A possible new rule for gender sections in our character profile pages

[AKM sama]

Nothing about "any further details can be provided in the summary if need be" is encouraging anyone to do so. It is just a general direction since people may not know where to put it if they want. I think you're being waaaaayy too oversensitive here.

 

[Antvasima]

Nothing about "any further details can be provided in the summary if need be" is encouraging anyone to do so. It is just a general direction since people may not know where to put it if they want. I think you're being waaaaayy too oversensitive here.

Well, it is more that I don't want any hurt feeling and grudges to potentially severely sour our long-term abilities to collaborate in a constructive manner in this community. I personally do not particularly mind either way.

 

[The_Impress]

We're not ignorant. We just see things differently to you. Just because somebody sees something differently to you doesn't mean they're missing some vital information or belief that will adjust them to the "correct" viewpoint.

If you see a world where a person's dysphoria is worth invalidating because of the irrelevant field in a debate site is more important to contain irrelevant information, you need to get your eyes checked. This is basically admission, Damage.

 

[The_Impress]

Nothing about "any further details can be provided in the summary if need be" is encouraging anyone to do so. It is just a general direction since people may not know where to put it if they want.

Unnecessary directions.

I think you're being waaaaayy too oversensitive here.

Thank you for your judgement on what my community should instead feel like, outsider.

This is getting really blunt as to what it's meant to be, so I'll suggest improve on what you're typing out.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well, it is more that I don't want any hurt feeling and grudges to potentially severely sour our long-term abilities to collaborate in a constructive manner in this community. I personally do not particularly mind either way.

I would say that isn't an attempt at a lecture from me... but that'll sound like another lecture, so whatever.



People having a different opinion to you doesn't mean they're being inconsiderate or disrespectful. You just seem ultra-fixated on your perspective being the only correct one.



We're not ignorant. We just see things differently to you. Just because somebody sees something differently to you doesn't mean they're missing some vital information or belief that will adjust them to the "correct" viewpoint.

Can we at least agree with putting two guidelines from Community Central wiki on the site rules? That was overlooked when we keep on debating on specific points

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Impress; AKM wasn't speaking about what your community was or should be feeling like, he was speaking about you. You seem to be taking a comment on yourself as a comment on the entire trans community.

 

[Antvasima]

Drop the accusations please. Damage is an admin or bureaucrat in dozens of wikis. He is just obsessively dedicated to accurately indexing all valid information. It isn't even remotely about ideology or bigotry, just about obsession with details and accuracy. That is all. Quite a lot of us here are like that, particularly those of us who are autistic.

 

[AKM sama]

Bruh

 

[Antvasima]

@The_Impress; AKM wasn't speaking about what your community was or should be feeling like, he was speaking about you. You seem to be taking a comment on yourself as a comment on the entire trans community.

Yes, and official organisations that genuinely represent the trans community largely decided Fandom's standards, and those of international corporations that also use them, in the first place. It would be a very different issue if any pages deliberately genuinely misgendered people. I am willing to adjust in order to maintain the peace here, but it is just not factually true to claim that your views are those of the actual majority.

 

[Antvasima]

Bruh

Did I say something wrong?

 

[ElixirBlue]

He is just obsessively dedicated to accurately index all valid information. It isn't even remotely about ideology or bigotry, just about obsession with details and accuracy.

I do want to mention that I am one of those people. I don’t even identify myself with my gender but I also don’t care to label myself with anything other than my individualist name. That’s my viewpoint.

 

[AKM sama]

Did I say something wrong?

No, just having a hard time comprehending Impress' last comment. Not to mention the tone is way too hostile and confrontational for absolutely no reason. But anyway, sticking to the topic at hand, I feel that direction is necessary and does no harm. So if others are fine with it, we should go ahead and make the changes.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Did I say something wrong?

Could been referred to Impress, but I am more concerned with having to link two guidelines from Fandom community central wiki as well as where this going.

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress; AKM wasn't speaking about what your community was or should be feeling like, he was speaking about you. You seem to be taking a comment on yourself as a comment on the entire trans community.

When I am discussing what is offensive to prominent parts of the trans community and you say otherwise you're giving your opinions on what trans community is offended about.

If you're gonna null context for every other message of mine, Damage, you should try to address your colossal fuckups better than just "sorry but I'm doing it anyways".

Drop the accusations please. Damage is an admin or bureaucrat in dozens of wikis. He is just obsessively dedicated to accurately index all valid information. It isn't even remotely about ideology or bigotry, just about obsession with details and accuracy. That is all. Quite a lot of us here are like that, particularly those of us who are autistic.

