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Pretty sure overman just had a cameo in the final crisis. No context for this Iirc
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Animal Man discussion
- Thread starter Da_Lunge_Fish
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Didn't he also appear in countdown to final crisis? And obviously in multiversity - which Ig means new version so eh
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Actually nvm, that was Soviet one in countdown. EE should work better than bfr in this case then.
Lemme look through final crisis rq
Lemme look through final crisis rq
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According to DC database, his only appearance aside from Animal Man was Final Crisis 7
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I looked through that, don't see him anywhere. I think they have him confused with someone else.
So ye ee should work
So ye ee should work
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Yeah I agree with revising or deleting and remaking Animal Mans page, its missing alot of abilities and the tiering is just weird.
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Here’s some feats for Buddy I found. The yellow aliens who were just illusions created by Buddy Baker due to him not fully understanding his own power, could erase characters from existence by un-drawing them down to the page. In the same scan these yellow aliens also seemed to regard other beings as fictional characters and stories, implying that Buddy has some type of 4th wall awareness.
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Buddy has very explicit 4th wall awareness. One of the most famous AM scene is him seeing the reader
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True. Also I forgot to mention this but Buddy should have a third key for becoming the Shaman King in his final state and wearing the body of God to defeat the Spider Queen. And to tier that we need to discuss the cosmology presented throughout Animal Man.
From what I understand the Red is comprised of higher dimensions and the three kingdoms being matter, soul, and imagination which are all connected by the World Tree/Life-web. There’s also worlds beyond the three kingdoms which is where Buddy met the Black Queen. To add on there is also Comic Book Limbo and the implicate order from which the explicate order(3D reality) unfolds from. How these all structurally relate is what’s confusing me a bit.
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I feel like at this point all thats really left to be decided is weather a simple CRT for the page is made or if the page is deleted and then remade (Unless people believe we dont have enough support to change it yet).
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Alrighty then, so this has mostly been rapped up (Outside the actual changes lol).
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Yeah but we still need to work out Animal Mans tier and the cosmology presented during Animal Man. So far I’ve figured out that it goes something like this.
The cosmology presented in Animal Man incorporates some ideas from David Bohms theory of the Implicate Order and Shamanistic cosmology. The cosmology consist of basically The Red which is linked together by something called The World Tree. This World Tree links together the three kingdoms. The first kingdom is the domain of quantum physics/spirit. The second is our 3D reality(Animal Man #82). Encompassing our 3D reality is something we can call The Universe. The Universe is vast and interconnected with each part of the Universe containing the whole inside of itself like cup and ring marks. Everything is everything. A recursion essentially.
Existing beyond this is the space beyond all knowing. A place not of time and space, the moment before created existence(Animal Man #50). Taking things to an even higher level than the layers of dream, this is the very template for thought.
At the top and highest level of the shamanistic hierarchy is the third kingdom which consist of something called the imaginal realms(Animal Man #82). Taking things to a higher level this is the hierarchy of worlds of the imagination.
Beyond the three kingdoms are the worlds beyond the third kingdom(Animal Man #87), where Buddy Baker met the Black Queen. Not much is known about these worlds since no one know actually knows of their existence except for the Black Queen. However they do seem to also contain the World Soul.
Transcending all of what I’ve mentioned so far is the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo. The implicate Order is the higher world(Animal Man #24) out of which reality is unfolded. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality(Animal Man #19). Meaning the whole higher parts of the cosmology from the imaginal realms to the lands beyond, are merely attempts at trying to describe the nature of the Implicate Order’s infinite possibility.
Just to summarize the cosmology.
1) The universe which is vast and interconnected spacetime with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole like cup and ring marks, dreams within a dream.
2) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, functioning as a universe hidden behind ours, where thought becomes the template.
3) The third kingdom which sits at the top of the shamanistic hierarchy. Containing possibly an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds, that contain archetypes and by definition exist beyond space and time.
4) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contain/encompass the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the “big idea.”
5) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness and state of pure mind behind the veil, where one’s very sense of self and other ceases to be. Functioning as the manifestation/abstract idea of the vast absence that lies behind reality and the middle ground between the implicate order and the rest of reality.
6) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds, such as the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond, as just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating everything that is, was, and shall be as both a hallucination and a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.
Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon, Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.
Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god(Animal Man #87) tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy transcended into the The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, into the whole universe and through it’s upper realms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself(Animal Man #89) so he could defeat the spider queen(Animal Man #89). The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.
