Common Calculation Concerns: Skull Crushing and FTE Movement

[Antvasima]

I personally think that it seems to make sense, but I am not a calc group member.

 

[KLOL506]

I personally think that it seems to make sense, but I am not a calc group member.

Understandable. I did tag DontTalk as well, so let's see what he has to say.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if he finds the time. He is very busy IRL.

 

[Propellus]

(I apologize if this is kinda necroish) What should the proposal be for downgrading from subsonic?

 

[KLOL506]

(I apologize if this is kinda necroish) What should the proposal be for downgrading from subsonic?

I think that part was already handled. No downgrades. Basically you gotta move faster than speeding cars, skydivers and other Subsonic stuff to be FTE as per the notes below.

You can't get speed from a reaction time without a calc, though.


Subsonic FTE comes form the fact that we can see people moving at subsonic speed, such as skydivers and motorcyclists, meaning that FTE characters need to be faster than those. For the time being the 5/13 ms figures aren't used.

Calculations

In order to determine a character's Destructive Capacity, we must first look through the character's feats and determine how much energy was exerted to perform such a feat. Sometimes, the destructive capacity of the feat can be determined easily without the need for a calculation, but most of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I added something. Hope everyone is ok with that until someone finds a better solution.

 

[KLOL506]

Basically, only thing left now is to downgrade skull-crushing to the following below and give it an LS value.

Bump.

Here's my proposal for a draft to the skull-crushing section.

"Skulls have been easily destroyed before by large caliber rounds varying from 12-gauge shotgun slugs, .500 S&W Magnum hollow-point rounds and .308 Winchester-slash-7.62x51mm NATO rounds, all of which have muzzle energies at around 3000-3700 joules (Street level), with such damage being even possible with several types of elephant gun rounds. If one were to crush a skull with their bare hands, they would need to produce at least 500 kilograms of force, which is Class 1 lifting strength"

Does this work? Should I also add links to the calibers and give the MMA link where a 1100 J punch doesn't do much to the skull at all? And the curbstomp reference?

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine, if other of our calc group members and/or DontTalk agree with it.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. That is probably fine, if other of our calc group members and/or DontTalk agree with it.

Yeah at this point I'm just waiting for DontTalk to give it the green light, a bunch of calc members agreed with it as well as some staff members.

 

[Joaco0902]

Wait, hold on, the skull crushing downgrade hasn't been approved? Because it's already being implemented. Should someone tell them to uh, not do that?

 

[KLOL506]

Wait, hold on, the skull crushing downgrade hasn't been approved? Because it's already being implemented. Should someone tell them to uh, not do that?

It's already been approved, we're just waiting DontTalk to finalize the draft.

 

[Antvasima]

Wait, hold on, the skull crushing downgrade hasn't been approved? Because it's already being implemented. Should someone tell them to uh, not do that?

It's already been approved, we're just waiting DontTalk to finalize the draft.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to handle it please?

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind DontTalk about it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to make another suggestion based on another documentation. I do not know who made it, so I cannot give credit to the creator. It might even be DT's. I will link it at the end of the calc.

Spoiler: Crushing a human skull

Here is the durability of a bone/teeth.
Bones are 15% of a person’s body weight (Archived) | The actual compressive strength is 1,800 kgf/cm^2 | The 104-121 MPa part is behind a paywall, but I was able to get the source to the shear strength of 51.6 (Archived) MPa (Archived). | Average Bone Mineral Density (BMD) is 1000 g/cm^2 (for the spine) (Archived) | Bone density is 1900 kg/m^3 (Archived). | The average human biomass is 62 kg (Archived). | The gravity of Earth is officially declared 980.665 cm/s^2 (pdf pg 58) (Archived) or 9.80665 m/s^2 (Archived) | Compressive Stress of cortical bone = 193 (Longitudinal) or 133 MPa (Transverse), Shear Strength of Cortical Bone (Archived) | Modulus (Archived) The strength of Trabecular Bone = 0.1 - 30 MPa (Archived) | 80% of the adult skeleton = cortical bone & 20% of adult skeleton = trabecular bone (Archived)
Notable Facts: Properties of Equality (Archived) | SI prefixes (Archived) | Shear Stress is in Pascals (Archived) | Volume is supposed to be cubic or m^3 (Archived) | Compressive Stress is in Pascals (Archived). | Weight & mass are related (Archived) | Weight is force from a body put onto another body due to gravity (Archived). | Definition of Cortical Bone & Trabecular Bone (Archived)

Bone composition & Standardized Density​

We need to find the weight to calculate the 15% of body weight part, so (15%)(62) = 9.3