Those of us who are autistic then should be bluntly familiar with getting discomforted beyond a reasonable degree to break down or resort to drastic actions when something which should look like "no issue" to others is a severe issue to you to cause distress, yet nobody seems to understand and double down against it as "well another person I know with the condition isn't afflicted, why are you so sensitive".

You're not having a ******* picnic in dysphoria, triggers are actual misery, and forcing some character a person may identify with to be listed a hyperspecific way that is offensive can cause spirals.

This is actually ******* horrendous to talk to when your response to me saying something is offensive is ******* minimizing it, or saying I'm the one being offensive for calling out your shit.

The sheer fact I'm only arguing here and not doing anything further is enough to demonstrate the resolve I have for AKM and Damage vehemently dismissing basic facts of dysphoria for a ******* hour.

 

[Antvasima]

No, just having a hard time comprehending Impress' last comment. Not to mention the tone is way too hostile and confrontational for absolutely no reason. But anyway, sticking to the topic at hand, I feel that direction is necessary and does no harm. So if others are fine with it, we should go ahead and make the changes.

Okay. That is good then.

I also think that Impress has been way too aggressive and disrespectful here.

Should somebody add my rule text draft then?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Okay. That is good then.

I also think that Impress has been way too aggressive and disrespectful here.

Should somebody add my rule text draft then?

Did you also include the links from Community Central Wiki as the guidelines should been there to know that we decided to take a different approach from what they doing in their guidelines? Kinda confused anyway

 

[Antvasima]

When I am discussing what is offensive to prominent parts of the trans community and you say otherwise you're giving your opinions on what trans community is offended about.

If you're gonna null context for every other message of mine, Damage, you should try to address your colossal fuckups better than just "sorry but I'm doing it anyways".

Those of us who are autistic then should be bluntly familiar with getting discomforted beyond a reasonable degree to break down or resort to drastic actions when something which should look like "no issue" to others is a severe issue to you to cause distress, yet nobody seems to understand and double down against it as "well another person I know with the condition isn't afflicted, why are you so sensitive".

You're not having a ******* picnic in dysphoria, triggers are actual misery, and forcing some character a person may identify with to be listed a hyperspecific way that is offensive can cause spirals.

This is actually ******* horrendous to talk to when your response to me saying something is offensive is ******* minimizing it, or saying I'm the one being offensive for calling out your shit.

The sheer fact I'm only arguing here and not doing anything further is enough to demonstrate the resolve I have for AKM and Damage vehemently dismissing basic facts of dysphoria for a ******* hour.

Well, I am obviously sorry if you are feeling hurt about this, but the issues weren't about just knowing somebody else, it was about that actual official organisations that represent trans-people decided the standards that you are upset about in the first place, combined with that autistic people tend to be very compulsively fixated on including all available information. That is all. There is no malicious agenda at play here.

 

[The_Impress]

Well, I am obviously sorry if you are feeling hurt about this,

Doesn't become apparent exactly.

but the issues weren't about just knowing somebody else, it was about that actual official organisations that represent trans-people decided the standards that you are upset about in the first place,

In.

Specific.

Necessary.

Contexts.

That.

The.

Vs.

Debate.

Wiki.

Doesn't.

Meet.

The sheer fact every single trans person that did input on the thread went against AKM and especially Damage's proposal can show shit.

combined with that autistic people tend to be very compulsively fixated on including all available information. That is all.

Comprehend it is offensive, the 90 billion times I must say it, it is offensive, and causes emotional distress, it's a blatant dysphoria trigger. So don't do it.

What's AKM's excuse anyways for this?

There is no malicious agenda at play here.

Damage literally said to my face his "different worldview" puts transphobia at the risk of bullshit stat accuracy as valid, he isn't missing info, it's just how it is.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Impress; simply offending someone without intent or malice is not a "colossal ****-up". Everybody is offended by something.

I've already accepted the new rule that has been decided on for this, but simply feeling strongly about a topic or being personally offended does not make a person more accurate about it.

We're not "dismissing facts about dysphoria" here. You've given your personal account of your experiences with it, and what you experience is a fact, sure, but us believing in a different way of presenting information doesn't mean we're dismissing your experience out of hand. Not everyone is going to have the same experience or perspective that you have. It's just not reasonable to expect everyone to see things the same way you do.

Damage literally said to my face his "different worldview" puts transphobia at the risk of bullshit stat accuracy as valid, he isn't missing info, it's just how it is.

I don't see it as transphobia. I know we'll probably not see eye to eye on this, but I can't just accept something is there that I don't see is there.