Now I’m not exactly sure what tier all of this is so help would be appreciated.
The cosmology presented in Animal Man incorporates some ideas from David Bohms theory of the Implicate Order and Shamanistic cosmology. The cosmology consist of basically The Red which is linked together by something called The World Tree. This World Tree links together the three kingdoms. The first kingdom is the domain of quantum physics/spirit. The second is our 3D reality(Animal Man #82). Encompassing our 3D reality is something we can call The Universe. The Universe is vast and interconnected with each part of the Universe containing the whole inside of itself like cup and ring marks. Everything is everything. A recursion essentially.
- The symbol of David Bohm’s Implicate Order theory. The vision of vast and interconnected universe with each part containing the whole. Where the universe is a mirror reflecting itself(Animal Man #14).
- In an interconnected universe, who’s dreaming who?(Animal Man #14).
- All that we see is but a dream in a dream(Animal Man #19).
- While traversing through the Red Buddy would recognize himself as not whole in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions(Animal Man #80).
Existing beyond this is the space beyond all knowing. A place not of time and space, the moment before created existence(Animal Man #50). Taking things to an even higher level than the layers of dream, this is the very template for thought.
- Buddy would describe it as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind(Animal Man #50).
- A universe hidden behind ours where thought becomes the template(Animal Man #50).
- An uncreated place that is not of time and space(Animal Man #50).
At the top and highest level of the shamanistic hierarchy is the third kingdom which consist of something called the imaginal realms(Animal Man #82). Taking things to a higher level this is the hierarchy of worlds of the imagination.
- These worlds of the imagination transcends the limits of our minds and by definition are beyond space, and time(Animal Man #82).
- The imaginal worlds contain archetypes are more fundamental and foundational realities(Animal Man #85).
- There is maybe an infinite amount of imaginal worlds within the third kingdom. Worlds within larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86).
- Imagination is infinite(Animal Man #50).
Beyond the three kingdoms are the worlds beyond the third kingdom(Animal Man #87), where Buddy Baker met the Black Queen. Not much is known about these worlds since no one know actually knows of their existence except for the Black Queen. However they do seem to also contain the World Soul.
- Within these realms Buddy was able to sense the explicate unfolding from the implicate order allowing him to access a higher state of understanding and enlightenment known as thunder perfect mind/The Philosopher’s stone(Animal Man #87).
- Additionally, contained within these worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom was also the World Soul(Animal Man #87) which is the big idea conceptually encompassing the three kingdoms(Animal Man #86). These worlds beyond the third kingdom must be even greater in size than the World Soul for them to be able to contain it.
- Buddy would describe it is as a white light of pure mind floating in a sea of consciousness with no self or other(Animal Man #87).
- The Clear Light represents a middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality(Animal Man #24).
- It is a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. From it unfolds the continuous process of creation and destruction(Animal Man #12).
Transcending all of what I’ve mentioned so far is the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo. The implicate Order is the higher world(Animal Man #24) out of which reality is unfolded. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality(Animal Man #19). Meaning the whole higher parts of the cosmology from the imaginal realms to the lands beyond, are merely attempts at trying to describe the nature of the Implicate Order’s infinite possibility.
- From the perspective of those in the Implicate Order everything is just a story to be read for entertainment(Animal Man #24).
- James Highwater would even go as far to say that beings are just the memories of old fashioned characters who don’t fit the continuity anymore(Animal Man #24).
- From the perspective of the Writer who lives in the Implicate Order, everything Buddy has known. Everything that is, was, and shall be, is only a hallucination(Animal Man #19).
Just to summarize the cosmology.
1) The universe which is vast and interconnected spacetime with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole like cup and ring marks, dreams within a dream.
2) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, functioning as a universe hidden behind ours, where thought becomes the template.
3) The third kingdom which sits at the top of the shamanistic hierarchy. Containing possibly an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds, that contain archetypes and by definition exist beyond space and time.
4) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contain/encompass the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the “big idea.”
5) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness and state of pure mind behind the veil, where one’s very sense of self and other ceases to be. Functioning as the manifestation/abstract idea of the vast absence that lies behind reality and the middle ground between the implicate order and the rest of reality.
6) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds, such as the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond, as just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating everything that is, was, and shall be as both a hallucination and a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.
Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon, Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.
Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god(Animal Man #87) tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy transcended into the The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, into the whole universe and through it’s upper realms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself(Animal Man #89) so he could defeat the spider queen(Animal Man #89). The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.
Now I’m not exactly sure what tier all of this is so help would be appreciated.
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We need a mod I think.
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Ive contacted Milly, Ultima and Yobo (Whos knowledgeable on Animal Man) so hopefully that may help.
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Thank you.
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In what way is it wrong?
Lol. You don't need to be familiar with source material to recognize an error in a logical conclusion. If someone who has read the source material suggests something, they need to provide evidence. That evidence should demonstrate their point clearly. None of the reasons provided to upgrade Animal Man were coherent in that regard.
None of those scans demonstrate "how the in-universe cosmology works." The guy is waxing philosophical about drops of rain, comparing them to telepathic powers in comic books, coffee cup stains, and the implicate order.
There's no confusion that Bohm and his work has been mentioned in Animal Man, but the extent to which it literally applies to the world at hand isn't explained in any significant detail and it's mentioned alongside various other cosmological concepts which themselves have an unclear application to the cosmology. It's also incompatible with the rest of DC, which is why it's not being used for DC tiering.
Where is the Red equated to this World Tree? Also, this scan does not say the World Tree consists of those three worlds, it says it links them. These are very different things. Also, this is the hierarchy the scan gives:
First World: Hell -- the domain of quantum physics
Second World: Three Dimensional world that humans live in
Third World: Heaven
There is nothing connecting quantum physics to the spirit in that scan.
Your scan does not say this. It says "the explicate unfolding from the implicate." Also, what exactly do you mean by "unfolding from" in the context of a universe?
Nothing about this statement suggests that is how the world works. He's just reminded of the theory when looking at raindrops.
There's nothing connecting the term "Imaginal realms" specifically the third kingdom. The Shaman experience references both the higher and lower kingdom.
There is a lot of ambiguity in this statement. He says Keel would say you're in an Imaginal world of archetypes. An ant mystic might reference the world soul. He doesn't know if either of those interpretations are correct.
The scan does not say this. In fact, it doesnt reference the third kingdom at all. Someone in the 2nd Kingdom opened the door to the place outside space and time (which is described as separate from all three kingdoms) and that allowed him to enter the mind of men. He realized that the world he was a part of was within a larger world, maybe infinite worlds. He doesn't know. It's not a description of the Third Kingdom.
Where is it stated that this is the World Soul?
This depends on the notion that the world soul encompasses the three kingdoms, but that's never stated in any of these scans.
Where is this described as the "background to reality" and a "manifestation of the implicate order?" It's not in the scan.
How did you determine these two were the same thing? These are completely different parts of the comic. If the only part that connects them is being called a "light" then that's not really proof.
It also doesn't say it "separates the implicate order."
What evidence is there to equate the Implicate Order to Limbo?
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I never said one needs to be familiar with the source material to recognize errors in logical conclusions. However I think it’s best to focus on whether these errors you think that you’ve pointed out even exist.
He then goes along to actually discuss and talk about the Implicate Order and how the universe is vast and interconnected with every part containing the whole. A mirror reflecting itself. Additionally James Highwater would also describe the Implicate Order during his trip with Buddy. And we can take these statements The Writer and James are making into account because they’re both talking about a real thing that actually exist in the cosmology.
Going back to my paragraph above this one. The implicate Order and the universe are real things that exist in this cosmology has been described/explained as shown in my post highlighting the cosmology. These other concepts mentioned like the three kingdoms are also real things that exist in the cosmology that have been described/explained multiple times. To say we have no information on these cosmic structures when if you’ve read my post you’d see that we literally do is very disingenuous. Additionally most of DC is incompatible with itself. Hence why the cosmology is being split up. And there’s literally no reason as to why this can’t exist as it’s own separate cosmology.
I said it’s made up of or comprised of the World Tree. Not that it’s = to the World Tree. And you’re right about it only linking the three kingdoms. That’s my mistake.
Also the first kingdom being equated with spirit is mentioned by the Black Queen.
What is meant by unfolding is going back to Bohm’s theory of the Implicate Order. You can read it in my post highlighting the cosmology.
Yes there is. The third kingdom is literally the world of imagination. Additionally after imprisoning Maxine in the third kingdom the Spider Queen claimed that she imprisoned Maxine in one of the imaginal worlds.
That isn’t the point. The point is that he still describes the imaginal realms as archetypal. Whether it’s the archetypal imaginal worlds that Buddy describes as bigger than himself or The World Soul, is irrelevant.
