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Animal Man discussion

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Firestorm808 said:
What I mean is that we're not going to scale the red to the Brane cosmology if we don't have substantial justification to do so.
Click to expand...
And what would this substantial justification even be? Morrison already made reference to brane cosmology in Animal Man along with introducing The Red. Which other writers would go along to build onto the Red and make use of the concepts Morrison established such as the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo, The White Light, The Spider Queen, etc.

Firestorm808 said:
First off, how is the Red is portrayed in the Animal Man standalone series as a whole?
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It’s portrayed as being comprised of three kingdoms and then worlds beyond those three kingdoms. With the Implicate Order/CBL, sitting beyond everything else.
 
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Xearsay said:
Yeah but we still need to work out Animal Mans tier and the cosmology presented during Animal Man. So far I’ve figured out that it goes something like this.

The cosmology presented in Animal Man incorporates some ideas from David Bohms theory of the Implicate Order and Shamanistic cosmology. The cosmology consist of basically The Red which is linked together by something called The World Tree. This World Tree links together the three kingdoms. The first kingdom is the domain of quantum physics/spirit. The second is our 3D reality. Encompassing our 3D reality is something we can call The Universe. The Universe is vast and interconnected with each part of the Universe containing the whole inside of itself like cup and ring marks. Everything is everything. A recursion essentially.

Existing beyond this is the space beyond all knowing. A place not of time and space, the moment before created existence. Taking things to an even higher level than the layers of dream, this is the very template for thought.

At the top and highest level of the shamanistic hierarchy is the third kingdom which consist of something called the imaginal realms. Taking things to a higher level this is the hierarchy of worlds of the imagination.

Beyond the three kingdoms are the worlds beyond the third kingdom, where Buddy Baker met the Black Queen. Not much is known about these worlds since no one know actually knows of their existence except for the Black Queen. However they do seem to also contain the World Soul.
Surpassing existing as manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality is The Clear Light. Going beyond even The World Soul which, The Clear Light is a state of pure mind where the very sense of self/identity is no longer present.

Transcending all of what I’ve mentioned so far is the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo. The implicate Order is the higher world out of which reality is unfolded. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality. Meaning the whole higher parts of the cosmology from the imaginal realms to the lands beyond, are merely attempts at trying to describe the nature of the Implicate Order’s infinite possibility.

Just to summarize the cosmology.

1) 3D reality.
2) The Universe which is vast and interconnected with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole like cup and ring marks, a recursion essentially. With all that Buddy and James Highwater see being nothing but a dream within a dream.
3) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, where thought becomes the template.
4) The third kingdom of possibly infinite larger worlds within larger worlds, that contain archetypes and by definition exist beyond space and time.
5) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contains the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms.
6) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness/pure mind representing the middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality.
7) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds are just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating the entire cosmology that Buddy Baker would experience as nothing but a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.

Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon, Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.

Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy transcended into the The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, into the whole universe and through it’s upper realms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself so he could defeat the spider queen. The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.

Now I’m not exactly sure what tier all of this is so help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Do you have the sources for the scans listed here?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Do you have the sources for the scans listed here?
Click to expand...
Everything is in order of how I presented the scans in my other post.

1. Animal Man #82
2. Animal Man #15
3. Animal Man #15
4. Animal Man #19
5. Animal Man #80
6. Animal Man #50
7. Animal Man #50
8. Animal Man #50
9. Animal Man #50
10. Animal Man #82
11. Animal Man #82
12. Animal Man #85
12. Animal Man #86
13. Animal Man #50
14. Animal Man #87
15. Animal Man #87
16. Animal Man #87
17. Animal Man #86
18. Animal Man #87
19. Animal Man #24
20. Animal Man #12
21. Animal Man #24
22. Animal Man #19
23. Animal Man #24
24. Animal Man #24
25. Animal Man #19
26. Animal Man #87
27. Animal Man #89
28. Animal Man #89
 
Thank you for helping out, Firestorm. I would also greatly appreciate input from the other members that I called for.
 
Well, we are currently about to revise the highest level definitions in our tiering system, and also intend to revise DC Comics as a whole Leven though we have hit a major speed bump due to most participants in the project seemingly being busy IRL), and almost none of our knowledgeable members seem interestedin helping out here, so maybe we should postpone this project until after we are done with both tasks?
 