Also, I have to specify that I didn't "literally" say that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

So something like this:

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages, and only list the gender that they identify as in this section of the pages in question, not anything further. Any further details can be provided in the summary if need be."

LGBTQIA+ Resources

Fandom is a diverse place, and we want to make sure that everyone feels comfortable and welcome. Recently we've been looking at our LGBTQIA+ community and striving to provide the right environment for people of all sexualities and gender identities. Many of the staff at Fandom are on the...

community.fandom.com

Gender Identity Guidelines

Fandom is a diverse place, both in terms of our community and in the breadth of content that our wikis chronicle. Whether the topic at hand takes place in a real world setting or in a fictional construct, it is important to document and describe individuals and events sensitively and...

community.fandom.com

What should we do about two links here?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this topic acts as a very discomfortable trigger for Impress, which is the reason for why we perceive her as being suddenly aggressive, so I am trying to be sympathetic about it.

In any case, given that we have already decided to apply this new editing rule, would you be willing to handle it, Damage?

 

[Antvasima]

LGBTQIA+ Resources

Fandom is a diverse place, and we want to make sure that everyone feels comfortable and welcome. Recently we've been looking at our LGBTQIA+ community and striving to provide the right environment for people of all sexualities and gender identities. Many of the staff at Fandom are on the...

community.fandom.com

Gender Identity Guidelines

Fandom is a diverse place, both in terms of our community and in the breadth of content that our wikis chronicle. Whether the topic at hand takes place in a real world setting or in a fictional construct, it is important to document and describe individuals and events sensitively and...

community.fandom.com

What should we do about two links here?

Well, the first one should probably be linked to somewhere in our site rules, and it is possible that we should link to the second in our editing rules in conjunction with the new rule text that I wrote above.

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress; simply offending someone without intent or malice is not a "colossal ****-up". Everybody is offended by something.

You're nitpicking every other message, it's not even about offensiveness there you're actually just making strawmen and mountains out of molehills.

I've already accepted the new rule that has been decided on for this, but simply feeling strongly about a topic or being personally offended does not make a person more accuracte about it.

Demonstrate me the exact ******* wording where I said it's about being accurate.

We're not "dismissing facts about dysphoria" here. You've given your personal account of your experiences with it, and what you experience is a fact, sure, but us believing in a different way of presenting information doesn't mean we're dismissing your experience out of hand. Not everyone is going to have the same experience or perspective that you have.

You believing in a way that discounts my experiences as trivial when you acknowledge it is a fact, is you dismissing facts about transphobia.

Your logic isn't consistent with itself.

It's just not reasonable to expect everyone to see things the same way you do.

It is reasonable to expect people can realize that their opinion is uninformed or inaccurate and they retrace or at least abandon that opinion. This is basic ***** cornerstone of debating. Don't be on a debate site if you don't believe a person isn't convinceable.

I don't see it as transphobia. I know we'll probably not see eye to eye on this, but I can't just accept something is there that I don't see is there.

If you don't see triggering someone's dysphoria or labelling them as offensive I don't see how you're not being ignorant as shit. Your statement currently is "yes I'm transphobic according to you but I am not transphobic according to myself". This is a terrible ******* look, man.

In any case, given that we have already decided to apply this new editing rule, would you be willing to handle it, Damage?

I completely disagree with applying AKM's variant of it, that's only accepted by Damage as far as I can tell,.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It seems like this topic acts as a very discomfortable trigger for Impress, which is the reason for why we perceive her as being suddenly aggressive, so I am trying to be sympathetic about it.

In any case, given that we have already decided to apply this new editing rule, would you be willing to handle it, Damage?

Well, I not familiar with Impress myself anyway. Could just us being frustrated or something. Anyway back to this part.

Well, the first one should probably be linked to somewhere in our site rules, and it is possible that we should link to the second in our editing rules in conjunction with the new rule text that I wrote above.

I am fine with that as long as we don’t cause problems with Fandom.

 

[Antvasima]

I completely disagree with applying AKM's variant of it, that's only accepted by Damage as far as I can tell,.

We will apply my version as far as I am aware.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

We will apply my version as far as I am aware.

Wait, what was your version? I hoping we account for the Fandom Guidelines as I really don’t want to push our luck with Fandom staff if they decide to do a review anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

I was responding to Impress.

 

[Damage3245]

You're nitpicking every other message, it's not even about offensiveness there you're actually just making strawmen and mountains out of molehills.

In that case we're both guilty of that.

Demonstrate me the exact ******* wording where I said it's about being accurate.