.
Bone Density:

0.004894736842 or 0.1697890907^3 = m^3
cm^2:

cm^2 = 9.3 or 3.049590136^2 centimeters
A (51.6 MPa Shear Strength): Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2 I eventually figured out that J/(m^3) = 1 Pa & J = Pa(m^3). We know the volume for bone density, so: (51.6*10^6)(0.1697890907^3) = 252568.421 J

B: (193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)):

C (Cortical + Trabecular Bone):

|

|

Result: 51.6 MPa: 252.568421 KJ in Shear Strength;
(193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)): 650.9999998 or 944.6842102 KJ in Compressive Strength;
(Cortical+Trabecular Bone) 266.3715789 KJ (Lo), 535.5331578 KJ (Mid), 785.1157893 KJ (High End).

Units & Values: The required weight range is 5 kg or less (Archived) due to the fact that the head weighs that much & the skull is inside of a head (Archived). | Skulls can only handle 500 kgf or 6.5 GPa (Archived) | Skulls can get crushed with 520 lb of force (not strength), The human can only do 200 lb (Archived) | A bone density of 1 - 1.8 makes a skull weigh 1,772 g or 1.772 kg (Archived). Normal bone density is at 1 (Archived), so this is a normal value. (The weight of the skull took a lot of time & digging. The only reason why I got the pdf is because of Refseek (Archived), credits to them!) | The gravity of Earth is officially declared 980.665 cm/s^2 (pdf pg 58) (Archived) or 9.80665 m/s^2 (Archived) | The 104-121 MPa part is behind a paywall, but I was able to get the source to the shear strength of 51.6 (Archived) MPa | Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2, so Pa*(m^3) = J | Bone density is 1900 kg/m^3 (Archived). | Average Bone Mineral Density (BMD) is 1000 g/cm^2 (for the spine) (Archived) | Heights (Archived) 1.5949 (females) or 1.7128 (males) m (1996) | Head & Neck is 10.75% of body height (Archived)
Notable Facts: gm is an abbreviation of gram (Archived) | Normal bone density is at 1 (Archived) | Weight & mass are related (Archived) | Properties of Equality (Archived) | SI prefixes (Archived) | Volume is supposed to be cubic or m^3. Mass & volume are different. (Archived) | Compressive Stress is in Pascals (Archived) | Weight is in kg, then that is the mass of the object because: N = (kg)(9.80665) -> = ((kg)(9.80665))/(9.80665) = (m(9.80665))/(9.80665) = (kg) = m | Strongest bite forces in the animal kingdom (Archived) | Shear Strength definition (Archived)
(Optional Area, note that the sources here are referential & may not be reliable.) Where I got the ideas from: Primarily I got the idea of fact checking this blog here: “The Mountain Crushes a Skull (Archived)” by user LordXcano.
Equation(s): | The relation of weight & mass (Archived) can be represented here: w = mg (w = weight in Newtons, m = mass in kg & g = gravity of the object in 1 meter per second) | F = ma (F is in newtons, m is in kg & a is in m/s^2) (Archived) | (Pa)(m^3) = J (See Units & values of this equation)
Conversion(s): Converting kgf to N takes multiplying kgf by 9.80665 (pdf pg 63) (Archived), Pa = N/(m^2) (pdf pg 90) (Archived) | Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2 (Archived), so (Pa)(m^3) = J & J/(m^3) = Pa | For lbf to be converted to N, multiply lb 4.448222 times (pg 65 (pdf pages)) (Archived) | psi(6894.757)=pascal or psi=(Pascal)/6894.757 (pdf pg 65) (Archived)
Calculation:
Skull Mass & Density: kgf to N conversion: (1.772*9.80665) -> weight to mass conversion: (1.772*9.80665) = m(9.80665) -> (1.772*9.80665)/9.80665 = (m(9.80665))/9.80665 -> (1.772*9.80665)/9.80665 = mass in kg. I just realized that if the kgf is going to be converted N & into mass, these conversions aren’t necessary. The exception would be lbs to N conversion, which is multiplying lbf 4.448222 times (pg 65 (pdf pages)) (Archived). -> 1900 kg/(m^3) to 1.772 -> 9.32631579*10^-4 or 0.0977019816^3 = m^3

cm^2 ->

cm^2 = 1.772 or 1.331164903^2 cm
A (Compressive Strength): I'm using the equation (Pa)(m^3) = J.

