Animal Man discussion

[Deagonx]

I never took everything about Bohm theory as gospel so I don’t know why you keep saying that. Most of my information about the cosmology comes from the 20+ scans I utilized.

You've misinterpreted what I said. I said that you took everything stated about Bohm's theories as gospel. As in, every time an aspect of Bohm's theory was referenced by any character, it was used to assert that said aspect of Bohm's theories was true for the cosmology.

Numerous characters wax philosophical about half a dozen mythological and cosmological theories and concepts. The same concepts are referenced repeatedly through various lenses by various characters. I don't find it particularly compelling to take any statement from anyone about what Bohm believed and apply it wholesale to the cosmology nor to Animal Man himself. You clearly do.

Also I only edited out like a few things from post #56 and most of it wasn’t because of you. I only made like one change because of you and it was about the World Tree.

You also had the assertion that there were infinite higher dimensions due to an out-of-comic piece of Bohm's theories about the Implicate Order, which was later removed. I just find it ironic to be called out on my "inability" to debunk a certain post that you have revised several times.

And for the purpose of getting this thread done I’m willing to accept the imaginal realms as only 1-A rather than 1-A+

I don't see how they are remotely 1-A. I don't really think you understand the tiering system at all based on your assertions, such as:

The Space Beyond All Knowing is low 1-A because it’s a place not of time and space

Not being of time and space doesn't make a realm 1-A. In fact, it doesn't really make it anything. Being non-physical/atemporal doesn't make something transcendental.

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).

This simply isn't an accurate description of what the scan says, and this speaks to a larger habit of bad-faith descriptions of scans on your part. It's subtle enough that you have to really look for it, but in my honest opinion you're doing it on purpose because you've been called out on it so many times.

The scan, does not say that the worlds "transcend the limits of time and space." He said it transcends the limits of our minds, that's all. You cannot lump that in together with the phrase "transcend" simply because the word transcend helps support your tiering argument. He said the realms exist outside of time and space, which is not the same as transcending. Any realm that exists outside of a standard spacetime continuum can be described as existing outside time and space.

The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds.

Circling back to my other comment, this doesn't actually explain why it's 1-A. Why does it being the "manifestation of the absence that lies behind reality" make it 1-A? Why does the continuous process of creation and destruction 'unfolding' from it make it 1-A? Also, there's no scan connecting the "Clear Light" and the "Great Light" which were published in storylines separated by half a decade.

Personally, I just don't think any part of these tiering suggestions should be taken seriously. You are very clearly invested in trying to make Animal Man 1-A through any means possible rather than giving an honest good-faith interpretation of the source material, and it is exhausting to try and keep up with the constant false descriptions of every scan.

Okay. Would you be willing to appropriately edit our Animal Man page please? You should probably mention our reasoning for his tiering in an explanation section near the bottom of his page.

Yes, I can do that. I will wait until we reach some kind of understanding about these tiers. However, my assertion is that these tiering suggestions are being made in bad faith and aren't based on a solid understanding of the tiering system.

 

[Xearsay]

You've misinterpreted what I said. I said that you took everything stated about Bohm's theories as gospel. As in, every time an aspect of Bohm's theory was referenced by any character, it was used to assert that said aspect of Bohm's theories was true for the cosmology.

I don't find it particularly compelling to take any statement from anyone about what Bohm believed and apply it wholesale to the cosmology nor to Animal Man himself. You clearly do.

I understand what you’re saying but I never did any of what you’re talking about. I even claimed in our last argument “I only took into account the core ideas that are being incorporated into the cosmology and how they’re being treated.”

You also had the assertion that there were infinite higher dimensions due to an out-of-comic piece of Bohm's theories about the Implicate Order, which was later removed. I just find it ironic to be called out on my "inability" to debunk a certain post that you have revised several times.

I never claimed there were infinite higher dimensions because of Bohm theory. And as I will state again I revised that post whenever I wanted to add information or simply change how something was worded. I never revised it because of you or anything like that.

I don't see how they are remotely 1-A. I don't really think you understand the tiering system at all based on your assertions, such as:

The Space Beyond All Knowing is low 1-A because it’s a place not of time and space

Not being of time and space doesn't make a realm 1-A. In fact, it doesn't really make it anything. Being non-physical/atemporal doesn't make something transcendental.

This isn’t the full reason I had it at low 1-A. I had it low 1-A for being a place that’s not of time and space while also being the template of thought that forms the dreams. However I think this could honestly be a higher level of 1-B rather than being outright low 1-A.

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).
The scan, does not say that the worlds "transcend the limits of time and space." He said it transcends the limits of our minds, that's all. You cannot lump that in together with the phrase "transcend" simply because the word transcend helps support your tiering argument. He said the realms exist outside of time and space, which is not the same as transcending. Any realm that exists outside of a standard spacetime continuum can be described as existing outside time and space.

Again this isn’t the full reason I had it at 1-A. The imaginal realms are 1-A for simply being outside of time and space. It’s because they’re also more fundamental and foundational conceptual realities coupled with being outside time and space which is the framework that defines the 1-B interconnected universe.

The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds.

Circling back to my other comment, this doesn't actually explain why it's 1-A. Why does it being the "manifestation of the absence that lies behind reality" make it 1-A? Why does the continuous process of creation and destruction 'unfolding' from it make it 1-A? Also, there's no scan connecting the "Clear Light" and the "Great Light" which were published in storylines separated by half a decade.

Once again this is not the full reason I had it at high 1-A. This was the full justification. However I already said that I wanted to ignore the possibly infinite worlds statement so this won’t be high 1-A anymore.

“The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds. Meaning the entire structure of the three kingdoms and the worlds beyond the three kingdoms completely form from The Clear Light(Animal Man #87) as a pattern or vortex of life. It’s also a vast sea of consciousness and pure mind beyond the restrictions of self(Animal Man #87), functioning as the middle ground(Animal Man #24) between the Implicate Order/CBL.”

Personally, I just don't think any part of these tiering suggestions should be taken seriously. You are very clearly invested in trying to make Animal Man 1-A through any means possible rather than giving an honest good-faith interpretation of the source material, and it is exhausting to try and keep up with the constant false descriptions of every scan.

And here we go with the accusation flinging. The only thing I’m invested in is trying to make Animal Mans tier as accurate as possible. Also wtf are you talking about? Saying you’re “exhausted” from trying to keep with constant false descriptions of “every” scan? You only pointed out ONE description that was slightly inaccurate. Lol cut the exaggerations.

 

[Alonik]

@Alonik @Deagonx

Nothing that high. The most reasonable here is likely Low 1-C. The imaginal world is the human mind projected onto a higher dimensional plane than the three-dimensional realm, but there is not the hierarchy of infinite worlds seeing each other as akin to fiction as argued, it is just the world (mind) of humans existing in parallel ways in the three-dimensional world.

@Xearsay reasoning is High 1-B because the narrative says that Meme's world after entering the human's mind was:

• "a world within a larger world. maybe a world within an infinite number of larger worlds." - Animal Man Vol 1 #86 - August, 1995

However, it is not infinite number of worlds one larger than the other as if they were layers stacked one on top of the other. In the art and text of the three scans, you can see that the narration was saying that the Meme was inside the mind of a human, which existed inside a larger world, and then we see Meme finding countless of these larger worlds when it is just the mind of other humans on the same level of existence, where there was none hierarchy of each of these "larger world" seeing every larger one as a world within itself sequentially and endlessly.

 

[Deagonx]

This isn’t the full reason I had it at low 1-A. I had it low 1-A for being a place that’s not of time and space while also being the template of thought that forms the dreams. However I think this could honestly be a higher level of 1-B rather than being outright low 1-A.

I mean, is this not a pretty big issue? You were asked explicitly to provide justifications and apparently left out half of your justification, and have now revised it. How are we supposed to take any of it seriously?

