he wrote?
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He was writing stories, so much as he was documenting them. He would document the events of each multiverse, he wasn't the author of these stories, just a "Chronicler." That's why he's called Chronicler.
 
Deagonx said:
He was writing stories, so much as he was documenting them. He would document the events of each multiverse, he wasn't the author of these stories, just a "Chronicler." That's why he's called Chronicler.
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I think Dread was referring to the stories of The Last 52 and not what the Chronicler did
 
I agree with Deagon in most of Death Metal context, stories for the most part are referenced as events or a spefici detail of a certain aspect of something else such as the Multiverse.

The stories playing out don’t seem to be meta fictional and more so play into how the events unfold. Chrocincler document events in his books and that they are stories of those “Multiverses.” It similar with Featherine seeing lower reality and being as “fiction” and their “stories” she can manipulate. If it was more meta fictional we would be more sense on a higher analysis and well that also depends on the word plot. Is it the narratives on writing the story of Death Metal or the events in which transpires as that set narrative(Within the comics not anything beyond what 4wall break we see). Either way it’s not really meta-fictional and even during IF with Darkseid being “editor” still is within restrictions of fiction, thus meta-fictional as for Death Metal it’s hard to say. It doesn’t seem like it.
 
However for Plot Manipulation defense being, that much weaker characters than Perpetua or TDK has broken 4th Walls, have meta contextuality, or straight up are meta fictional. So we can still argue for it, but it’s not mentioned often but I agree to Plot Manipulation not limited as it doesn’t add up or make any sense to be any less. There should be tiers to Plot Manipulation in return as an opposition to giving this to the two.
 
Deagonx said:
Being stronger than a being with plot manip doesn't necessarily give you plot manip though.
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This is just to upscale and in doing so put her higher. For the most part she can manipulate the “plot” in some way and if these lesser beings can do this no problem there is nothing to suggest the others couldn’t. It’s not to argue if it gets her that but it ultimately highlights that she can possess the power and in turn after what we seen she has and to make evident of it is more powerful than them. At this point we should focus on Plot Manipulation either we give her the full power or like some suggest used limited Plot Manipulation. Honestly we don’t see her use this power much if not at all but like anything just because she didn’t, doesn’t mean she does not possess it and being above the beings who does speak at least to the potential of this idea.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
This is just to upscale and in doing so put her higher. For the most part she can manipulate the “plot” in some way and if these lesser beings can do this no problem there is nothing to suggest the others couldn’t. It’s not to argue if it gets her that but it ultimately highlights that she can possess the power and in turn after what we seen she has and to make evident of it is more powerful than them. At this point we should focus on Plot Manipulation either we give her the full power or like some suggest used limited Plot Manipulation. Honestly we don’t see her use this power much if not at all but like anything just because she didn’t, doesn’t mean she does not possess it and being above the beings who does speak at least to the potential of this idea.
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No, mate, this does not justify anything. If you are stronger or upscale, higher does not grant you an ability.
 
Dread said:
No, mate, this does not justify anything. If you are stronger or upscale, higher does not grant you an ability.
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You also miss a lot more I said. @Transcending has some valid point in this justifications. This was me only adding upon the idea in certain category to help this case such as scaling, context feat, and the story itself in which we can use these as evidence. I was only wrapping up some points and if you need justification I can bring the scans and actual evidence. I suggest you read for full context rather than nitpick some points as if I made them the only point for the claim I made. I was giving a brief overview not a detailed explanation.
 
Is it good enough now? We have only one disagreement and 5-6 agreements and more than that if we count the people who said the entire post was fine.
 
Confluctor said:
The current tier 1s of DC have terrible scaling. There is no need for the low 1c stuff based on bleed shaking. Like that's just a minor after effect of their clash.

Although if the cosmology split is meant to happen any time in the next two months, then it should probably be handled
Transcending said:
All scans from Death Metal #7

So this is what is currently stated in The Darkest Knight's profile:

Let's see the statements for TDK>Hands and then I will explain why TDK didn't contradict himself.

​

Darkest Knight>Hands​


There are four main statements for this.

Scan 1. This scan is not as blatant as the other scans but it does give the implication that TDK is superior to The Hands. This scan is also the most popular one used by fans to claim TDK>

Scan 2. This scan is very blatant. When Wonder Woman is about to defeat TDK by pushing him into the Death Sun, he explicitly says that he can kill The Hands.

Scan 3. This scan is by far the best evidence, as The Hands themselves directly confirm their inferiority to TDK. They quite literally mention how WW saved them from him. This makes sense, considering TDK was consistently portrayed in the storyline to be a threat to the entire Multiverse, all creation and existence.

Scan 4. This is the controversial scan, TDK explicitly states again that he could kill The Hands but due to some misinterpretation of the text, some have been led to believe he contradicted himself on that statement. I will address this here.

The Darkest Knight did not contradict himself​


The controversy comes from the third speech bubble of the scan. I will state the entire quote here:

The keyword there is "will". What does will mean? According to google: expressing the future tense.

He's not saying that the Hands are presently stronger than him, he's saying that they will get stronger than him in the future if WW fights him. You may think I am playing with semantics, but I am not, because when you look at the larger context, it makes perfect sense.

Let's take a look at what's happening in the scan. TDK tells WW that she has only two choices.

1: In the first choice, she would fight him pointlessly until the Hands get more powerful than them and destroy the Universe.

2: In the second choice, she would not fight him but would rather give up and surrender. In this case, TDK would go kill The Hands and then give WW and her friends a paradise.

What he's saying basically, is not that The Hands are stronger than him. If that was the case, the second choice would make no sense. What he's saying is that, if WW fights him, they would both get weakened and this in turn would make the Hands superior to them. The Hands are, not in their base, superior, but they are, when TDK and WW are not at their prime. This is especially strengthened by the fact that TDK was powered up by Crisis Energy while WW was powered up by Anti-Crisis Energy. Neither of those energies are unlimited, if used too much, they can end. They are limited power sources that needs to be recharged. Granted, both TDK and WW did have strong supplies, but just a point to note.

Now assume my interpretation is the truth. There wouldn't be any contradiction(which there shouldn't be for nigh-omniscient characters anyway). TDK is merely saying that he's more powerful in his base form, but weaker in his lesser forms. The Hands themselves confirm this, making it pretty much legit.

Something irrelevant to the rest of my post​

Not really relevant to the rest of my post, and not something I care about nearly as much, but I asked in the Q&A forum if Perpetua and TDK gets plot manip for ripping apart stories and the answer was a yes

The Hands can also destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua and co. should get Plot Manip?

Conclusion​


The Darkest Knight doesn't just possibly scale to the Hands, he fully and completely scales to, and above them. He should hence lose his "possibly".

Also, while counterarguments are welcome(I am all for a good discussion), please remember to be civil. Insults take away the fun after all!

EDIT: The CRT was passed and applied but now we have to worry about In-Multiverse Perpetua's ratings. Here's why I think she should get a possibly/likely/solid 1-A too.

1: The power to create the Source Wall(1-A) wasn't enough to beat her when she was weakened(Justice League #33)

2: She could rival The Darkest Knight who is now no longer Low 1-C but a solid 1-A(Death Metal: Rise of the New God)

3: The Anti-Monitor when becoming the Ultra-Monitor said he was beyond anything he was before, which would include his True Form(1-A). A weakened Perpetua not only matched the Ultra-Monitor but he also admitted his power alone wasn't enough to beat her(still weakened)(Justice League #33)
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I agree with this, TDK has plot Manip and is easily 1-A, Hope this gets for the other characters like Darksied
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