B (Shear Strength):

48.12378948 KJ
C (Cortical + Trabecular Bone):

Lo|

Mid|

Hi
D (520 lbf, & 500 kgf):

| Pa->Psi: (too many images, just check the original one)
Results

• Shear Strength: 48.12378948 KJ;
• Compressive Strength: 92.90510532 KJ (Wall Level)
• (193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)): 124.04 or 179.9978947 KJ in Compressive Strength;
• (Cortical+Trabecular Bone) 50.75381052 KJ (Lo), 102.039221 KJ (Mid), 149.5941053 KJ (Hi);
• 520 lbf = 2313.07544 N
• 500 kgf = 4903.325 N
• 200 lbf = 889.6444 N

I do not know how accurate this is, but it can be checked thoroughly here. It is not much more organized, though.

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to make another suggestion based on another documentation. I do not know who made it, so I cannot give credit to the creator. It might even be DT's. I will link it at the end of the calc.

Spoiler: Crushing a human skull

Here is the durability of a bone/teeth.
Bones are 15% of a person’s body weight (Archived) | The actual compressive strength is 1,800 kgf/cm^2 | The 104-121 MPa part is behind a paywall, but I was able to get the source to the shear strength of 51.6 (Archived) MPa (Archived). | Average Bone Mineral Density (BMD) is 1000 g/cm^2 (for the spine) (Archived) | Bone density is 1900 kg/m^3 (Archived). | The average human biomass is 62 kg (Archived). | The gravity of Earth is officially declared 980.665 cm/s^2 (pdf pg 58) (Archived) or 9.80665 m/s^2 (Archived) | Compressive Stress of cortical bone = 193 (Longitudinal) or 133 MPa (Transverse), Shear Strength of Cortical Bone (Archived) | Modulus (Archived) The strength of Trabecular Bone = 0.1 - 30 MPa (Archived) | 80% of the adult skeleton = cortical bone & 20% of adult skeleton = trabecular bone (Archived)
Notable Facts: Properties of Equality (Archived) | SI prefixes (Archived) | Shear Stress is in Pascals (Archived) | Volume is supposed to be cubic or m^3 (Archived) | Compressive Stress is in Pascals (Archived). | Weight & mass are related (Archived) | Weight is force from a body put onto another body due to gravity (Archived). | Definition of Cortical Bone & Trabecular Bone (Archived)

Bone composition & Standardized Density​

We need to find the weight to calculate the 15% of body weight part, so (15%)(62) = 9.3

.
Bone Density:

0.004894736842 or 0.1697890907^3 = m^3
cm^2:

cm^2 = 9.3 or 3.049590136^2 centimeters
A (51.6 MPa Shear Strength): Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2 I eventually figured out that J/(m^3) = 1 Pa & J = Pa(m^3). We know the volume for bone density, so: (51.6*10^6)(0.1697890907^3) = 252568.421 J

B: (193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)):

C (Cortical + Trabecular Bone):

|

|

Result: 51.6 MPa: 252.568421 KJ in Shear Strength;
(193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)): 650.9999998 or 944.6842102 KJ in Compressive Strength;
(Cortical+Trabecular Bone) 266.3715789 KJ (Lo), 535.5331578 KJ (Mid), 785.1157893 KJ (High End).