Also, why does being "the template of thought that forms the dreams" support high 1-B?

“The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds. Meaning the entire structure of the three kingdoms and the worlds beyond the three kingdoms completely form from The Clear Light(Animal Man #87) as a pattern or vortex of life. It’s also a vast sea of consciousness and pure mind beyond the restrictions of self(Animal Man #87), functioning as the middle ground(Animal Man #24) between the Implicate Order/CBL.”

And how does this support it being 1-A?

And here we go with the accusation flinging

It's not an accusation if it's demonstrably true.

You only pointed out ONE description that was slightly inaccurate

Sure, in that comment, but every discussion on this forum with you involves picking out inaccuracies. Also, switching "exists outside space and time" to "transcends space and time" is not slightly inaccurate, it's an enormous difference and one that you create intentionally.

 

[Deagonx]

The most reasonable here is likely Low 1-C. The imaginal world is the human mind projected onto a higher dimensional plane than the three-dimensional realm, but there is not the hierarchy of infinite worlds seeing each other as akin to fiction as argued, it is just the world (mind) of humans existing in parallel ways in the three-dimensional world.

Personally I don't see how this is a higher level of infinity above a universe or infinite universes.

 

[Xearsay]

I mean, is this not a pretty big issue? You were asked explicitly to provide justifications and apparently left out half of your justification, and have now revised it. How are we supposed to take any of it seriously?

Also, why does being "the template of thought that forms the dreams" support high 1-B?

I didn’t leave out half my justification, you literally just didn’t quote it from my comment for whatever reason. Also the justification isn’t for high 1-B but 1-B. And being the template of thought that forms dreams is 1-B because the interconnected universe which is a hierarchy of dreams is 1-B.

And how does this support it being 1-A?

I already gave this explanation. It supports it being 1-A because it’s outside the framework(space and time) in which 1-B is defined while also being superior by being more fundamental and foundational conceptual higher plane of existence.

It's not an accusation if it's demonstrably true

Nothing you said was demonstrably true. It was all how you “personally” felt which I didn’t ask for or care about.

Sure, in that comment, but every discussion on this forum with you involves picking out inaccuracies. Also, switching "exists outside space and time" to "transcends space and time" is not slightly inaccurate, it's an enormous difference and one that you create intentionally.

Lol this is such a blatant lie and exaggeration. However as I already said I didn’t ask for what you personally think and I don’t care either. If you’re really so exhausted why don’t you take a break and take your complaints that I don’t care about elsewhere.

 

[Xearsay]

Nothing that high. The most reasonable here is likely Low 1-C.

How is it low 1-C if the interconnected universe is already 1-B? What you’re saying makes no sense.

@Xearsay reasoning is High 1-B because the narrative says that Meme's world after entering the human's mind was:

• "a world within a larger world. maybe a world within an infinite number of larger worlds." - Animal Man Vol 1 #86 - August, 1995

Well first of all I was I initially arguing for 1-A+ and not high 1-B. However I said we could ignore this scan for the sake of getting this thread done. Which would bump the imaginal realms down to 1-A.

 

[Deagonx]

Also the justification isn’t for high 1-B but 1-B. And being the template of thought that forms dreams is 1-B because the interconnected universe which is an interconnection of dreams is 1-B.

This is incoherent.

First, 1-B is defined as "spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model."

In what way has any of this been shown to be infinitely above a universe, let alone 8+ levels of infinity?

Also, that scan of the writer waxing philosophical about cups and circles in the rain and Bohm's theories is not evidence that what he says is true for DC. Even if it were true, saying that "every part of the universe contains the whole" would not be remotely close to 1-B, it would be Low 1-C if you had proper evidence for it.

Nothing you said was demonstrably true

I literally just proved you lied about part of your evidence, and you also edited your main comment repeatedly in response to being debunked.

Lol this is such a blatant lie and exaggeration

It's not. You have an established history of lying about what scans say. Several proven examples of that in this thread alone.

How is it low 1-C if the interconnected universe is already 1-B? What you’re saying makes no sense.

Why would he accept your assertion that the universe is 1-B when that's not proven? You're literally taking part of the justification from a guy quoting Edgar Allan Poe, in a conversation that wasn't about the cosmology.

Even if everything you said about the universe was adequately sourced (it isn't) it still wouldn't explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it's 1-B.

Which would bump the imaginal realms down to 1-A.

The imaginal realms haven't even been established as being infinitely superior to a single universe. You realize superior to doesn't automatically mean "infinitely superior to?"

Where on earth are you getting any of these infinite infinities that would be required to actually be 1-A?

 

[Xearsay]

In what way has any of this been shown to be infinitely above a universe, let alone 8+ levels of infinity?

I would get into this, however you don’t even believe the scans are sufficient evidence in the first place so I might as well go over that first.

Also, that scan of the writer waxing philosophical about cups and circles in the rain and Bohm's theories is not evidence that what he says is true for DC.

This argument doesn’t work here as the universe being interconnected is a thing that’s established later on in the story. Meaning we can very much apply the statements made by the Writer to the cosmology.

I literally just proved you lied about part of your evidence, and you also edited your main comment repeatedly in response to being debunked.

You didn’t prove any of this. I never lied I just misinterpreted the statement. And also once again, I edited the post once because of you and it was about the World Tree. That’s literally it. I don’t know where you’re getting that I edited the post “repeatedly” from.

It's not. You have an established history of lying about what scans say. Several proven examples of that in this thread alone.

No I don’t. And the only thing I did in this thread was misinterpret like two scans amongst the 20+ I was dealing with. Like I said before if interacting with me is exhausting for you, then go take a nap or something. No one’s forcing you to instigate arguments with me.

Even if everything you said about the universe was adequately sourced (it isn't) it still wouldn't explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it's 1-B.

I sourced it in multiple comments. I really don’t see why I would need to source it again. Also, like I said before I’d rather establish why the evidence is sufficient first before explaining how 1-B was reached.

 

[Deagonx]

This argument doesn’t work here as the universe being interconnected is a thing that’s established later on in the story. Meaning we can very much apply the statements made by the Writer to the cosmology.

This is a non-sequitur. Even the idea of the universe being interconnected is established later, that does not mean you can apply these philosophical musings to the cosmology.

You didn’t prove any of this. I never lied I just misinterpreted the statement.

You cannot "misinterpret" something by rearranging the words. That's just lying. What the scan said, and what you said it said, were very different things. This is a repeated habit of yours.

And also once again, I edited the post once because of you and it was about the World Tree. That’s literally it. I don’t know where you’re getting that I edited the post “repeatedly” from.

You literally edited it as recently as 2 weeks ago. You removed several sections. I don't see why you're bothering to lie about this when the fact that you've edited it is publicly available.

And the only thing I did in this thread was misinterpret like two scans amongst the 20+ I was dealing with

Once again, this is a lie. You aren't "accidentally" moving words around in a way that oh-so-conveniently supports your agenda. No one is going to fall for that, so you should just stop trying.

I sourced it in multiple comments. I really don’t see why I would need to source it again

No you didn't, you were asked to explain why it's 1-B and you did not. If you aren't able to explain why you believe it's 1-B, then this CRT is pointless. Simply pointing out the statements you are using for evidence isn't an explanation if it isn't clear why those statements support a certain tier within the context of the tiering system.

Also, like I said before I’d rather establish why the evidence is sufficient first before explaining how 1-B was reached.

That's not your choice. This is a CRT, if you believe a certain tier should be altered, then you need to provide a justification for why the evidence supports that tier. If you refuse to do that, this thread should simply be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Deagonx and Alonik seem to make good sense above.

So are there any revisions that should be applied to the Animal Man page based on your conclusions, and if so, what?

 

[Swerzye29038]

I'm more so agreeing with Deagonx now, the tiering that Xearesy is proposing is insanely exaggerated. I do agree with some of the abilities that Xearesy suggested being added, though.