You didn't say it, I did. As far as I can tell, we're removing information not because it is inaccurate but because it is triggering to certain people. As a wiki editor who is trying to objective, that kind of thing does make me a bit uneasy. It's not because of any negative emotion I feel towards the trans community, trans users or trans chararacters. It's just my perspective as an editor.

You believing in a way that discounts my experiences as trivial when you acknowledge it is a fact, is you dismissing facts about transphobia.

I don't think my beliefs make anyone's experiences on this trivial. It's just one part of the discussion on this.

If you don't see triggering someone's dysphoria or labelling them as offensive I don't see how you're not being ignorant as shit. Your statement currently is "yes I'm transphobic according to you but I am not transphobic according to myself". This is a terrible ******* look, man.

Yes; somebody could label me as transphobic. That person themselves can also be wrong about that. It's irrelevant how "terrible" that looks. Just because somebody labels me incorrectly doesn't mean I have to just accept it.

It is reasonable to expect people can realize that their opinion is uninformed or inaccurate and they retrace or at least abandon that opinion. This is basic ***** cornerstone of debating. Don't be on a debate site if you don't believe a person isn't convinceable.

Right, I agree with you there. It's just that I'm more convinced by the earlier arguments about what kind of a wiki VS Battles is, than about it being considered offensive to a subset of users.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, given that we have already decided to apply this new editing rule, would you be willing to handle it, Damage?

So about this...

 

[Damage3245]

I'm occupied at the moment. Could somebody else handle it?

 

[Antvasima]

I will already likely go to bed at 4:00 in the morning my time, due to all of the work I have had to do today.

 

[Jibz]

I will already likely go to bed at 4:00 in the morning my time, due to all of the work I have had to do today.

Ant make sure to take breaks and relax. I may not like some of your actions, but you are the hardest worker on this wiki for sure

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with the spirit of Ant's wording, but I think the exact wording of "only list the gender that they identify as in this section of the pages in question, not anything further" leaves too little wiggle room for the variety of strange situations we have. Characters who possess/inhabit dozens or even millions of bodies, who shapeshift regularly leaving their gender unclear. I'm concerned that the suggested wording would disallow that sort of thing when it probably shouldn't.

Also, linking to FANDOM's resources/guidelines pages feels a bit unnecessary. Since we're changing the standards a bit for our needs, I think it'd mostly add confusion to link to theirs.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with the spirit of Ant's wording, but I think the exact wording of "only list the gender that they identify as in this section of the pages in question, not anything further" leaves too little wiggle room for the variety of strange situations we have. Characters who possess/inhabit dozens or even millions of bodies, who shapeshift regularly leaving their gender unclear. I'm concerned that the suggested wording would disallow that sort of thing when it probably shouldn't.

Okay. Feel free to write a new suggested rule text instead then. However, make certain to try to avoid any wordings that might be deemed offensive.

Also, linking to FANDOM's resources/guidelines pages feels a bit unnecessary. Since we're changing the standards a bit for our needs, I think it'd mostly add confusion to link to theirs.

Okay. Never mind then.

Ant make sure to take breaks and relax. I may not like some of your actions, but you are the hardest worker on this wiki for sure

Thank you for the well wishes.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I was responding to Impress.

Fair enough, but it seems you didn’t post it here

Okay. Feel free to write a new suggested rule text instead then. However, make certain to try to avoid any wordings that might be deemed offensive.

Okay. Never mind then.

Thank you for the well wishes.

Have a nice sleep.

@Agnaa I thought we should, but fair enough since we not adding the guidelines to character pages, but just the rules of VS Battle Wiki.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm, it's tricky, perhaps something like:

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

I can't think of a good way to fit the preferred pronouns thing into that same rule, but I'm also not sure how relevant that is, since it isn't really the issue at hand here.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do not mind, but it is quite tricky to entirely word things in an inoffensive manner nowadays, so I am not sure if our trans-members consider it acceptable.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Huh, there are also fictional robots/A.I.s that are referred to with male and female pronouns based on appearances and voice but don’t refer to themselves as anything specific…

 

[Agnaa]

Huh, there are also fictional robots/A.I.s that are referred to with male and female pronouns based on appearances and voice but don’t refer to themselves as anything specific…

That also seems outside of the scope of this thread. Can you please try to stick to the topic and not discuss stuff like this, or your earlier suggestion about how gender-based abilities function?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I will already likely go to bed at 4:00 in the morning my time, due to all of the work I have had to do today.

Please somebody should take over this.

Ant Sir go to bed lol.