Units & Values: The required weight range is 5 kg or less (Archived) due to the fact that the head weighs that much & the skull is inside of a head (Archived). | Skulls can only handle 500 kgf or 6.5 GPa (Archived) | Skulls can get crushed with 520 lb of force (not strength), The human can only do 200 lb (Archived) | A bone density of 1 - 1.8 makes a skull weigh 1,772 g or 1.772 kg (Archived). Normal bone density is at 1 (Archived), so this is a normal value. (The weight of the skull took a lot of time & digging. The only reason why I got the pdf is because of Refseek (Archived), credits to them!) | The gravity of Earth is officially declared 980.665 cm/s^2 (pdf pg 58) (Archived) or 9.80665 m/s^2 (Archived) | The 104-121 MPa part is behind a paywall, but I was able to get the source to the shear strength of 51.6 (Archived) MPa | Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2, so Pa*(m^3) = J | Bone density is 1900 kg/m^3 (Archived). | Average Bone Mineral Density (BMD) is 1000 g/cm^2 (for the spine) (Archived) | Heights (Archived) 1.5949 (females) or 1.7128 (males) m (1996) | Head & Neck is 10.75% of body height (Archived)
Notable Facts: gm is an abbreviation of gram (Archived) | Normal bone density is at 1 (Archived) | Weight & mass are related (Archived) | Properties of Equality (Archived) | SI prefixes (Archived) | Volume is supposed to be cubic or m^3. Mass & volume are different. (Archived) | Compressive Stress is in Pascals (Archived) | Weight is in kg, then that is the mass of the object because: N = (kg)(9.80665) -> = ((kg)(9.80665))/(9.80665) = (m(9.80665))/(9.80665) = (kg) = m | Strongest bite forces in the animal kingdom (Archived) | Shear Strength definition (Archived)
(Optional Area, note that the sources here are referential & may not be reliable.) Where I got the ideas from: Primarily I got the idea of fact checking this blog here: “The Mountain Crushes a Skull (Archived)” by user LordXcano.
Equation(s): | The relation of weight & mass (Archived) can be represented here: w = mg (w = weight in Newtons, m = mass in kg & g = gravity of the object in 1 meter per second) | F = ma (F is in newtons, m is in kg & a is in m/s^2) (Archived) | (Pa)(m^3) = J (See Units & values of this equation)
Conversion(s): Converting kgf to N takes multiplying kgf by 9.80665 (pdf pg 63) (Archived), Pa = N/(m^2) (pdf pg 90) (Archived) | Pa = N/m^2 = kg m^-1 s^-2, J = N m = kg m^2 s^-2 (Archived), so (Pa)(m^3) = J & J/(m^3) = Pa | For lbf to be converted to N, multiply lb 4.448222 times (pg 65 (pdf pages)) (Archived) | psi(6894.757)=pascal or psi=(Pascal)/6894.757 (pdf pg 65) (Archived)
Calculation:
Skull Mass & Density: kgf to N conversion: (1.772*9.80665) -> weight to mass conversion: (1.772*9.80665) = m(9.80665) -> (1.772*9.80665)/9.80665 = (m(9.80665))/9.80665 -> (1.772*9.80665)/9.80665 = mass in kg. I just realized that if the kgf is going to be converted N & into mass, these conversions aren’t necessary. The exception would be lbs to N conversion, which is multiplying lbf 4.448222 times (pg 65 (pdf pages)) (Archived). -> 1900 kg/(m^3) to 1.772 -> 9.32631579*10^-4 or 0.0977019816^3 = m^3

cm^2 ->

cm^2 = 1.772 or 1.331164903^2 cm
A (Compressive Strength): I'm using the equation (Pa)(m^3) = J.

B (Shear Strength):

48.12378948 KJ
C (Cortical + Trabecular Bone):

Lo|

Mid|

Hi
D (520 lbf, & 500 kgf):

| Pa->Psi: (too many images, just check the original one)
Results

• Shear Strength: 48.12378948 KJ;
• Compressive Strength: 92.90510532 KJ (Wall Level)
• (193 or 133 Compressive Strength (Cortical Bone)): 124.04 or 179.9978947 KJ in Compressive Strength;
• (Cortical+Trabecular Bone) 50.75381052 KJ (Lo), 102.039221 KJ (Mid), 149.5941053 KJ (Hi);
• 520 lbf = 2313.07544 N
• 500 kgf = 4903.325 N
• 200 lbf = 889.6444 N

I do not know how accurate this is, but it can be checked thoroughly here. It is not much more organized, though.

This was based on my old pressure-based methodology if you go back a few pages, which kinda stopped making sense after real-life examples showed considerably less energy to pull it off. Like .500 S&W Magnum hollow-points, large shotgun shells, .308 rounds and a couple elephant rounds.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This was based on my old pressure-based methodology if you go back a few pages, which kinda stopped making sense after real-life examples showed considerably less energy to pull it off. Like .500 S&W Magnum hollow-points, large shotgun shells, .308 rounds and a couple elephant rounds.

I imagine surface area has a lot to do with this, no?

 

[KLOL506]

I imagine surface area has a lot to do with this, no?

Prolly (Maybe not so much for the hollow-points which cause even more damage by expanding), but then there's also the elephant foot thing which makes no sense either given that human punches exceeding 1100 J aren't nearly enough to smash a skull like egshells and neither are curbstomps enough (They do considerable damage to the skull, true, but nowhere near close to it getting crushed like an eggshell).

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I imagine surface area has a lot to do with this, no?

Bruh that looks like my old format & docs for my personal calcs, NOT the wiki itself. If you want to talk & critize me, do it on my message board since this conversation may derail. I'll read it today, tomorrow or in at least 8 days or more.

& I think I revealed one of my emails in the process LOL. How did you find my doc?

 

[KLOL506]

Bruh that looks like my old format & docs for my personal calcs, NOT the wiki itself. If you want to talk & critize me, do it on my message board since this conversation may derail. I'll read it today, tomorrow or in at least 8 days or more.

& I think I revealed one of my emails in the process LOL. How did you find my doc?

I think he was talking about my bullet ends LOL

 

[KLOL506]

Bump. Still waiting for DT.