The mind is the third kingdom.
It’s a major plot point of the story that the Spider Queen wants to become one with the World Soul. And this is literally her origin story that she’s telling to Buddy. So when they’re talking about the little idea(The Spider Queen), trying to become one with big idea, they’re talking about the World Soul.
I called it a background because that’s how it’s visually presented.
And the white light is called a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. Which is talking about the Implicate Order as the Implicate Order is what lies on the other side of the white light which functions as a middle ground between it and reality.
Actually sharing the same exact identity as a cosmology structure is evidence to support them being the same. Especially since it’s all in the context of the same run. Now let’s look at all the evidence to support the white light presented early on in the story being different from the white light presented later on in the story. Oh wait there’s literally nothing suggesting such a thing.
Well for one It’s called the higher world out of which they’re unfolded. They’re out there watching us! Go through and take revenge.
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Then why are you stating that I have not read the comic in connection to the caveats at the bottom of Animal Man's profile? What bearing does that have on the legitimacy of the information?
I read the scans. As I said, he does describe the implicate order as one of the things he was reminded of when he saw the raindrops, but there's nothing about those statements that insist it's part of the cosmology. We are given multiple different competing cosmological concepts, all of which are endorsed with varying levels of uncertainty and ambiguity. No one philosophy is directly stated or demonstrated to be true, but rather each one (like Bohm, the Shamans, etc) have a kernel of truth.
There's no reason to interpret the entirety of Bohm's theory as being true for DC any more than there is to interpret all of Shamanistic beliefs as part of DC cosmology.
We are separating cosmologies by author. The majority of Morrison's work does not agree with your interpretation.
Scan?
This isn't an answer. Nothing in your post actually explains the meaning of unfolding. If you talked about unfolding a cloth, that would make perfect sense. But without further explanation from you, the term unfolding here means nothing.
This does not mean "the imaginal realms" refers to the Third Kingdom specifically. The third kingdom is imaginal, but so is the first.
No he doesn't. He gives one persons specific interpretation of a specific realm, and expressly states that he doesn't know the validity of that statement. Plus "has archetypes" =/= "archetypal." He's also literally just guessing what another person might say about a certain place they are in.
Source?
One of your scans says she wants to control the World Soul and the three kingdoms. Do you have a scan that says she wants to become one with the World Soul?
What says the little idea is the Spider queen?
Then what exactly does "background to reality" mean? Are you asserting that this definition is supported by the fact that the white light is 'in the background?'
This doesn't make sense. If the white light is the absence behind reality, then that would be the middle ground itself, not the implicate order. The light cannot both be the implicate order itself and the barrier between reality and the implicate order. And also it was never suggested that the implicate order is behind the light.
The generic word "light" is not "the same exact identity." So, no, you don't have any proof to support this interpretation. They could be different lights.
I don't need to prove a negative. There's nothing suggesting they're the same, they are both lights, certainly, but there's nothing connecting the two in the story aside from that very vague description. If you have proof other than that assumption, I'm happy to hear it, but if not then this is just one possible interpretation.
And how does that suggest it is the implicate order? And what does unfold mean in this context?
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Ok well now you’re just lying. Literally one of the first scans I posted is about Buddy sensing the explicate unfolding from the Implicate Order.
“The explicate is unfolded from the Implicate Order.”
Agreed. That’s why I only take into account the concepts that are stated to exist in the verse like the Implicate Order.
How so?
Here. Also I meant to say the white queen states this and not the black queen.
Well to unfold means to basically spread out from. When applied to Bohm’s theory of the Implicate Order, unfolding would mean that the explicate spreads out from the implicate Order.
You just ignored what I previously said. “Additionally after taking Maxine into the third kingdom and imprisoning her somewhere there, the Spider Queen claimed that she imprisoned Maxine in one of the imaginal worlds.” As you can see it was already equated. It being called the kingdom of imagination is just the icing on the cake.
You clearly didn’t read the full scan. He’s responding to Buddy talking about how he feels like he’s been swallowed up by something that’s bigger than him. He then gives two possible interpretations to what he feels like could describe what Buddy’s talking about. One being the Ant mystic and the other being the Imaginal realms. So when he says “I don’t know if either of these interpretations is correct” he’s talking about how he doesn’t know if either of the interpretations he's given is the correct thing that describes what Buddy’s talking about.
Here.
The Spider Queen would state, "You carry within your womb the World Soul. You bring me a body that I may wear for eternity. The very body of God."
As in something that exist in the background of reality. It's pretty simple. And I'm basing this description off how it's visually presented.
That's not what the scan says. The scan says the white light is a manifestation of the absence, not the absence itself. Additionally I don’t really see the point in this part of our discussion because regardless of whether it's a manifestation or not, It still represents a middle ground between reality and the higher world out of which they’re unfolded(The Implicate Order).
They could be different but there’s no proof for that. As far the Animal Man run goes they're presented in the exact same way. As a giant white light in the background of reality. There's no reason to interpret them as different.
It's the Implicate Order because the Psycho Pirate would suggest the beings who've been messing with Buddies life(the writers) are out there in the higher world which they're unfolded. And this world where the writers are located in was shown later in the next issue to be Limbo. Implying that Limbo and the Implicate Order are the same thing.
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It merely says "the implicate" but regardless, I was not saying there is no instance in which it is stated to be part of the cosmology, I am saying that those statements referenced when he's walking in the rain are not.
We're saying different things. I'm talking specifically about his "implicate order" theory and how much of it applies to DC. We've seen it numerous other times that a concept will be mentioned, but won't align with the actual theory in reality. Such as platonism. There is something that vaguely resembles the idea of platonism, but fails to meet some of the core criteria. Point being, the fact that a theory or concept is mentioned does not mean every thing about that concept is 100% true for DC. Authors pick and choose very often, Morrison especially. He tends to blend a lot of different concepts together.
I did not ignore that. It's key to my point. It's "one of" the imaginal worlds. I'm not saying it isn't imaginal, I am saying "the imaginal realms" does not refer specifically and exclusively to the Third Kingdom.
I did indeed read the full scan. You said essentially the same thing I said. I don't see where you feel our descriptions diverge, but what you're saying does not support the idea that the interpretations should be taken as true.
She wants to inhabit the body, which itself contains the World Soul. That is not the same as "being one with" the World Soul. If she inhabits a pregnant woman's body, that isn't becoming one with the fetus.
You didn't explain what it meant, you just repeated yourself. I am asking in practical/literal terms what "background of reality" means.
Where is it said that their reality unfolds from the implicate order? So far all that has been said to unfold from anything specific is that the explicate unfolds from the implicate, and that the lower reality unfolds from this light. What exactly the explicate and implicate are is never stated clearly.
There's no proof that they're the same. The idea that they are the same is not a given assumption. I don't need to prove a negative.
Where is it said that what the lower reality unfolds from is the implicate order?
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You said you read the scans and that “there's nothing about those statements that insist it's part of the cosmology” despite one of the scans I posted amongst that group identifying the Implicate as a thing within the cosmology.
This is a false analogy. You’re comparing DC misusing platonism to Bohm’s theory of the Implicate Order which you have no proof of being misused at all. Additionally the reason the Implicate Order is valid for scaling isn’t because it’s mentioned, it’s valid for scaling because we have actual explanations about its complexity, how it exist in the cosmology related to other structures, etc.
Except it literally does. As Dr Varma would state every time we penetrate the imaginal realms, something from there comes to keep balance. And that somewhere there is a big thermostat keeping things consistent between the three worlds. Implying the imaginal realms are a part of the three worlds/kingdoms. And since Carcosa(one of the imaginal realms) was already stated to exist inside of the third kingdom, it’s safe to conclude that the rest of the imaginal realms exist there as well since they have to be a part of the three kingdoms.
No what we said was not the same. Dr. Varma isn’t talking about not knowing whether the contents of his interpretations are correct, he’s talking about not knowing whether his interpretations is correct in terms of them accurately describing Buddy’s experience. It’s completely different.
There’s a difference between saying I don’t know if the interpretation of these archetypal imaginal worlds are correct in terms of what aligns with your experience.
And saying, I don’t know if the interpretation of the archetypal imaginal worlds as archetypal is correct.
Well first of all she’s not talking about inhabiting Annie’s body. She’s talking about wearing the body of the child Annie is about to birth who is the World Soul. Second, looking at the scan again, it doesn’t even say “become one” with the World Soul. It just says that the Spider Queen wants to become a part of the World Soul. Regardless, the evidence supports it.
I mean what is there to explain? You’re asking me to provide a literal meaning of a simple description I gave of how something looks. It doesn’t impact tiering or scaling in anyway. So I really don’t get what’s your point in arguing over this aspect of our discussion.
Its literally in the Implicate Order section of my post highlighting the cosmology. This scan also explains what the Implicate is. Also the explicate is just reality.
Yes there is. They’re literally drawn the same/look the same, are identified similarly, and appear within the context of the same run with there being absolutely 0 evidence to suggest otherwise. Therefore it’s within reason to conclude they’re the same thing.
Read my post about the cosmology. It’s literally highlighted in the section about the Implicate Order.
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I am specifically referencing the ones where he's walking in the rain, among a couple of others.
It's not an analogy. I am giving an example of where the fact that DC mentions a certain philosophy is not proof that the entirety of that philosophy is accurate to DC. Simply put, even if some part of Bohm's theory on the Implicate order is factual to DC, it does not mean all aspects of it are also true in DC unless they're shown to be.
Okay, you clearly didn't read what I said. What I am specifically objecting to is saying "The Imaginal Realms" refers specifically to the Third Kingdom.
No, you are mistaken. Dr. Varma is explaining Buddy's experience through the lens of multiple different belief systems, and he does not know if either of them are true.
As long as you recognize that it's not actually supported by evidence nor can be used for evidence for anything, then it doesn't really matter.
This sort of highlights my point. James talks about 4 different belief systems' interpretations of the exact same concept in that scan. It cannot be assumed that the entirety of any one single belief system is true. If it can be said that the regular world spreads from a higher world (which doesn't really have any tiering implications) then that's one thing. But Shamanistic cosmology, the Aborigine Dream-Time, the Yaqui Indian Nagual, the Hopi belief system, etc, are also mentioned. There's no basis for saying "well this piece of Bohm's theory is true so we can also take Holomovement and infinite dimensionality from his book even though it was never in DC" without also saying "well the higher reality was equated to Aborigine Dream-Time so all information about Aborigine beliefs are also true."
The only aspect of Bohm's theories that have been confirmed in any meaningful way is the idea of a lower reality spreading from a higher reality.
We are talking about literal empty white space. Calling them "drawn the same" is laughable. They have a similar description, but they are never connected in the story and appear in very different chapters of that run each focusing on separate aspects of the cosmology. The part with the Three Kingdoms and the mish mash of different myths, and the part that focuses on Limbo, are very distinct and there's nothing connecting the two aside from "a light" which is quite a reach.
You could assume they are the same, it's not the most outlandish assumption you could make, but that's not proven. Until there is proof, it's just an assumption that they're the same.
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Ok but I wasn't using those scans to support whether the Implicate exist or not. So I don't understand why you're misrepresenting my post highlighting the cosmology to make it seem like I was.
I agree with this. However I never said the entirety of the theory is accurate to the cosmology. I only took into account how the core ideas that are being incorporated into the cosmology, such as the Implicate Order, unfoldment, every part of the universe containing the whole, etc. So your argument here doesn’t apply.
Well it's not that the imaginal worlds refers to the Third Kingdom of imagination, it's that the Third Kingdom of imagination consist of the Imaginal Worlds. As the imaginal worlds has to be a part of the three kingdoms but above the second kingdom. Which only leaves us with the third kingdom.
I'm not mistaken. Your interpretation of what's said in the scan completely ignores the context of what Dr. Varma is replying to. As I said before, there’s a difference between saying I don’t know if the interpretation of these archetypal imaginal worlds are correct in terms of what aligns with your experience. And saying, I don’t know if the interpretation of the archetypal imaginal worlds as archetypal is correct.
Once again this argument doesn’t apply. I only took into account the core ideas that are being incorporated into the cosmology and how they’re being treated. I also never said the Holomovement was incorporated into the cosmology. However what does exist is a vast interconnected universe with each part of the universe containing the whole universe inside of itself. Causing even The Writer to wonder who dreams who in the universe.
Just because the white light appears in different parts of the story doesn't mean it magically becomes a different structure. Also it's not focusing on separate aspects of the cosmology, because in the same issue the implicate is also talked about. Are you gonna also assume this Implicate Order is different from the Implicate Order mentioned earlier in the run next? As I said before, they're depicted the exact same way and identified almost the exact same way as well, there's no reason for us to conclude they're different structures.
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Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
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Bump. Is no one there?
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
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Bump
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Will simply using the same scaling system as the God Thing scaling not work/be allowed?
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Godthing has power from all the Elemental planes. Animal man has only power from 1 plane.
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