 

[Deagonx]

I essentially agree with the above. The abilities can be added but these tiers are positively absurd. I haven't seen any explanation for how anything presented is infinitely above a single universe, let alone several tiers of Infinity.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

Is somebody here willing to handle it?

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, I can update the abilities section with the suggestions and sources given.

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked the page. Tell me here when you are done:

Animal Man (Post-Crisis)

Buddy Baker is the Animal Man, the chosen protector of The Red, the force which connects all animal life. He is both a family man and a super-hero, often struggling to keep balance between the two. Tier: At least 9-B, possibly Low 2-C Name: Bernhard "Buddy" Baker, Animal Man Origin: DC Comics...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. Fourth Wall awareness was already on the profile ('Breaking The Fourth Wall'). It doesn't seem that there's any page titled "Fourth Wall Awareness."

I added Existence Erasure and Death Manipulation and added hyperlinks in parantheses to descriptions of the scans demonstrating those abilities.

I don't think there's anything left to do here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Is there anything that you would like to add or change in the page, @Alonik ?

 

[Xearsay]

This is a non-sequitur. Even the idea of the universe being interconnected is established later, that does not mean you can apply these philosophical musings to the cosmology.

I really don’t get what you’re talking about. The Writer is simply describing how the universe works and since we know the universe functions like this we can apply these statements from the Writer.

You cannot "misinterpret" something by rearranging the words. That's just lying. What the scan said, and what you said it said, were very different things. This is a repeated habit of yours.

You’re not understanding my point. I wasn’t even trying to restate it verbatim. It was my misinterpretation that caused me to wrongly paraphrase the statement. You have no proof I’m lying.

You literally edited it as recently as 2 weeks ago. You removed several sections. I don't see why you're bothering to lie about this when the fact that you've edited it is publicly available.

That last edit was to add information. Also this is a strawman, as I never denied editing it. I’m denying that I edited it “repeatedly to remove stuff” because of you.

Once again, this is a lie. You aren't "accidentally" moving words around in a way that oh-so-conveniently supports your agenda. No one is going to fall for that, so you should just stop trying.

Once again it was simply me wrongly paraphrasing it. I don’t know why you’re throwing a fit over this. You have no proof of me lying.

No you didn't, you were asked to explain why it's 1-B and you did not. If you aren't able to explain why you believe it's 1-B, then this CRT is pointless. Simply pointing out the statements you are using for evidence isn't an explanation if it isn't clear why those statements support a certain tier within the context of the tiering system.

I did explain why it’s 1-B in other post on the second page of this thread. You can read that post if you want. I don’t know why I should have to repeat myself over again for your sake. And you never expressed what’s unclear about this explanation so until then I have no obligation to actually go over it with you.

That's not your choice.

Actually it is my choice. Why would I waste time explaining why something is 1-A if you don’t even believe the 1-B structure exist? That doesn’t really make sense.

 

[Deagonx]

The Writer is simply describing how the universe works and since we know the universe functions like this we can apply these statements from the Writer

If we 'knew the universe functioned like that' we wouldn't need those statements. I fully disagree that the statements are made in such a way that we can apply them to the cosmology without proper evidence. You just tried to pass off an Edgar Allan Poe quote as proof about the cosmology.

It was my misinterpretation that caused me to wrongly paraphrase the statement. You have no proof I’m lying.

You can cling to your plausible deniability as long as you want. You lied and it's plain as day. No one here is going to fall for the idea that you "paraphrased" the words "outside of" to "transcends" accidentally.

Actually it is my choice. Why would I waste time explaining why something is 1-A

Okay, then this CRT is concluded.

 

[Antvasima]

So should I close this thread then, or is there any revision that still needs to be handled based on it?

 

[Deagonx]

All of the suggested abilities have been added, and the suggested tiers lack evidence/explanation and have been rejected by those who have commented so far. I don't think there's anything left to do here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alonik

If you have anything important that you wish to add, please send me a PM about it.