Common Calculation Concerns: Skull Crushing and FTE Movement

[Ugarik]

You can see the force sensor on 7:00. It shows the block failing at about 1070 kN with its top half displaced by 0.654 mm. If you multiply those two values and divide the result by 2 you'll see how much work was done.

 

[KLOL506]

I think 300 joules is not too far off. The video I linked above shows it only takes 350 joules to crush a small cylindrical block of reinforced concrete. And something tells me that a human head is even less durable

I don't think he was talking about the concrete block thing. I think he was talking about my proposal of using shotgun shells, revolvers and other elephant gun calibers, though clarification from him would be appreciated.

 

[Jasonsith]

While I agree that the minumim effort to crush a human skull can go as easy as 9-C, we may also need to consider the mechanics used in different methods - some are more efficient and therefore uses less energy and force to do the same job.

Perhaps this may actually matter and therefore requires differentiation

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly?

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain what DontTalk should evaluate here exactly, so I can call for him?

 

[KLOL506]

Basically evaluate this:

I think the people trying to calc skull crushing at above 9-C are kinda missing the point.

In real life fields of science, when you do all your math and the result ends up with something different, then that's just a problem with your math. You can't really throw away what actually happened, so something must be wrong with what theoretically should have happened. Empirical testing trumps hypothetical math, every time.

I've already demonstrated with a very generous calc that even the heaviest elephant ever under rather wankish conditions flat out cannot be 9-B, and elephant skull crushing is rather well documented and certainly was not constantly using 10k pound elephants. We know from historical testing, then, that skull crushing can be done at sub 9-B amounts of energy output. As such, any calcs that contradict this without finding some issue there first are just kinda wrong by default, because testing always beats numbers.

I'd said that I couldn't find a good way to calculate it myself, but could find stuff to show that it couldn't be 9-B. Maybe someone else finds a better way to calc it, and we have a better value than >1072J or whatever the world record punch is rn. That would be neat, and more power to you if you find a way to do that, but if you run the numbers and come up with a higher minimum value than what we know really did accomplish the job in reality... it's just incorrect.

I really do think that all we can do in the meantime is just put it as a vaguely superhuman 9-C.

This:

For now I'd just recommend using bullets as the baseline for skull-busting, like shotgun shells or the .500 S&W Magnum blowing up heads easily, based on these videos (Those are around 3000-3700 J IIRC) (And this, which involves some elephant gun rounds).

And this:

Just for the record crushing a concrete block is about 350 J

I think 300 joules is not too far off. The video I linked above shows it only takes 350 joules to crush a small cylindrical block of reinforced concrete. And something tells me that a human head is even less durable

You can see the force sensor on 7:00. It shows the block failing at about 1070 kN with its top half displaced by 0.654 mm. If you multiply those two values and divide the result by 2 you'll see how much work was done.

And this:

While I agree that the minumim effort to crush a human skull can go as easy as 9-C, we may also need to consider the mechanics used in different methods - some are more efficient and therefore uses less energy and force to do the same job.

Perhaps this may actually matter and therefore requires differentiation

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask him.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calculation-concerns-skull-crushing-and-fte-movement.121051/post-4684459

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

What were the conclusions here?

Also what about skull crushing for LS?

 

[KLOL506]

What were the conclusions here?

FTE speed's already been handled, only skull-crushing remains, the proposals are in the comments above.

Also what about skull crushing for LS?

No idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask him.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calculation-concerns-skull-crushing-and-fte-movement.121051/post-4684459

@DontTalkDT

Your help would still be appreciated here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Basically evaluate this:



This:


And this:




And this:

Not really sure what to say regarding that. I guess it makes sense to go with experimental evidence for real-life stuff. However, I have no idea what the best value is in this case.

 

[KLOL506]

Not really sure what to say regarding that. I guess it makes sense to go with experimental evidence for real-life stuff. However, I have no idea what the best value is in this case.

So, prolly go with shotgun shells and gun variants then? Given that even MMA punches to the face and getting curbstomped can't do much to it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, prolly go with shotgun shells and gun variants then? Given that even MMA punches to the face and getting curbstomped can't do much to it.

