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Overman fought pre crisis superman once and then died. I will recheck tho
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Animal Man discussion
- Thread starter Da_Lunge_Fish
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Is it really that bad? I think editing it would just be easier but that’s just my opinion.
Well there is one instance of Dr Fate and Phantom Stranger attempting to recruit Buddy in a war against ancient Gods(Animal Man #40). Claiming that he was “needed” for the fight. However this is as far as it goes for a base Animal Man.
Well I did a more in-depth explanation of why he would need two keys on the first page that kind of explained all the cosmological stuff that he would scale to.
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It’s in post #111.
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Overman owned Bizarro and Ultraman and then got defeated by Buddy. And, at least in the grant morrison run, it’s hard to point out what is an outlier. He clearly got way more powerful after figuring out the morphogenetic field
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I don't think I ever said outlier or otherwise. By died I meant he died Very quickly, after like 5 appearances
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Hm. I personally don't think that's really enough, but if others decide that he could scale anyway, I won't oppose it.
Ah, my bad, probably missed it in between the back and forth. But even so, just adding all the scans with context so that the tiering experts can come and help. That's what I meant.
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The abilities additions, I guess, seem fine.
For the last two keys, the references from here need to be added for verification; it is as stated by rule 7 of this page.
For the last two keys, the references from here need to be added for verification; it is as stated by rule 7 of this page.
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I already gave the references in a separate post responding to Firestorm but if you prefer me to add them to the original I will do that as well.
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My bad; sure, it would be helpful.
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I added them.
PrinceofPein
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Ngl this doesn’t make complete sense and really don’t relate to each other just repetitions
Are all these from the same issues?
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What part about it doesn’t make complete sense? And how do they not relate to each other? Nothing is repeated as far as I’m aware as the entire cosmology I highlighted was comprised of completely different structures. If you’re confused I have a larger post that explains all of this in a more in depth manner on the first page in comment #56.
It’s a summary of information about different structures within the cosmology spread across like 89 issues.
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PrinceofPein
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I will read the larger post later on
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Abilities seem to have been accepted, yes.
However, they have yet to discuss the tiering of The Red, The Three Kingdoms, etc. Mostly, we are making sure everything is properly sourced and explained first, so that experts may have an easier time evaluating everything.
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Both of these are from the #14 issue.
I will check later and I will try to reply by tomorrow.
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I forgot to add this but Buddy should have death manipulation. Buddy was able to cast direct death(Animal Man #38) upon his opponent(Animal Man #38), immediately killing them.
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Wouldn't it be Tier 0 instead if it transcends High 1-A levels?
Tier 0: Boundless
0 | Boundless: Characters who demonstrate an equivalence to, or can create/destroy/affect, transcendental abstract levels of existence which conceptually stand superior to even High 1-A levels. Being “omnipotent” or any similar reasoning[4] is not nearly enough to reach this tier; characters at this level must transcend High 1-A characters as High 1-A characters would transcend 1-A ones. This tier has no true endpoint, and can be extended unto any higher level, spiraling infinitely upwards.I guess the other seems doable. More inputs are likely needed, though.
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We are currently in the process of revising the requirements for our highest tiering system definitions, and definitely cannot hand out such tiers far to easily to a verse that otherwise only scale to 1-A at best after an over 1.5 years long evaluation process.
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That’s what I was thinking. Mainly because the Third Kingdom of possibly infinite larger worlds within larger worlds and the worlds beyond the third kingdom’s hierarchy which housed the World Soul, are all just an attempt to describe the infinite possibility of the Implicate Order(Animal Man #19). Making it beyond any extension of high 1-A. Although I wasn’t very sure so I put it at high 1-A to be safe.
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We already went over this. That thread isn’t revising the requirements for the tiers. It’s making the explanations of the tiers easier to understand for those on the site.
You’re literally trying to invalidate the scale of Animal Man because of some other planned revision going on that doesn’t even mention any of the information I’ve presented. This an argument you can make for literally any verse btw.
“We cannot hand out such tiers to the Elder Scrolls that otherwise would only scale to 1-A at best if we ignored all the high 1-A and tier 0 evidence.”
“We cannot hand out such tiers to the World of Darkness that otherwise would only scale to 1-A if we ignored all the high 1-A and tier 0 evidence.”
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So you think this should be it's own separate cosmology?
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As I already went over with Firestorm it can be it’s own separate cosmology or it should be taken as a part of Grant Morrison’s. Either one works.
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I mainly just think that we should wait with revising the tiers for Animal Man to ridiculously high proportions until we have ironed out the specifics for the DC Comics cosmology as a whole, given how extremely misleading it currently is. The other parts of this revision are probably fine to apply if they are accepted.
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Why would we wait on that revision? As I discussed with Firestorm the blog you’re referring to about DC’s cosmology(which is finished with tiering and scaling) doesn’t address or plan on addressing any of the information I’ve presented in this thread.
Also wouldn’t it be much better to get this out of the way now? We already went over that the blog doesn’t address any of this, and I already presented valid reasons to Firestorm for why this should be put in with Grant Morrison’s cosmology. So instead of waiting to the last minute to try and look at all of this, why not address it now so you can have a smooth Cosmology revision later?
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We’re still discussing the tiers however I can give you a rundown of them so far.
The interconnected Universe is 1-B because it is a spacetime where each part of the universe contains the whole inside of itself(Animal Man #14) with the relationship being like a dream within a dream(Animal Man #19). Which would would create a kind of a recursive hierarchy where each part contains inside of itself the the dream of another universe over again, and over again to the point where even The Writer wonders who’s dreaming who?(Animal Man #19)
The Space Beyond All Knowing is low 1-A because it’s a place not of time and space, functioning as the template of thought that forms the space of dreams(Animal Man #50).
The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) which are more fundamental foundational conceptual realities that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).
The worlds beyond the third kingdom are High 1-A for being completely transcendent to the third kingdoms hierarchy going as far to even contain The World Soul(Animal Man #87), which is both a unity of the three kingdoms and conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the big idea(Animal Man #86). Making the worlds beyond the third kingdom even greater than the idea of an outerversal hierarchy. Putting the Worlds beyond the Third Kingdom above any extension of 1-A.
The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds. Meaning the entire structure of the three kingdoms and the worlds beyond the three kingdoms completely form from The Clear Light(Animal Man #87) as a pattern or vortex of life. It’s also a vast sea of consciousness and pure mind beyond the restrictions of self(Animal Man #87), functioning as the middle ground(Animal Man #24) between the Implicate Order/CBL.
And finally, the Implicate Order/CBL is straight up tier 0 for being a higher primal world beyond all possible ideal worlds in the cosmology(Animal Man #19), which would include all possible worlds in the Third Kingdom and all possible worlds beyond the third kingdom. Making it essentially beyond any extension of high 1-A since all the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond the third kingdom are just an attempt to describe the implicate Orders/CBL infinite possibility. It also seems to regard the rest of the cosmology as a story to be read for entertainment(Animal Man #24). Including even the Clear Light in this case which in relation to the Implicate Order is simply regarded as a middle ground between reality and the higher world or a door into the impossibleness of the Implicate Order(Animal Man #24).
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Hmm. To me none of that sounds anywhere near as high as you claim.
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist
What do you think about this?
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1-B seems fine to me, since the author is using the Morrison cosmology as a building block too. Rest I can't really evaluate too well atm, so will wait and see what others say.
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Just to point this out but the 1-B stuff is entirely written by Morrison. However yeah, the other writers basically utilized Morrison’s cosmology with The Universe, The Red, The Clear Light, and Implicate Order and set them up as building blocks for the rest of what would be highlighted in Animal Man.
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Although I do commonly believe DC profiles to be insanely exaggerated 90% of the time, and I do believe that the scans involved showing a hierarchy probably aren't scalable and are mostly philosophical waxing, We can't really prove Xearsay's interpretation wrong here. There are scans stating that reality is a dream within a dream, and a reality contained within a larger reality, so shouldn't this be fine?
Transcending
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Yeah I think it's fine.
Transcending
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Bump
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Given how ridiculously high tiers you wish to apply here, we need a correspondingly massive amount of knowledgeable staff support for them, and that does not seem to be happening, especially given our upcoming revisions.
I think that some new powers and abilities were accepted here earlier though.
I think that some new powers and abilities were accepted here earlier though.
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Can you relax a bit? There’s literally no reason to rush this. It hasn’t even been 24 hours since you pinged them. I’ve seen other threads where people have waited for staff input go on for waaaaay longer. Also this thread has come too far. Multiple staff have already weigh in their input on the tiers of the cosmology and none of it has been disagreements. Which is good considering out of the 18 people you pinged only 6 of them were staff.
Just give it more time or maybe try pinging different people who are active and knowledgeable on the tiering system like Ultima or DontTalk for example, as this is a potential tier 0 upgrade.
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Pretty sure they were posted five times or so this week
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