 

[Antvasima]

Bump. Still waiting for DT.

Here's my proposal for a draft to the skull-crushing section.

"Skulls have been easily destroyed before by large caliber rounds varying from 12-gauge shotgun slugs, .500 S&W Magnum hollow-point rounds and .308 Winchester-slash-7.62x51mm NATO rounds, all of which have muzzle energies at around 3000-3700 joules (Street level), with such damage being even possible with several types of elephant gun rounds. If one were to crush a skull with their bare hands, they would need to produce at least 500 kilograms of force, which is Class 1 lifting strength"

Does this work? Should I also add links to the calibers and give the MMA link where a 1100 J punch doesn't do much to the skull at all? And the curbstomp reference?

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT

@DontTalkDT

We would greatly appreciate some help from you here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm ok with that draft.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm ok with that draft.

K. Should I link those 1100 J punches and normal human curbstomps being unable to shatter the skull as justification as well in the Common Feats page?

I can link the various elephant gun rounds used in the video to the draft later.

 

[Antvasima]

K. Should I link those 1100 J punches and normal human curbstomps being unable to shatter the skull as justification as well in the Common Feats page?

I can link the various elephant gun rounds used in the video to the draft later.

@DontTalkDT

 

[DontTalkDT]

K. Should I link those 1100 J punches and normal human curbstomps being unable to shatter the skull as justification as well in the Common Feats page?

I can link the various elephant gun rounds used in the video to the draft later.

Sure, do as you like.

 

[KLOL506]

Aight, I'll need the Common Feats page unlocked.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Aight, I'll need the Common Feats page unlocked.

Done (I hope. Been a while since I unlocked a page and the layout changed)

 

[KLOL506]

Done (I hope. Been a while since I unlocked a page and the layout changed)

Sorry for the delay, had to go for my root canal. Painful stuff, having your pulp brute-forced out.

 

[KLOL506]

I have carried out the edits. Edit history here. Please check for any errors.

Also I'm surprised Class 1 LS now starts at 545 kg instead of the old 454 kg. Was that an editing error?

 

[Propellus]

If the skull is slowly being crushed to pieces, would it still warrant 1.05931e5 joules?

 

[KLOL506]

If the skull is slowly being crushed to pieces, would it still warrant 1.05931e5 joules?

Prolly not anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

I have carried out the edits. Edit history here. Please check for any errors.

It seemed fine to me at least, but I would naturally appreciate verifications.

Also I'm surprised Class 1 LS now starts at 545 kg instead of the old 454 kg. Was that an editing error?

I think that we talked about a deadlifting feat, and that somebody linked to information in our Lifting Strength page. If that is not the case, is somebody here willing to investigate please?

 

[KLOL506]

I think that we talked about a deadlifting feat, and that somebody linked to information in our Lifting Strength page. If that is not the case, is somebody here willing to investigate please?

Found it: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lifting_Strength?diff=prev&oldid=7024964

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Does the link still remain in the lifting strength page, or should I restore it?

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I handled it.

Lifting Strength

Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[KLOL506]

Never mind. I handled it.

Lifting Strength

Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also Class 5 says this:

"Capable of lifting small trucks, etc."

Problem is, this also includes cars, station wagons and even SUVs (Tons of them within the 1000-5000 kg range). People might end up believing that lifting cars doesn't grant Class 5 LS (Even though common sense would indicate otherwise, and most cars weigh above the 1600 kg mark on average).

So I propose its Explanation to be this:

"Capable of lifting most cars, SUVs, vans, pickup trucks and trucks within the light-duty-to-medium-duty weight range".

Suggestions for improvements are welcome.

 

[Antvasima]

Also Class 5 says this:

"Capable of lifting small trucks, etc."

Problem is, this also includes cars, station wagons and even SUVs (Tons of them within the 1000-5000 kg range). People might end up believing that lifting cars doesn't grant Class 5 LS (Even though common sense would indicate otherwise, and most cars weigh above the 1600 kg mark on average).

So I propose its Explanation to be this:

"Capable of lifting most cars, SUVs, vans, pickup trucks and trucks within the light-duty-to-medium-duty weight range".

Suggestions for improvements are welcome.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0

Is this fine with you?

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0

Is this fine with you?

I wonder why you're tagging Ultima for a real-life LS justification tweak.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, maybe it was inappropriate. I just did not want him to feel left out from a policy revision.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, maybe it was inappropriate. I just did not want him to feel left out from a policy revision.

I mean, it's not... really a policy change? It's just adding stuff that already existed since the inception of the wiki.

Unless you wanna downgrade every family car lifting feat to below Class 5 that is, which would make even less sense.