Hmmm... maybe? Not sure if I should call it a high-end or a low-end. On one hat, shotgun shells probably have some piercing factor to them, making them a low-end when compared to blunt force crushing. On the other hand, it is quite possible that something less strong than a shotgun should also produce the result.

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmm... maybe? Not sure if I should call it a high-end or a low-end. On one hat, shotgun shells probably have some piercing factor to them, making them a low-end when compared to blunt force crushing. On the other hand, it is quite possible that something less strong than a shotgun should also produce the result.

Well, even with the piercing factor it takes two, and it takes expanding bullets (Ones that don't rely too much on piercing but expanding) not much effort at all. MMA punches are roughly above the 1100 J mark via KE alone BTW.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I guess that's ok then.

 

[KLOL506]

I guess that's ok then.

'Kay. Skull-busting being equal to shotgun slugs, .500 S&W Magnum rounds and .308 Winchester-slash-7.62x51mm NATO rounds, all of which are around the 3000-3700 or 3800 J mark.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I do have some knowledge on bones here. If we are talking about bones (like the ones in the skull), we should note that they adapt & develop depending on the stresses they're subject to in our lifetimes, along with other factors. Bones are accepted as 9-C - 9-C+ here though previous context suggests that everyone's bones are different depending on the person & their personal factors.

Stomps do fracture skulls & cause severe head injuries. They can go up to 4694 - 5970 N for females & 8494-9016 N for males at their peak.

Though what do we mean by crush in the context of this thread? Do we mean to break into smaller bits via something like force/pressure (likely definition), or to fracture the skull?

 

[KLOL506]

I do have some knowledge on bones here. If we are talking about bones (like the ones in the skull), we should note that they adapt & develop depending on the stresses they're subject to in our lifetimes, along with other factors. Bones are accepted as 9-C - 9-C+ here though previous context suggests that everyone's bones are different depending on the person & their personal factors.

Stomps do fracture skulls & cause severe head injuries. They can go up to 4694 - 5970 N for females & 8494-9016 N for males at their peak.

Yeah but they don't completely destroy the skull. Which is what we want.

Though what do we mean by crush in the context of this thread? Do we mean to break into smaller bits via something like force/pressure (likely definition), or to fracture the skull?

To completely destroy it, break it into smaller bits.

 

[Antvasima]

What DontTalk has accepted can probably be applied, as long as there is no significant disagreements from other staff members.

Which staff members have commented in this thread previously?

 

[KLOL506]

What DontTalk has accepted can probably be applied, as long as there is no significant disagreements from other staff members.

Which staff members have commented in this thread previously?

Eh let's see. Most of the staff only focused on the FTE part and completely forgot about the skull-crushing part, save for DMUA, Jasonsith and Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

But I can tag some calc group members to see what they think on the skull-crushing section.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @Therefir @Psychomaster35 What do y'all think on the above points for skull-crushing and downgrading it to the level of shotgun shells, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester rounds and .500 S&W Magnum expanding "Vaporizer" rounds that are all in the 3000-3700 J mark?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Shouldn't we find Skull Crushing for LS too?

 

[RoTt35]

Shouldn't we find Skull Crushing for LS too?

There is this article about that

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I mean if if we're downgrading skull crushing to 9-C/Peak Human LS, we could slap an "at least" part at the beginning of LS since regular stomps just fracture the damn thing, & the LS values we have here may just mean fracture or fully crushing the skull.

 

[Antvasima]

Eh let's see. Most of the staff only focused on the FTE part and completely forgot about the skull-crushing part, save for DMUA, Jasonsith and Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

But I can tag some calc group members to see what they think on the skull-crushing section.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @Therefir @Psychomaster35 What do y'all think on the above points for skull-crushing and downgrading it to the level of shotgun shells, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester rounds and .500 S&W Magnum expanding "Vaporizer" rounds that are all in the 3000-3700 J mark?

It seems better for me to ask the staff members who have commented here previously regarding DontTalk's conclusions.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean if if we're downgrading skull crushing to 9-C/Peak Human LS, we could slap an "at least" part at the beginning of LS since regular stomps just fracture the damn thing, & the LS values we have here may just mean fracture or fully crushing the skull.

