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DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

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Transcending said:
Not just that, but TDK was also holding back and SPB killed himself punching him. Considering this TDK didn't have his crisis energies and was weakened by Perpetua beforehand as well, I am fine with Unknown.

The profile also states that TDK admitted he couldn't beat SPB, but looking at the context of the story, it's pretty clear that this was part of his manipulation.

One thing SPB did do however, is destroy the Last 52 which contains 52 universes, so a Low Multiversal feat. We could also use this to scale TDK's Pre-Crisis energy key
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at least Low Multiversal, safest for him. Lol

In conclusion. which characters will be fixed?
 
Pain makes sense.

But to make it clear if this comes up again, the reasoning for the rejection isn't "it's not metafictional enough", it's that destroying lower-D worlds isn't actually manipulating a plot, it's just AP, and the other stuff sounds like metaphors, rather than literal alterations of stories underlying reality.

Literally, the stories he destroyed effect reality. Which ability do you call that?

If by "effect reality", you mean "destroying lower worlds makes those worlds no longer exist", then no ability would be granted, because that's just a natural effect of such a destruction feat.

If you mean "this character can tear up a piece of paper with a drawing of a person on it, resulting in that person standing next to them being torn to pieces", then it'd be Damage Transferal I guess.
 
High-Godly Healing seems fine to me, and Power Absorption for TDK as well.

I will unlock The Hands (DC Comics), Perpetua, and The Batman Who Laughs. Do you need any other pages unlocked as well?
 
Antvasima said:
High-Godly Healing seems fine to me, and Power Absorption for TDK as well.

I will unlock The Hands (DC Comics), Perpetua, and The Batman Who Laughs. Do you need any other pages unlocked as well?
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Also what do you think about Superboy-Prime? Should we downgrade him to Low Multi?
 
Well, a 1-A statistic seems like a massive outlier, but please elaborate/give further context please.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, a 1-A statistic seems like a massive outlier, but please elaborate/give further context please.
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Basically, he's Low Complex right now because he could fight a weakened TDK. TDK being weakened is stated in the profile itself, but, the way TDK was weakened is that he lost his access to Crisis Energy. We rate TDK without Crisis Energy currently as Unknown, so the Low Complex logic doesn't hold.

Along with that, TDK was also holding back and him saying he couldn't kill SPB was simply a part of his manipulation which is clear when you read the story. TDK was trying to recruit SPB into his army. And this is not even mentioning the fact that all of SPB's punches, except his last one, didn't seem to affect TDK much, and that last one was SPB overexerting himself to the point the power of the punch killed himself.

So SPB explicitly doesn't scale to TDK, however, in the story he managed to destroy TDK's Multiverse which consists of 52 universes so that's a Low Multi feat. And considering the TDK he fought didn't have his crisis energy, we can scale TDK's first key to Low Multi as well.


In Conclusion, I believe SPB should neither be 1-A nor Low 1-C but just 2-C. TDK's first key should scale to SPB so that should be upgraded from Unknown to 2-C
 
Thank you for the explanation.

However, wouldn't it work better if we simply change Prime's Death Metal event tier from Low 1-C to Unknown instead then? 2-C seems too low for somebody with Doctor Manhattan's powers.
 
Wally West with the Mobius chair/anti-crisis energy should be a 1-A since the one who laughs wanted his energy to kill Perpetua.
 
Also Doctor Manhattan should be a 1-A FRA.

And Superboy Prime in Death Metal matched the Darkest Knight sooooo...
 
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Eseseso said:
Wally West with the Mobius chair/anti-crisis energy should be a 1-A since the one who laughs wanted his energy to kill Perpetua.
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I disagree, he could only flee TDK (before crisis energy) and that's not his achievement but of TDK, Anti-crisis energy + TDK (before crisis energy) > Perpetua. TDK not wally
 
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Eseseso said:
And Superboy Prime in Death Metal matched the Darkest Knight sooooo.
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That wouldn't work due to the context I explained above

Transcending said:
Basically, he's Low Complex right now because he could fight a weakened TDK. TDK being weakened is stated in the profile itself, but, the way TDK was weakened is that he lost his access to Crisis Energy. We rate TDK without Crisis Energy currently as Unknown, so the Low Complex logic doesn't hold.

Along with that, TDK was also holding back and him saying he couldn't kill SPB was simply a part of his manipulation which is clear when you read the story. TDK was trying to recruit SPB into his army. And this is not even mentioning the fact that all of SPB's punches, except his last one, didn't seem to affect TDK much, and that last one was SPB overexerting himself to the point the power of the punch killed himself.

So SPB explicitly doesn't scale to TDK, however, in the story he managed to destroy TDK's Multiverse which consists of 52 universes so that's a Low Multi feat. And considering the TDK he fought didn't have his crisis energy, we can scale TDK's first key to Low Multi as well.


In Conclusion, I believe SPB should neither be 1-A nor Low 1-C but just 2-C. TDK's first key should scale to SPB so that should be upgraded from Unknown to 2-C
Click to expand...
 