No. I am currently just waiting for a few of the participants to get the time to start adding references to the sandbox drafts. Except for that we are almost finished, but I haven't received almost any replies in our PM discussion thread recently.
 
The DC cosmology revision isn’t gonna change any of the scaling for Animal Man that I presented here. Also that thread about the tiering system is just about better defining the tiers, meaning it also won’t impact this thread. Furthermore 5 of what you consider to be knowledgeable members already contributed here. So I genuinely see no reason as to why we should postpone this thread.

Literally all we need is for knowledgeable members on the tiering system to help evaluate the tiers I proposed. And then after that we can apply the changes.
 
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I can't remember the entire context of Animal Man - been far too long since I read them - but what's presented here seems fine to me for now. If there is some context missing, then I might change my stance.

Now tiers... That's a different thing.
 
The suggested tiers are the main issue here. They seem way too high.
 
I know. I don't really know high 1b+ so can't judge it, but it's better to ask Qawsedf or someone else in that case.
 
Well I don’t think the tiers are accurate either. However I guess I should at least explain why I chose those tiers.

The interconnected Universe I thought was high 1-B because each of part contains the whole inside of itself like dreams within a dream. Which would create kind of a recursive hierarchy where each part is essentially it’s own universe contained inside the dream of another universe, and on and on.
Everything else would kind of follow from here. However I’m not necessarily sure if this leads to high 1-B so I would prefer other peoples input.
 
I read through Deagonx's replies, and he seemed to make sense to me overall.

At the very least we should wait for him to come back to this forum and clarify what he thinks should be done here, or for other knowledgeable and trustworthy members to evaluate the suggested tiers. I am not going to let you rush through an extremely drastic upgrade without proper analysis.

It would help if you write a single easy to understand post that contains all of your reasoning for what should be done here in any case.
 
Antvasima said:
I read through Deagonx's replies, and he seemed to make sense to me overall.

At the very least we should wait for him to come back to this forum and clarify what he thinks should be done here, or for other knowledgeable and trustworthy members to evaluate the suggested tiers. I am not going to let you rush through an extremely drastic upgrade without proper analysis.

It would help if you write a single easy to understand post that contains all of your reasoning for what should be done here in any case.
Click to expand...
First of all I’m not rushing the thread. if I was rushing this thread I wouldn’t be pushing for further input from other staff members.

Second my discussion with Deagonx was mainly on two topics that have nothing to do with the tiers or things that would drastically change what I presented. So you agreeing with his side of what we argued isn’t really relevant. Additionally there’s literally no reason as to why we should wait on him, as he isn’t a tiering system expert which is what we need at this point.
 
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Well, if you properly explain everything that needs to be evaluated here, that would be a good start. After that, I can ask the knowledgeable members about DC Comics, and some that understand our tiering system well, for help.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if you properly explain everything that needs to be evaluated here, that would be a good start. After that, I can ask the knowledgeable members about DC Comics, and some that understand our tiering system well, for help.
Click to expand...
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman(Animal Man #24). Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision(Animal Man #24). And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure(Animal Man #12) and 4th wall awareness(Animal Man #24). As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers(Animal Man #43). Buddy should also have death manipulation. Buddy was able to cast direct death(Animal Man #38) upon his opponent(Animal Man #38), immediately killing them.

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing(Animal Man #50). The second key is for wearing the body of god(Animal Man #89)/taking the The World Soul onto himself(Animal Man #89). The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen(Animal Man #89). A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.
 
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Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

  • We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

  • Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of Superman instead.

  • Add some abilities like existence erasure and 4th wall awareness.

  • Create two extra keys for Animal Man recreating The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing and taking the The World Soul onto himself to defeat the spider queen.
This is basically it.
Click to expand...
Note that said alternate Superman is pre crisis.
 
Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

  • We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

  • Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of Superman instead.

  • Add some abilities like existence erasure and 4th wall awareness.

  • Create two extra keys for Animal Man recreating The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing and taking the The World Soul onto himself to defeat the spider queen.
This is basically it.
Click to expand...
You need to elaborate considerably more, and include evidence and logical reasoning, if you want our staff and knowledgeable members to be able to evaluate anything.
 
