Animal Man discussion

[PsychoWarper]

Godthing has power from all the Elemental planes. Animal man has only power from 1 plane.

So im guessing back scaling wont work… hmm how does he scale in relation to the Red itself?

 

[Deagonx]

However I never said the entirety of the theory is accurate to the cosmology. I only took into account how the core ideas that are being incorporated into the cosmology, such as the Implicate Order, unfoldment, every part of the universe containing the whole, etc. So your argument here doesn’t apply.

You referenced multiple aspects of Bohm's theories like holomovement and infinite dimensionality. I can see that you edited your post today to remove those parts of it, so if you're dropping the issue then I have no other objections.

Well it's not that the imaginal worlds refers to the Third Kingdom of imagination, it's that the Third Kingdom of imagination consist of the Imaginal Worlds. As the imaginal worlds has to be a part of the three kingdoms but above the second kingdom.

The first scan about the three kingdoms indicates that the first world is also imaginal.

"It is believed that the shaman's encounter with death allows him access to the upper or lower realms, where he magically rescues the souls of the sick and dying. The shaman's journey takes him to what have been described as imaginal realms -- worlds of the imagination."

Causing even The Writer to wonder who dreams who in the universe.

Where is that said to be the writer?

Just because the white light appears in different parts of the story doesn't mean it magically becomes a different structure.

And just because they are both lights doesn't mean they are magically the same structure. One is called a clear white light of pure mind, one is just called a light, or a "great light." And your is captioned as saying Buddy is the one that calls it a clear white light of pure mind, but he doesn't recognize the light later in the story and has it explained to him by other people.

Are you gonna also assume this Implicate Order is different from the Implicate Order mentioned earlier in the run next?

The term "implicate order" is far far more specific than "light." Which is the only word that those two structures have in common, so this is a false equivalency.

As I said before, they're depicted the exact same way and identified almost the exact same way as well, there's no reason for us to conclude they're different structures.

The only description they have in common is "light" and their depiction is literally empty space on the page which is used by lots of things. Again, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, the phrase "light" is far far too vague to assume two things are the exact same.

 

[Xearsay]

You referenced multiple aspects of Bohm's theories like holomovement and infinite dimensionality. I can see that you edited your post today to remove those parts of it, so if you're dropping the issue then I have no other objections.

Well the usage of the quote wasn’t really to declare those parts as within the cosmology, it was more so just to showcase how stuff from Bohm’s theory of the Implicate Order works. However I can see why that might come off as misleading so I removed it.

The first scan about the three kingdoms indicates that the first world is also imaginal.

"It is believed that the shaman's encounter with death allows him access to the upper or lower realms, where he magically rescues the souls of the sick and dying. The shaman's journey takes him to what have been described as imaginal realms -- worlds of the imagination."

No it doesn’t. As in the same scan when Buddy asks, “You say these imaginal realms exist.. Where are they?” Dr Varma would answer by telling us the imaginal realms are “by definition outside of space and time and transcendent the limits of our minds.” Implying the Shaman’s journey that takes him to the imaginal realms was specifically to the upper parts of the Shamanistic hierarchy since the upper parts transcend our experiences.

Where is that said to be the writer?

The Writer states, “sometimes you wonder in an interconnected universe who’s dreaming who.”

And just because they are both lights doesn't mean they are magically the same structure. One is called a clear white light of pure mind, one is just called a light, or a "great light." And your is captioned as saying Buddy is the one that calls it a clear white light of pure mind, but he doesn't recognize the light later in the story and has it explained to him by other people.

The Clear light, The White light, The Great light, it’s all just a similar way to refer the same structure. It makes no sense for the story to have them as separate structures and then depict them the exact same way while also referring to them under similar titles.

The term "implicate order" is far far more specific than "light." Which is the only word that those two structures have in common, so this is a false equivalency.

Well first of all it’s only called the “The Implicate” later in the story while earlier in the story it’s called the “The Implicate Order.” Going by your logic these must be two different structures because they’re mentioned in different parts of the story and don’t share the same title verbatim.

 

[Deagonx]

No it doesn’t. As in the same scan when Buddy asks, “You say these imaginal realms exist.. Where are they?” Dr Varma would answer by telling us the imaginal realms are “by definition outside of space and time and transcendent the limits of our minds.” Implying the Shaman’s journey that takes him to the imaginal realms was specifically to the upper parts of the Shamanistic hierarchy since the upper parts transcend our experiences.

Why are we equating the phrase "limits of our minds" with "our experiences?"

The Writer states, “sometimes you wonder in an interconnected universe who’s dreaming who.”

I saw that. Is that the writer?

The Clear light, The White light, The Great light, it’s all just a similar way to refer the same structure. It makes no sense for the story to have them as separate structures and then depict them the exact same way while also referring to them under similar titles.

Again, you keep saying "depict them the exact same way" but it's very misleading. Saying they're depicted the exact same way suggests that they share a unique detail, like how the story of the Light in the recent JLI and the Overvoid share a font. The "exact same way" is literally just a color. It does not suggest that the two are the same, the appearance is far too generic. Anything white would appear that way.

And it makes plenty of sense if they serve different purposes but are also lights. The word light is far too vague a description to equate the two. And again, why would Buddy need the light explained to him if he had already seen it?

Well first of all it’s only called the “The Implicate” later in the story while earlier in the story it’s called the “The Implicate Order.” Going by your logic these must be two different structures because they’re mentioned in different parts of the story and don’t share the same title verbatim.

This is a false equivalency. First, as far as I can tell it's only ever called the Implicate. The "Implicate Order" is used when referring to the theory itself, not the construct. Even so, the term "Implicate" is extremely specific. I'd go as far as to say that I've never seen Implicate used as a noun outside of this theory. I'm not saying it hasn't been, but it's extremely rare.

The term "light" however is not at all specific or rare.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Why are we equating the phrase "limits of our minds" with "our experiences?"


I saw that. Is that the writer?


Again, you keep saying "depict them the exact same way" but it's very misleading. Saying they're depicted the exact same way suggests that they share a unique detail, like how the story of the Light in the recent JLI and the Overvoid share a font. The "exact same way" is literally just a color. It does not suggest that the two are the same, the appearance is far too generic. Anything white would appear that way.

And it makes plenty of sense if they serve different purposes but are also lights. The word light is far too vague a description to equate the two. And again, why would Buddy need the light explained to him if he had already seen it?


This is a false equivalency. First, as far as I can tell it's only ever called the Implicate. The "Implicate Order" is used when referring to the theory itself, not the construct. Even so, the term "Implicate" is extremely specific. I'd go as far as to say that I've never seen Implicate used as a noun outside of this theory. I'm not saying it hasn't been, but it's extremely rare.

The term "light" however is not at all specific or rare.

Yes, that guy is the writer.

 

[Xearsay]

Why are we equating the phrase "limits of our minds" with "our experiences?"

Because the overarching point about the imaginal realms is that they’re beyond our world in the shamanistic hierarchy. Placing them somewhere in the upper parts of the shamanistic hierarchy and not in the lower parts that exist beneath our reality.

I saw that. Is that the writer?

Yes it’s The Writer.

Again, you keep saying "depict them the exact same way" but it's very misleading. Saying they're depicted the exact same way suggests that they share a unique detail, like how the story of the Light in the recent JLI and the Overvoid share a font. The "exact same way" is literally just a color. It does not suggest that the two are the same, the appearance is far too generic. Anything white would appear that way.

It’s not misleading at all as being being a cosmic vastness of light that stand outside of creation is a unique detail. And not anything white would appear the same way. Unless you think a white car or white sofa looks the same as a cosmic vastness of white light that stands outside of creation, then you need to get your eyes checked.

And again, why would Buddy need the light explained to him if he had already seen it?

Where did Buddy Baker have The White Light explained to him later on in the run?

This is a false equivalency. First, as far as I can tell it's only ever called the Implicate. The "Implicate Order" is used when referring to the theory itself, not the construct. Even so, the term "Implicate" is extremely specific. I'd go as far as to say that I've never seen Implicate used as a noun outside of this theory. I'm not saying it hasn't been, but it's extremely rare. The term "light" however is not at all specific or rare.

It’s not just the world Light. It’s the overall title. The White Light, The Clear Light, The Great Light, it’s all different ways to refer to the exact same cosmic vastness of white light that stands outside of creation.

 

[Xearsay]

So im guessing back scaling wont work… hmm how does he scale in relation to the Red itself?

Well in one key, Buddy should scale to defeating Antagon by taking root in the space beyond all knowing where he would then recreate the universe using his own mind.

And in the next key he should scale to defeating the Spider Queen by wearing the Body of God/Soul of the World, which is the big idea unifying the three kingdoms.

Buddy also did exist in the Clear Light and the worlds beyond the three kingdoms before taking the World Soul onto himself. However I don’t think merely exist in a location is enough to scale to it.

 

[Deagonx]

Because the overarching point about the imaginal realms is that they’re beyond our world in the shamanistic hierarchy. Placing them somewhere in the upper parts of the shamanistic hierarchy and not in the lower parts that exist beneath our reality.

It doesn't say "beyond our world." He says that they transcend the limits of our mind and are not three dimensional and cannot be discussed in such terms. It is directly stated that the Shaman's journey gives him access to both upper and lower, both of which are not three dimensional, both of which are outside of our world.

It’s not misleading at all as being being a cosmic vastness of light that stand outside of creation is a unique detail.

"cosmic vastness" means nothing and "outside of creation" also means nothing. The word creation wasn't used in any of the scans that I can see. The only detail they share is the word "light" They are both white, sure, but how else would you draw a light? You pretty much can only do yellow or white.

Unless you think a white car or white sofa looks the same as a cosmic vastness of white light that stands outside of creation, then you need to get your eyes checked.

Nothing I said even remotely indicated that I was saying this. Good grief.

Where did Buddy Baker have The White Light explained to him later on in the run?

My mistake, I got the order wrong.

It’s not just the world Light. It’s the overall title. The White Light, The Clear Light, The Great Light, it’s all different ways to refer to the exact same cosmic vastness of white light that stands outside of creation.

But that's an assumption, there's literally nothing connecting these different titles. The light in the earlier part of the run in 1990 was only ever referred to as "the light" or "the great light." The second instances of a "light" in 1995 was called the "clear white light of pure consciousness." The idea that these are all different ways to refer to the same thing is not suggested anywhere. These two references are separated by 5 years of comics and only connected by the word "light" and the fact that they are drawn white, which is an almost intrinsic property of light.

 

[Xearsay]

It doesn't say "beyond our world." He says that they transcend the limits of our mind and are not three dimensional and cannot be discussed in such terms. It is directly stated that the Shaman's journey gives him access to both upper and lower, both of which are not three dimensional, both of which are outside of our world.

First of all it says the Shamans encounter with death allows him to gain access to the upper or lower realms, not that his journey gives him access to either the upper or lower realms. So I don’t know where you’re even getting this from. Second, while on one of the imaginal worlds, The King in Yellow would claim that they’re in a world that’s not an image produced by spirit(first kingdom) or matter(second kingdom) but imagination. And as I’ve already shown before, imagination is the third kingdom. Implying the third kingdom consist of the Imaginal realms.

The word creation wasn't used in any of the scans that I can see.

I already posted all the scans I’m referencing and I’m not gonna post them over and over and over again for every time you want to act like something doesn’t exist.

Nothing I said even remotely indicated that I was saying this. Good grief.

This is a lie. You literally said “anything white would appear the same way.” Which is wrong as there’s a massive visual difference between a vast cosmic structure of white light that lies outside of creation, and a white car or a white sofa.

But that's an assumption, there's literally nothing connecting these different titles. The light in the earlier part of the run in 1990 was only ever referred to as "the light" or "the great light." The second instances of a "light" in 1995 was called the "clear white light of pure consciousness." The idea that these are all different ways to refer to the same thing is not suggested anywhere. These two references are separated by 5 years of comics

You do realize the same thing can be referenced years apart correct? It being referenced years a part doesn’t magically turn it into a different structure.

 

[Xearsay]

Bump still need help with tiering the cosmology presented in post #56.

 

[Deagonx]

First of all it says the Shamans encounter with death allows him to gain access to the upper or lower realms, not that his journey gives him access to either the upper or lower realms. So I don’t know where you’re even getting this from

The former and latter are referring to the same concept.

1. "What you told me is consistent with reported shamanistic experiences, as well as the results of research into near-death experiences."
2. "The shaman initiate is called by the spirits during a crisis, such as a deadly illness or injury. This allows him to access the upper and lower realms where he magically rescues the souls of the sick and dying."
3. "The Shaman's journey takes him to what have been described as imaginal realms."

These are all said in succession, describing the same thing.

Second, while on one of the imaginal worlds, The King in Yellow would claim that they’re in a world that’s not an image produced by spirit(first kingdom) or matter(second kingdom) but imagination.

That may be true for that specific realm, but that doesn't mean all of those worlds are the third kingdom.

I already posted all the scans I’m referencing and I’m not gonna post them over and over and over again for every time you want to act like something doesn’t exist.

That's fine, you don't need to post them over again, I am just pointing out factually that none of them use the word "creation" to describe the location of either of the lights.

This is a lie. You literally said “anything white would appear the same way.”

If you interpreted the statement as applying to a white sofa then you are responsible for that absurdity, not me. If you need to reach this badly to try and come up with an argument, probably best to just admit you are wrong.

Which is wrong as there’s a massive visual difference between a vast cosmic structure of white light that lies outside of creation, and a white car or a white sofa.

Except we don't see a "vast cosmic structure that lies outside of creation." It's literally just the color white on the page. The word "creation" is never used to describe it's location.

You do realize the same thing can be referenced years apart correct? It being referenced years a part doesn’t magically turn it into a different structure.

I never said otherwise. Anyways, there's not any clear evidence connecting the "great light" and the "clear white light" beside them both being a light. It is not yet proven that they are the same thing as they show up in completely different parts of the story years apart while discussing distinctly different sections of the cosmology and were never said to be the same. If evidence is shown that they are the same, then that's fine, but as it is, that's just an assumption.

 

[Xearsay]

The former and latter are referring to the same concept.

1. "What you told me is consistent with reported shamanistic experiences, as well as the results of research into near-death experiences."
2. "The shaman initiate is called by the spirits during a crisis, such as a deadly illness or injury. This allows him to access the upper and lower realms where he magically rescues the souls of the sick and dying."
3. "The Shaman's journey takes him to what have been described as imaginal realms."

These are all said in succession, describing the same thing

You’re not understanding my point. Regardless of whether the Shaman’s encounter with death gives him access to the upper or lower realms, his journey that takes him to the worlds of imagination is still implied to be in the upper realms/kingdom of imagination.

For example, if I drive to the end of a road that gives gives me two choices of going up a mountain or keeping straight away from the mountain, and I said that I drove to my home in hills, that would imply that I went up the mountain. This is literally the same thing. His encounter with death gives him access to the upper or lower realms but his journey takes him to the upper parts or worlds of imagination. Absolutely no where is it implied in the story that his journey to the imaginal worlds takes him to the first kingdom. Similar to the end of the road, his encounter with death just gives him the option to go there.

That may be true for that specific realm, but that doesn't mean all of those worlds are the third kingdom.

Yes it does because the third kingdom is literally the imagination. Meaning the worlds of imagination have to be a part of it. Additionally every world of the imagination we’ve been to so far including Carcosa, has been shown to exist inside of the third kingdom. Which is conclusive evidence that the worlds of imagination exist inside of the third kingdom.

That's fine, you don't need to post them over again, I am just pointing out factually that none of them use the word "creation" to describe the location of either of the lights.

Well then you didn’t read the scans. Literally the first scan I posted about the light mentions Buddy having to be pulled out of The Light into creation. Implying The Light is outside of creation.

If you interpreted the statement as applying to a white sofa then you are responsible for that absurdity, not me. If you need to reach this badly to try and come up with an argument, probably best to just admit you are wrong.

I’m not making any reaches. This is literally your own words. You said “anything white would appear the same way.” Implying that literally anything white would look the same as this cosmic structure we’ve been talking about. Which includes white cars, white sofa’s, white house’s, anything white.

I never said otherwise.

If you never said otherwise then what was the point in bringing up dates?

If evidence is shown that they are the same, then that's fine, but as it is, that's just an assumption.

Here’s the evidence supporting that they are the same.

1. Are depicted identically in the same run.
2. Are referred to in similar ways in the same run.

Here’s evidence for them not being the same.

1. Literally nothing but your opinion.

 

[Confluctor]

What's with this wall of text bruh

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Xearsay]

Bump. We still need an expert to properly tier what’s presented in post #56.

 

[Xearsay]

What's with this wall of text bruh

Sorry for the double post, but is it possible that you can alert members who are knowledgeable on the tiering system so they can address the cosmology presented in post #56.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah but we still need to work out Animal Mans tier and the cosmology presented during Animal Man. So far I’ve figured out that it goes something like this.

The cosmology presented in Animal Man incorporates some ideas from David Bohms theory of the Implicate Order and Shamanistic cosmology. The cosmology consist of basically The Red which is linked together by something called The World Tree. This World Tree links together the three kingdoms. The first kingdom is the domain of quantum physics/spirit. The second is our 3D reality. Encompassing our 3D reality is something we can call The Universe. The Universe is vast and interconnected with each part of the Universe containing the whole inside of itself like cup and ring marks. Everything is everything. A recursion essentially.

• The symbol of David Bohm’s Implicate Order theory. The vision of vast and interconnected universe with each part containing the whole. Where the universe is a mirror reflecting itself.
• In an interconnected universe, who’s dreaming who?
• All that we see is but a dream in a dream.
• While traversing through the Red Buddy would recognize himself as not whole in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.

Existing beyond this is the space beyond all knowing. A place not of time and space, the moment before created existence. Taking things to an even higher level than the layers of dream, this is the very template for thought.

• Buddy would describe it as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind.
• A universe hidden behind ours where thought becomes the template.
• An uncreated place that is not of time and space.

At the top and highest level of the shamanistic hierarchy is the third kingdom which consist of something called the imaginal realms. Taking things to a higher level this is the hierarchy of worlds of the imagination.

• These worlds of the imagination transcends the limits of our minds and by definition are beyond space, and time.
• The imaginal worlds contain archetypes.
• There is maybe an infinite amount of imaginal worlds within the third kingdom. Worlds within larger worlds within larger worlds.
• Imagination is infinite.

Beyond the three kingdoms are the worlds beyond the third kingdom, where Buddy Baker met the Black Queen. Not much is known about these worlds since no one know actually knows of their existence except for the Black Queen. However they do seem to also contain the World Soul.

• Within these realms Buddy was able to sense the explicate unfolding from the implicate order allowing him to access a higher state of understanding and enlightenment known as thunder perfect mind/The Philosopher’s stone.
• Additionally, contained within these worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom was also the World Soul which is the big idea conceptually encompassing the three kingdoms. These worlds beyond the third kingdom must be even greater in size than the World Soul for them to be able to contain it.

Surpassing existing as manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality is The Clear Light. Going beyond even The World Soul which, The Clear Light is a state of pure mind where the very sense of self/identity is no longer present.

• Buddy would describe it is as a white light of pure mind floating in a sea of consciousness with no self or other.
• The Clear Light represents a middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality.
• It is a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. From it unfolds the continuous process of creation and destruction.

Transcending all of what I’ve mentioned so far is the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo. The implicate Order is the higher world out of which reality is unfolded. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality. Meaning the whole higher parts of the cosmology from the imaginal realms to the lands beyond, are merely attempts at trying to describe the nature of the Implicate Order’s infinite possibility.

• From the perspective of those in the Implicate Order everything is just a story to be read for entertainment.
• James Highwater would even go as far to say that beings are just the memories of old fashioned characters who don’t fit the continuity anymore.
• From the perspective of the Writer who lives in the Implicate Order, everything Buddy has known. Everything that is, was, and shall be, is only a hallucination.

Just to summarize the cosmology.

1) 3D reality.
2) The Universe which is vast and interconnected with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole as a recursion of dreams.
3) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, where thought becomes the template.
4) The third kingdom of possibly infinite imaginal larger worlds within larger worlds, that contain archetypes and by definition exist beyond space and time.
5) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contains the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms.
6) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness/pure mind representing the middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality.
7) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds are just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating the entire cosmology that Buddy Baker would experience as nothing but a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.

Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon, Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.

Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy transcended into the The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, into the whole universe and through it’s upper realms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself so he could defeat the spider queen. The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.

Now I’m not exactly sure what tier all of this is so help would be appreciated.

@Antvasima this post needs evaluation from tier 1 experts

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Confluctor

Can you explain the discusssion and conclusions here so far first please?

 

[Xearsay]

I know I’m not one of the two you alerted but I can explain it as I’m one of the main people who took part in the discussion. The first thing we agreed upon was basically to keep Animal Mans page and just revise it. In terms of the cosmology, we concluded almost everything and I’ve made the changes to the post you see now when necessary, according to those conclusions. The only thing we didn’t agree on was whether the worlds of imagination are a part of the third kingdom, and whether The Light mentioned later in the story is the same as The Light mentioned earlier in the story. However both of these topics don’t really impact the tiering of what’s presented so we’re currently in need of members who are knowledgeable on the tiering system to way in their input.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so Deagonx reached an agreement with you then?

 

[Xearsay]

Okay, so Deagonx reached an agreement with you then?

I guess so. However it was more like we argued and he kept dropping topics. Which I guess was his way of conceding to various aspects of our discussion. All that’s really left to do is to get tiering system experts to scale the cosmology highlighted in post #56 so we can give Animal Man the proper tier he deserves. And also to add some abilities like 4th wall awareness, existence erasure, and to remove that note written on Animal Man’s wall.

 

[Antvasima]

I guess so. However it was more like we argued and he kept dropping topics. Which I guess was his way of conceding to various aspects of our discussion. All that’s really left to do is to get tiering system experts to scale the cosmology highlighted in post #56 so we can give Animal Man the proper tier he deserves. And also to add some abilities like 4th wall awareness, existence erasure, and to remove that note written on Animal Man’s wall.

Hmm. I would much prefer direct statements from @Deagonx instead of guesswork. I would also greatly appreciate help from @Sandman31 here.

 

[Xearsay]

Hmm. I would much prefer direct statements from @Deagonx instead of guesswork. I would also greatly appreciate help from @Sandman31 here.

Direct statements of what? Why would whether Deagonx agree’s with me or not matter? As I already explained, we got into an argument over the post(implying that he didn’t agree with multiple things) and that Deagonx dropped most of the topics that he didn’t agree with.

 

[Antvasima]

Because Deagonx has usually seemed sensible and knowledgeable in my interactions with him, so I much prefer to let him speak for himself.

 

[Xearsay]

Because Deagonx has usually seemed sensible and knowledgeable in my interactions with him, so I much prefer to let him speak for himself.

To speak for himself on what though? Deagonx already weighed in his concerns with the post and dropped all his disagreements. So what input are you expecting to get from him?

 

[Antvasima]

Did he say that he dropped them/conceded, or did he just grow tired of arguing?

 

[Xearsay]

Did he say that he dropped them/conceded, or did he just grow tired of arguing?

When I say that he “dropped them” I mean that he abandoned/discontinued arguing certain aspects of our discussion while continuing to argue other aspects of our discussion. This would continue until we got down to basically two topics. And now Deagonx has abandoned arguing those last two topics. Whether he admitted I was right or not/conceded doesn’t really matter as he was still unable to refute post #56.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he has not visited in the forum in a while, so I think that we should avoid rushing this revision and wait until he comes back.

@Deagonx

We would still appreciate your continued help here.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Xearsay]

I don’t think we need these people as there is nothing left to add. So it’s best that we just move towards getting tiering system experts to scale the cosmology presented.

I’ll repost the summary of it here so they don’t have to scroll through the entire first page to find it.

1) The universe which is vast and interconnected spacetime with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole like cup and ring marks, dreams within a dream.

2) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, functioning as a universe hidden behind ours, where thought becomes the template.

3) The third kingdom which sits at the top of the shamanistic hierarchy. Containing possibly an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds, that are more fundamental and foundational conceptual realities. They also by definition exist beyond space and time.

4) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contain/encompass the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the “big idea.”

5) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness and state of pure mind behind the veil, where one’s very sense of self and other ceases to be. Functioning as the manifestation/abstract idea of the vast absence that lies behind reality and the middle ground between the implicate order and the rest of reality.

6) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds, such as the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond, as just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating everything that is, was, and shall be as both a hallucination and a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.

Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon and save the the universe after it was destroyed by Antagon. Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.

Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy would enter The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, spiraling past the three kingdoms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself so he could defeat the spider queen. The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I would still much prefer input from the trusted knowledgeable members that I called for earlier.

However, in summary, which tiers do you intend to apply here exactly, and with what justifications?

 

[Xearsay]

I would still much prefer input from the trusted knowledgeable members that I calle for earlier.

However, in summary, which tiers do you intend to apply here exactly, and with what justifications?

The justifications are in the summary I just posted. Also for tiers I’m not exactly sure but I guess I could take a shot at it. I’m open to other opinions however.

The interconnected universe = 1-B

Space beyond all knowing = Low 1-A

Third kingdom = 1-A+

The world soul = 1-A+

Worlds beyond the third kingdom = High 1-A.

The clear Light = High 1-A

Implicate Order/CBL = Tier 0

Animal Man scales to the Space Beyond all knowing and to The World Soul after becoming the Shaman King. So he should have like two extra keys. One that’s low 1-A and another that’s 1-A+.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

The justifications are in the summary I just posted. Also for tiers I’m not exactly sure but I guess I could take a shot at it. I’m open to other opinions however.

The interconnected universe = High 1-B

Space beyond all knowing = Low 1-A

Third kingdom = 1-A+

The world soul = 1-A+

Worlds beyond the third kingdom = High 1-A.

The clear Light = High 1-A

Implicate Order/CBL = High 1-A

Animal Man scales to the Space Beyond all knowing and to The World Soul after becoming the Shaman King. So he should have like two extra keys. One that’s low 1-A and another that’s 1-A+.

We have made very elaborate plans for a revision of the DC Comics cosmology for a long time now, even though we are waiting for further help from some of the participants currently, and the hierarchy simply does not reach anywhere near that far as far as I am aware.

@Confluctor @Deagonx @Eficiente @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Kerfuffles2 @LuciferDC099 @Planck69 @Sandman31

What do you think about this?

 

[Xearsay]

We have made very elaborate plans for a revision of the DC Comics cosmology for a long time now, even though we are waiting for further help from some of the participants currently, and the hierarchy simply does not reach anywhere near that far as far as I am aware.

Well that sounds like an error on you guy’s part. Also that DC cosmology blog you’re referring to barely takes into account anything from Animal Man. The Red for example is no where to be mentioned despite Grant Morrison being the one who created it. So of course it wouldn’t reach that far.

 

[Firestorm808]

Well that sounds like an error on you guy’s part. Also that DC cosmology blog you’re referring to barely takes into account anything from Animal Man. The Red for example is no where to be mentioned despite Grant Morrison being the one who created it. So of course it wouldn’t reach that far.

Grant Morrison only wrote Animal Man Vol 1 #1-26, and I'm not aware of where he placed the Red in his later Brane cosmology.

 

[Xearsay]

Grant Morrison only wrote Animal Man Vol 1 #1-26, and I'm not aware of where he placed the Red in his later Brane cosmology.

I’m aware that Grant Morrison only wrote for 26 issues but the problem here is that to accurately scale Animal Man, we would have to take into account the 89 issues that he appears in and not just the 26 that Grant Morrison wrote.

 

[Firestorm808]

What I mean is that we're not going to scale the red to the Brane cosmology if we don't have substantial justification to do so.

First off, how is the Red is portrayed in the Animal Man standalone series as a whole?