Since TDK without Crisis Energy+Wally's energy= 1-A(scaling to Perpetua), and we know Wally<TDK, wouldn't TDK without Crisis Energy need to be 1-A as well? After all, any lower tier added twice wouldn't reach 1-A, like Low 1-A+Low 1-A=Low 1-A, not 1-A.

So the only way TDK(without CE)+Wally>1-A(Perpetua) can happen is if TDK himself was 1-A.

I definitely disagree with SPB getting to 1-A though. Even if this feat is 1-A for him, it would be an unimaginably big outlier.
 
Transcending said:
Since TDK without Crisis Energy+Wally's energy= 1-A(scaling to Perpetua), and we know Wally<TDK, wouldn't TDK without Crisis Energy need to be 1-A as well? After all, any lower tier added twice wouldn't reach 1-A, like Low 1-A+Low 1-A=Low 1-A, not 1-A.

So the only way TDK(without CE)+Wally>1-A(Perpetua) can happen is if TDK himself was 1-A.

I definitely disagree with SPB getting to 1-A though. Even if this feat is 1-A for him, it would be an unimaginably big outlier.
Click to expand...
Agree with you
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
If he gets infinitely stronger feats in death metal, then he's just infinitely stronger than his past self. You'd need evidence of it being an outlier
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Then if Batman was to potentially one shot Superman in a new comic, would you say Batman should be upgraded to 4-B?

An Outlier is a feat that is completely inconsistent with how a character is normally portrayed. A single instance of him fighting TDK is completely inconsistent with how he is normally portrayed.
 
Transcending said:
Then if Batman was to potentially one shot Superman in a new comic, would you say Batman should be upgraded to 4-B?
Click to expand...
By default yes, just that it would usually be contradicted in a later issue so the chances of it happening are slim

A single instance of him fighting TDK is completely inconsistent with how he is normally portrayed.
Click to expand...

SBP could have easily changed over the years dude, Kryptonians grow stronger at different rates
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
By default yes, just that it would usually be contradicted in a later issue so the chances of it happening are slim
Click to expand...
No it wouldn't. The definition of an outlier is not a feat that is shown inconsistent in future instances. It's just a feat being inconsistent with other consistent feats. Whether the other feats happen in the future or the past doesn't matter.

Copying from the wiki page-
An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power
Click to expand...
Normal displayed level of power, not future displayed level of power.

XXKINGXX69 said:
SBP could have easily changed over the years dude, Kryptonians grow stronger at different rates
Click to expand...
Even if he could, using that as evidence would be an Appeal to Possibility. There's no canon statement that he got infinitely stronger, just a single feat.

Additionally, as stated in the third guideline for Outliers-
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier.
Click to expand...
The second guideline is also important-
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards.
Click to expand...
Third incident, not the first.

Of course, the first guideline is the most important.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?
Click to expand...
Going from Tier 2-Low Tier 1 to 1-A is certainly a big jump in power.
 
Here’s what I don’t get. We allow SBP to get low 1-C for fighting TDK just fine, but all of a sudden because TDK gets an upgrade, SBP’s feat becomes somehow invalid, like the jump from tier 2 to low 1-C is any less ridiculous than the jump between tier 2 and 1-A.

what I further don’t get, is why we’re treating the “1-A” as a big no, when we all know it’s likely gonna be high 1-C after the cosmology split.

so pretending “1-A is too high” is just silly.

I feel like I’m ranting and I am behind on this thread so I could just be rambling about nonsense, but in general, we shouldn’t be talking about 1-A anything. For all intents and purposes this is a scaling thread, and the tiers are placeholders for the most part.
 
Also, might I add, I think we should take into consideration who wrote this fight and compare it to who wrote his last appearance. I don’t think it’s fair that we only split the cosmology by author, character powers and feats likely also fluctuate with authors.
 
Transcending said:
No it wouldn't. The definition of an outlier is not a feat that is shown inconsistent in future instances. It's just a feat being inconsistent with other consistent feats. Whether the other feats happen in the future or the past doesn't matter.

Copying from the wiki page-

Normal displayed level of power, not future displayed level of power.


Even if he could, using that as evidence would be an Appeal to Possibility. There's no canon statement that he got infinitely stronger, just a single feat.

Additionally, as stated in the third guideline for Outliers-

The second guideline is also important-

Third incident, not the first.

Of course, the first guideline is the most important.

Going from Tier 2-Low Tier 1 to 1-A is certainly a big jump in power.
Click to expand...
This is like using Saiyan Saga anti feats to say Goku is weaker than Frieza in the Buu Saga or something. You can't use old feats as anti feats. His "normal" display of power is from his past self

Even if he could, using that as evidence would be an Appeal to Possibility. There's no canon statement that he got infinitely stronger, just a single feat.
Click to expand...

There's no canon statement that its an outlier either


3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier.
Click to expand...

Not every single thing needs an explanation. Superboy Prime could have just either trained or gained power from sunlight to grow stronger, like how kryptonians such as Superman can go from surviving 4-B attacks to surviving the death of all creation in where is thy sting, or shattering Neron's infinite realities when he was amped by his love. So Kryptonians getting infinitely stronger isn't something new

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?
Click to expand...

Appeal to incredulity. SBP has 4-B to tier 2 feats in post crisis, and years later, is stronger than ever so he should just be tier 1.

There is also people like Hal Jordan jumping from 2-C likely 2-A all the way to 4-B after the crisis even though no explanation was given for his big drop in power
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
This is like using Saiyan Saga anti feats to say Goku is weaker than Frieza in the Buu Saga or something. You can't use old feats as anti feats. His "normal" display of power is from his past self



There's no canon statement that its an outlier either




Not every single thing needs an explanation. Superboy Prime could have just either trained or gained power from sunlight to grow stronger, like how kryptonians such as Superman can go from surviving 4-B attacks to surviving the death of all creation in where is thy sting, or shattering Neron's infinite realities when he was amped by his love. So Kryptonians getting infinitely stronger isn't something new



Appeal to incredulity. SBP has 4-B to tier 2 feats in post crisis, and years later, is stronger than ever so he should just be tier 1.

There is also people like Hal Jordan jumping from 2-C likely 2-A all the way to 4-B after the crisis even though no explanation was given for his big drop in power
Click to expand...
when was SBP's last appearance published?
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
This is like using Saiyan Saga anti feats to say Goku is weaker than Frieza in the Buu Saga or something. You can't use old feats as anti feats. His "normal" display of power is from his past self
Click to expand...
You can use old anti-feats if his new feats aren't consistent. You need 3+ feats on the same level at the very least to prove consistency.
XXKINGXX69 said:
There's no canon statement that its an outlier either
Click to expand...
Why would there need to be? The person making the positive claim here(SPB is 1-A) is still you, you will need to provide all your evidences. I simply need to prove your evidences aren't solid.
XXKINGXX69 said:
Not every single thing needs an explanation.
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I am aware, which is why the page says "probably" and not "definitely", meaning the chance of it being an outlier is high but not complete. To make it complete is why I provided two more guidelines.
XXKINGXX69 said:
Superboy Prime could have just either trained or gained power from sunlight to grow stronger
Click to expand...
This would be an Appeal to Possibility, you will need to show some solid proof he did these.
XXKINGXX69 said:
like how kryptonians such as Superman can go from surviving 4-B attacks to surviving the death of all creation in where is thy sting, or shattering Neron's infinite realities when he was amped by his love. So Kryptonians getting infinitely stronger isn't something new
Click to expand...
The wiki considers the former feat to be a dream and the latter feat to be an illusion. I personally disagree with the wiki on this but unless you can change how the wiki views these feats, they wouldn't be valid in our argument.
XXKINGXX69 said:
Appeal to incredulity. SBP has 4-B to tier 2 feats in post crisis, and years later, is stronger than ever so he should just be tier 1.
Click to expand...
1: Was he stated canonically to be stronger than ever?

2: He could be Tier 1, but we aren't talking just Tier 1. We are talking 1-A. Going from Tier 2 to Tier 1 requires just one qualitative superiority, going from Tier 2 to 1-A requires Aleph 2 amount of qualitative superiorities. That certainly needs lots more evidence.
XXKINGXX69 said:
There is also people like Hal Jordan jumping from 2-C likely 2-A all the way to 4-B after the crisis even though no explanation was given for his big drop in power
Click to expand...
1: Never said an explanation needs to be given. It can still happen without an explanation, just that you would need more proof to counter the corresponding guideline.

2: They mention "raw willpower" as a reason.
 
I'm gonna unfollow. Someone ping me if the plot manip topic comes up again.
 
Would you be willing to update our SBP page to what I accepted earlier, Transcending?
 
Transcending said:
Basically, he's Low Complex right now because he could fight a weakened TDK. TDK being weakened is stated in the profile itself, but, the way TDK was weakened is that he lost his access to Crisis Energy. We rate TDK without Crisis Energy currently as Unknown, so the Low Complex logic doesn't hold.

Along with that, TDK was also holding back and him saying he couldn't kill SPB was simply a part of his manipulation which is clear when you read the story. TDK was trying to recruit SPB into his army. And this is not even mentioning the fact that all of SPB's punches, except his last one, didn't seem to affect TDK much, and that last one was SPB overexerting himself to the point the power of the punch killed himself.

So SPB explicitly doesn't scale to TDK, however, in the story he managed to destroy TDK's Multiverse which consists of 52 universes so that's a Low Multi feat. And considering the TDK he fought didn't have his crisis energy, we can scale TDK's first key to Low Multi as well.


In Conclusion, I believe SPB should neither be 1-A nor Low 1-C but just 2-C. TDK's first key should scale to SPB so that should be upgraded from Unknown to 2-C
Click to expand...
Oh thank god since a 1-A Super boy would be ridiculous,
 
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