Animal Man took a bloodlusted hit from Overman and, although he had his ribs broken, survived. Pre-Crisis Ultraman, however, was defeated with a single heat vision attack, and Bizarro was outright obliterated by two attacks.
 
Antvasima said:
You need to elaborate considerably more, and include evidence and logical reasoning, if you want our staff and knowledgeable members to be able to evaluate anything.
Click to expand...
I edited the post and added scans and more justifications. I don’t know what else you want me to add or elaborate on as most of it just information I’m providing from the story that was never mentioned in the profile.
 
Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman. Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision. And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure and 4th wall awareness. As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers.

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing. The second key is for wearing the body of god/taking the The World Soul onto himself. The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen. A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.
Click to expand...
Can you provide the sources for the above scans?
 
Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman(Animal Man #24). Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision(Animal Man #24). And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure(Animal Man #12) and 4th wall awareness(Animal Man #24). As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers(Animal Man #43).

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing(Animal Man #50). The second key is for wearing the body of god(Animal Man #89)/taking the The World Soul onto himself(Animal Man #89). The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen(Animal Man #89). A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping out.

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @The_Impress @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Pain_to12

Your help would be appreciated with evaluating the above information and/or figuring out appropriate tiers based on it.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out.

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @The_Impress @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Pain_to12

Your help would be appreciated with evaluating the above information and/or figuring out appropriate tiers based on it.
Click to expand...
Been a while since last read the thread. Will take a look.
 
Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman(Animal Man #24). Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision(Animal Man #24). And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure(Animal Man #12) and 4th wall awareness(Animal Man #24). As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers(Animal Man #43).

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing(Animal Man #50). The second key is for wearing the body of god(Animal Man #89)/taking the The World Soul onto himself(Animal Man #89). The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen(Animal Man #89). A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.
Click to expand...
This is okay I agree
Neutral about the key aspect tho but the rest seems fine
 
Pain_to12 said:
This is okay I agree
Neutral about the key aspect tho but the rest seems fine
Click to expand...
I was calling for you, First Witch, Elizhaa, QuasiYuri, and KingPin for helping with evaluating what tiers that would be appropriate to set from this though.
 
Xearsay said:
The justifications are in the summary I just posted. Also for tiers I’m not exactly sure but I guess I could take a shot at it. I’m open to other opinions however.

The interconnected universe = 1-B

Space beyond all knowing = Low 1-A

Third kingdom = 1-A+

The world soul = 1-A+

Worlds beyond the third kingdom = High 1-A.

The clear Light = High 1-A

Implicate Order/CBL = High 1-A

Animal Man scales to the Space Beyond all knowing and to The World Soul after becoming the Shaman King. So he should have like two extra keys. One that’s low 1-A and another that’s 1-A+.
Click to expand...
 
Xearsay said:
I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman(Animal Man #24). Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision(Animal Man #24). And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure(Animal Man #12) and 4th wall awareness(Animal Man #24). As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers(Animal Man #43).

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing(Animal Man #50). The second key is for wearing the body of god(Animal Man #89)/taking the The World Soul onto himself(Animal Man #89). The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen(Animal Man #89). A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think remaking the file from scratch would be better.

Now then, in regards to what's being suggested, I don't know about scaling to Pre Crisis Superman based on this. Does Buddy have any other showing to suggest he is on that level consistently?

The explanation about the aliens being a manifestation of Buddy's powers could be given a bit more context, but seem fine.

Now, the big meat of all of this. There's a pretty big lack of scans to showcases and properly explain everything in these bits. I suggest making a bit more effort to properly show everything that's being talked about before going into whether or not making them into new keys for the profile. As it stands, it's pretty lackluster what this all means for the purposes of tiering.

That said, in regards to the tiering itself of the ideas of The Red and the three kingdoms, I will let tiering experts tackle that.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Now then, in regards to what's being suggested, I don't know about scaling to Pre Crisis Superman based on this. Does Buddy have any other showing to suggest he is on that level consistently?
Click to expand...
I agree about that we need more than one occasion of showing this level of power in order to not consider it as an outlier.
 
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