It isn't peak human, IIRC it was corrected to Class 1, 500 kgf roughly, you should check the archive link.

 

[Migue79]

Eh let's see. Most of the staff only focused on the FTE part and completely forgot about the skull-crushing part, save for DMUA, Jasonsith and Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

But I can tag some calc group members to see what they think on the skull-crushing section.

What do y'all think on the above points for skull-crushing and downgrading it to the level of shotgun shells, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester rounds and .500 S&W Magnum expanding "Vaporizer" rounds that are all in the 3000-3700 J mark?

I’m okay with that.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It isn't peak human, IIRC it was corrected to Class 1, 500 kgf roughly, you should check the archive link.

Ok, I stand corrected by an OG.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Eh let's see. Most of the staff only focused on the FTE part and completely forgot about the skull-crushing part, save for DMUA, Jasonsith and Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

But I can tag some calc group members to see what they think on the skull-crushing section.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @Therefir @Psychomaster35 What do y'all think on the above points for skull-crushing and downgrading it to the level of shotgun shells, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester rounds and .500 S&W Magnum expanding "Vaporizer" rounds that are all in the 3000-3700 J mark?

Would this be the minimum yield? I imagine we want to keep lows and highs on this sort of thing, and depending on the skull, crushing it may take more or less energy.

 

[KLOL506]

Would this be the minimum yield? I imagine we want to keep lows and highs on this sort of thing, and depending on the skull, crushing it may take more or less energy.

That's the minimum yield, yes.

Not sure if we can find lower values for other smaller-sized skulls since bullet testing hasn't been carried out on skulls simulating that of children or infants.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

That is an agreeable minimum yield, then.

 

[Antvasima]

So what have you agreed about here then, and should I call for the staff members who commented here previously?

 

[KLOL506]

So what have you agreed about here then, and should I call for the staff members who commented here previously?

Basically we agreed to this: Downgrading skull-crushing to the level of shotgun shells, .308/7.62x51mm NATO and .500 S&W Magnum hollow-point bullets, which are around the 3000-3700 J mark.

Also the staff members I tagged (Mostly Calc Group Members) have yet to respond (Aside from Migue and Dark-Carioca already having done their part).

 

[Antvasima]

Basically we agreed to this: Downgrading skull-crushing to the level of shotgun shells, .308/7.62x51mm NATO and .500 S&W Magnum hollow-point bullets, which are around the 3000-3700 J mark.

Also the staff members I tagged (Mostly Calc Group Members) have yet to respond (Aside from Migue and Dark-Carioca already having done their part).

Okay. If somebody writes a list of the staff members who helped out here previously, I can call for them to help out again.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Fine with me. I believe the LS values still work because they were sourced from actual articles?

 

[KLOL506]

Fine with me. I believe the LS values still work because they were sourced from actual articles?

Yeah, 500 kgf from the WashingtonPost article as per the correction (Class 1), it's behind a paywall so go loud with the archive.vn article.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think what here please?

 

[KLOL506]

So far, here are the people who agree with using my proposal to downgrade skull-crushing to the level of shotgun shells, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester and .500 S&W Magnum rounds which are around 3000-3700 J

DontTalkDT, Migue79, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan, Dark-Carioca

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The change should be fine to apply then.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. The change should be fine to apply then.

Bump.

Here's my proposal for a draft to the skull-crushing section.

"Skulls have been easily destroyed before by large caliber rounds varying from 12-gauge shotgun slugs, .500 S&W Magnum hollow-point rounds and .308 Winchester-slash-7.62x51mm NATO rounds, all of which have muzzle energies at around 3000-3700 joules (Street level), with such damage being even possible with several types of elephant gun rounds. If one were to crush a skull with their bare hands, they would need to produce at least 500 kilograms of force, which is Class 1 lifting strength"

Does this work? Should I also add links to the calibers and give the MMA link where a 1100 J punch doesn't do much to the skull at all? And the curbstomp reference?

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT