Animal Man discussion

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Not exactly, as far as I understand

Pretty sure that isn’t necessary.

So if you were to transcend the concept of dimensions or transcend dimensionality, it's Low 1-A instead of 1-A now?

 

[JustAPokemonFan]

Where is sandman? @Sandman31

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

Would you be willing to help us out here please?

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem like anything will happen here.

 

[Overlord775]

regardless of how the 1-A talk goes, Animal man should at the very least be up to Low 2-C since he made a universe

 

[Antvasima]

If that is accurate, yes.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write easy to understand explanations of what currently needs to be evaluated here please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I’m reading the Animal Man comics, I just got them. Can’t say I’ve reached any relevant part to the discussion
But if someone can tell me the relevant issues at least that will save some time

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[Xearsay]

I’m reading the Animal Man comics, I just got them. Can’t say I’ve reached any relevant part to the discussion
But if someone can tell me the relevant issues at least that will save some time

You can find all the relevant issues from where I got the information stated in my larger post on page 1.

 

[Tarang123]

So if you were to transcend the concept of dimensions or transcend dimensionality, it's Low 1-A instead of 1-A now?

Idk, you should probably ask a mod, but I think it's still 1A

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it strictly depends on the scale of the cosmology that is being transcended.

 

[JustAPokemonFan]

Does surpassing dimensional Marvel stacks put you at 1-A?

 

[Antvasima]

Only Low 1-A for transcending all of the higher dimensions in Marvel's multiverse, I think.

 

[Tarang123]

I think that it strictly depends on the scale of the cosmology that is being transcended.

I mean, technically if that were the case then verses like Megami Tensei would have already been downgraded from 1A. So maybe that's still there, but I'll just ask Ultima or someone else

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Alonik]

Just trying to revive this post. The ideas said by @Pain_to12 make more sense in an overall context.

The Shamanic Universe is a hierarchy of three world:

1. The first world - Morphogen field - Hell; the lowest run on the ladder and exists beneath man's experience, is the domain charted by quantum physics. - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995
2. Human Domain; the threedimensional world - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995
3. The Imaginal Realms - Heaven - Dreamtime; is at the top of the cosmology and transcends man's experience. - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995

Starting with the Morphogen Field, it is interesting to note that it is far from Low 1-A, because it exists hierarchically inferior to the threedimensional world, besides that this is exactly why it is the quantum realm, it is the realm where matter is infinitesimal, and for that reason is the heart of matter - Animal Man Vol 1 #18 December, 1989

• The same field is said to be Platonic-like, because it is where the forms of the universe come from, where the templates come from; The field is a mesh of countless smaller fields; each one a blueprint which guides the formation of atoms into molecules, molecules into cells, cells into tissues, organs, systems. Every species is represented by its own field, its own ideal form, and is a template, and that's like Plato's archetypal reality. Animal Man Vol 1 #18 December, 1989

There is not much to say, it is just an archetypal microverse from which the universe and all its forms sprang. About the Space beyond all knowing it is the realm that precedes the whole structure of the universe, and therefore has no space and time there. The physical representation of this realm is the Antagon, which was created as an opposition to life millions of years ago, its job is to consume everything that exists, and that's why Buddy that everything would be swallowed up by the great darkness that preceded everything. Basically, the Nemictcuwets which is the darkness was overcome by the power of the m-field, through them going there and transforming into roots like three trees, becoming the Wuteiatek, to contest the existence of the darkness. In other words, instead of the space-time being swallowed by the darkness they created a new one where the influence of darkness no longer existed. - Animal Man Vol 1 #50 August, 1992

Now about the third realm, the top of the cosmology.

It is interesting to note that this scan here was used to say that the third realm is 1-A, and because it has a path going up to infinity it would be 1-A+, however was not sent the following scan, where it is said that;

the fields of consciousness are not limited to three dimensions, we have access to these higher dimensions... The Imaginal realms of the Shaman or the Mystic. In Physics, certain problems become easier to solve if we postulate higher dimensions - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995

1. The life web spans both space and time, connecting the past and the future: Animal Man Vol 1 #86 August, 1995
2. The three kingdoms of the shamanic universe are Mind, Energy, and Spirit, and they all are the Web of Life: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995
3. The world of souls is inside a white hole in the center of time: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995

Now when he was ascending through the web of life, the point is, he sees that the web extended to infinity, so he ascends and sees himself reflected in higher dimensions. The point here is: The context marks the difference between the human world and the higher dimensional world, which is the third world.

Aside from the fact that the shamanic journey is just like the experience Morrison had, where he says:

Basically, it played out like an alien abduction or a shamanic journey. I was taken out of my body, peeled off the surface of the four-dimensional universe of space-time, and taken somewhere else. I found myself in a huge, azure blue vault that felt infinite and enclosed at the same time, like a vaulted cathedral inhabited by morphing quicksilver blobs of intelligence. Somehow I was one of them, or at least I was part of a gestalt of minds that represented “one” of them. It was explained to me that I was in a higher mathematical space, where conventional time and space were simply directions, like up and down are in 4-D. From this vantage point, I could see from the Big Bang to the end of the universe, and it was all happening at the same instant. interviewmagazine

And even though Morrison didn't write chapter #80, the whole volume is based on what he started about the Shamanic universe in his early chapters, and it's very hard to believe that he didn't have an influence when what he says in the interview is like Shaman's journey through the web of life.

@Confluctor @Ultima_Reality @Antvasima

At least Low 1-C is something that is fairly concrete here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Alonik. That seems to make sense to me, but we should wait for further staff input as well.

 

[Xearsay]

Starting with the Morphogen Field, it is interesting to note that it is far from Low 1-A, because it exists hierarchically inferior to the threedimensional world, besides that this is exactly why it is the quantum realm, it is the realm where matter is infinitesimal, and for that reason is the heart of matter - Animal Man Vol 1 #18 December, 1989

I never said the first kingdom was low 1-A. Matter of fact I don’t even recall giving it a tier. The only realm I claimed was low 1-A was the space beyond all knowing.

Now about the third realm, the top of the cosmology.

It is interesting to note that this scan here was used to say that the third realm is 1-A, and because it has a path going up to infinity it would be 1-A+, however was not sent the following scan, where it is said that;

Again, I never claimed "because it has a path going up to infinity" as justification for it being 1-A+. I used a scan mentioning that it was an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds coupled with the scans that mentioned them being by definition beyond space and time and more fundamental and foundational realities.

1. The life web spans both space and time, connecting the past and the future: Animal Man Vol 1 #86 August, 1995
2. The three kingdoms of the shamanic universe are Mind, Energy, and Spirit, and they all are the Web of Life: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995
3. The world of souls is inside a white hole in the center of time: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995

Now when he was ascending through the web of life, the point is, he sees that the web extended to infinity, so he ascends and sees himself reflected in higher dimensions. The point here is: The context marks the difference between the human world and the higher dimensional world, which is the third world.

I understand this already, but I still never used "the lifeweb stretching to infinity" as justification for anything. Also just to be clear about this, when they compare the imaginal realms of the third kingdom to higher dimensions, as specified later on in the run, they meant like higher dimensions of the psyche or higher dimensional fields of consciousness. They're not talking about actual like spacetime dimensions.

 

[Alonik]

I understand this already, but I still never used "the lifeweb stretching to infinity" as justification for anything. Also just to be clear about this, when they compare the imaginal realms of the third kingdom to higher dimensions, as specified later on in the run, they meant like higher dimensions of the psyche or higher dimensional fields of consciousness. They're not talking about actual like spacetime dimensions.

They are talking about higher dimensions of space. Whether it is imaginary realms, realms of the mind, or the dimension of ideas/thoughts, it clearly states that this is higher dimension than 3D, hence, spacetime.

 

[Alonik]

I never said the first kingdom was low 1-A. Matter of fact I don’t even recall giving it a tier. The only realm I claimed was low 1-A was the space beyond all knowing.
Again, I never claimed "because it has a path going up to infinity" as justification for it being 1-A+. I used a scan mentioning that it was an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds coupled with the scans that mentioned them being by definition beyond space and time and more fundamental and foundational realities.

Things had been mentioned about M-Field earlier. And thanks for reminding me.

Your argue:

3. for the 1A+

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).

It is interesting to note that here in this scan it is said about: "A World within a larger world, maybe a world within an infinite number of larger worlds", however it was never said that it is an infinite number of larger worlds one larger than the other in an infinite hierarchy, if you see, this world that the Meme entered was the human mind, so much that he is sitting on a brain, in the next scan we are shown that this possible infinite number of larger worlds is the mind of other humans, and they are parallel worlds - parallel minds, not an infinite hierarchy on top of each other, where each larger world encompasses the lower one infinitely.



This was all still in the three-dimensional world, the big idea would be born in the higher dimension that transcends the 3D plane. In the last scan it even concludes the meme's metaphor about the Big Idea being born in a plane higher than the human world, in the third realm.

• "Pandemonium is an imaginal reflection of what is happening in your world. The network of computers and telecommunication crisscrossing the planet have created the circuits, the very axial latticework of a global brain. If this network can be properly combined with the human mind, we shall witness the birth of the world soul... The Big Idea."

 

[Xearsay]

however it was never said that it is an infinite number of larger worlds one larger than the other in an infinite hierarchy,

Why would it need to specify what is already implied? The first world being contained inside of a larger world already implies a system or organization in which the worlds are superior to one another. Meaning if there are an infinite number of larger worlds that would directly create an infinite hierarchy as the system has already been shown to us to be worlds that are larger than each other and containing the last.

in the next scan we are shown that this possible infinite number of larger worlds is the mind of other humans, and they are parallel worlds - parallel minds, not an infinite hierarchy on top of each other, where each larger world encompasses the lower one infinitely.

I read through all the scans. Literally no where is the possible infinite number of larger worlds shown to be the minds of other humans or parallel to one another.

This was all still in the three-dimensional world, the big idea would be born in the higher dimension that transcends the 3D plane. In the last scan it even concludes the meme's metaphor about the Big Idea being born in a plane higher than the human world, in the third realm.

The meme/idea existed in the mind, not in the three dimensional world. Also it was stated the world soul/big idea would be born in a higher plane of existence and that higher plane of existence wasn’t the third kingdom. It was the worlds beyond the third kingdom as that’s where the World Soul was found by Animal Man.

 

[Alonik]

Why would it need to specify what is already implied? The first world being contained inside of a larger world already implies a system or organization in which the worlds are superior to one another. Meaning if there are an infinite number of larger worlds that would directly create an infinite hierarchy as the system has already been shown to us to be worlds that are larger than each other and containing the last.
I read through all the scans. Literally no where is the possible infinite number of larger worlds shown to be the minds of other humans or parallel to one another.

It's not a hierarchy, but if you couldn't associate the representation of the text with the art (which is not even necessary, since the metaphor is clear), I can only wait for the actual knowledgeable members.

The meme/idea existed in the mind, not in the three dimensional world. Also it was stated the world soul/big idea would be born in a higher plane of existence and that higher plane of existence wasn’t the third kingdom. It was the worlds beyond the third kingdom as that’s where the World Soul was found by Animal Man.

• "Pandemonium is an imaginal reflection of what is happening in your world. The network of computers and telecommunication crisscrossing the planet have created the circuits, the very axial latticework of a global brain. If this network can be properly combined with the human mind, we shall witness the birth of the world soul... The Big Idea."

Anansi thought that the Big Idea would be born in her kingdom, it is irrelevant where the World Soul was born here. Anyway, the text is very clear, there is nothing against the worlds being the brains of humans, but if you want to answer and derail the thread that's fine, I'm waiting for those who will judge the two interpretations.

 

[Xearsay]

It's not a hierarchy, but if you couldn't associate the representation of the text with the art (which is not even necessary, since the metaphor is clear), I can only wait for the actual knowledgeable members.

I mean if all you can say is “it’s not a hierarchy” despite the worlds being stated to be superior to one another then you don’t have an argument anymore.

Anyway, the text is very clear, there is nothing against the worlds being the brains of humans, but if you want to answer and derail the thread that's fine, I'm waiting for those who will judge the two interpretations.

I think you’re taking the art way too literally. The place where the idea/meme lives is supposed to be “the mind” not a literal human organ. And the mind is basically just the third kingdom of imaginal worlds which are literally described as existing outside of space and time, while being more fundamental and foundational realities. And obviously our literal human brains are not conceptual and more basic realities that exist outside of space and time.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist

What do you think about Alonik's posts above?

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. I haven't gone over the Animal Man series yet.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Just trying to revive this post. The ideas said by @Pain_to12 make more sense in an overall context.

The Shamanic Universe is a hierarchy of three world:

1. The first world - Morphogen field - Hell; the lowest run on the ladder and exists beneath man's experience, is the domain charted by quantum physics. - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995
2. Human Domain; the threedimensional world - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995
3. The Imaginal Realms - Heaven - Dreamtime; is at the top of the cosmology and transcends man's experience. - Animal Man Vol 1 #82 April, 1995

Starting with the Morphogen Field, it is interesting to note that it is far from Low 1-A, because it exists hierarchically inferior to the threedimensional world, besides that this is exactly why it is the quantum realm, it is the realm where matter is infinitesimal, and for that reason is the heart of matter - Animal Man Vol 1 #18 December, 1989

• The same field is said to be Platonic-like, because it is where the forms of the universe come from, where the templates come from; The field is a mesh of countless smaller fields; each one a blueprint which guides the formation of atoms into molecules, molecules into cells, cells into tissues, organs, systems. Every species is represented by its own field, its own ideal form, and is a template, and that's like Plato's archetypal reality. Animal Man Vol 1 #18 December, 1989

There is not much to say, it is just an archetypal microverse from which the universe and all its forms sprang. About the Space beyond all knowing it is the realm that precedes the whole structure of the universe, and therefore has no space and time there. The physical representation of this realm is the Antagon, which was created as an opposition to life millions of years ago, its job is to consume everything that exists, and that's why Buddy that everything would be swallowed up by the great darkness that preceded everything. Basically, the Nemictcuwets which is the darkness was overcome by the power of the m-field, through them going there and transforming into roots like three trees, becoming the Wuteiatek, to contest the existence of the darkness. In other words, instead of the space-time being swallowed by the darkness they created a new one where the influence of darkness no longer existed. - Animal Man Vol 1 #50 August, 1992

Now about the third realm, the top of the cosmology.

It is interesting to note that this scan here was used to say that the third realm is 1-A, and because it has a path going up to infinity it would be 1-A+, however was not sent the following scan, where it is said that;

1. The life web spans both space and time, connecting the past and the future: Animal Man Vol 1 #86 August, 1995
2. The three kingdoms of the shamanic universe are Mind, Energy, and Spirit, and they all are the Web of Life: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995
3. The world of souls is inside a white hole in the center of time: Animal Man Vol 1 #87 - September, 1995

Now when he was ascending through the web of life, the point is, he sees that the web extended to infinity, so he ascends and sees himself reflected in higher dimensions. The point here is: The context marks the difference between the human world and the higher dimensional world, which is the third world.

Aside from the fact that the shamanic journey is just like the experience Morrison had, where he says:

And even though Morrison didn't write chapter #80, the whole volume is based on what he started about the Shamanic universe in his early chapters, and it's very hard to believe that he didn't have an influence when what he says in the interview is like Shaman's journey through the web of life.

@Confluctor @Ultima_Reality @Antvasima

At least Low 1-C is something that is fairly concrete here.

interesting

 

[Deagonx]

Hmm. To me none of that sounds anywhere near as high as you claim.

That's basically where I am at with this. I don't see any of this as being remotely as high as Xearsay has been claiming, and I think the evidence provided is very shakey and based on a lot of assumptions. I got too busy to continue the discussion, but his description that I "conceded" anything is inaccurate, I found him consistently unable to provide evidence for his assertions and a lot of it was based on assumptions that I found unreasonable.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Finally got and finished the necessary comics that I think are relevant to the thread and I agree with Allonik and also Deagon, they are not as high and the evidence is shaky and really just joining things together. I will reply to his last tag to me later on when I have time.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alonik @Deagonx

Thank you for helping out. So what revisions do you think should be applied based on this thread?

 

[Deagonx]

I think some of the new abilities are fine to be added but I think these crazy tier changes should be left out as they are based on a lot of conjecture about the cosmology -- primarily in assuming that everything stated about Bohm's theories taken as gospel despite the fact that half a dozen cosmologies are references and mashed together. He said I can't refute post #56 but he literally edited it to remove parts that I refuted so it's fairly clear that this isn't a sure thing. Way too big of a tier change for the level of evidence provided.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Can Xearesy go over his justifications again?

 

[Deagonx]

Can Xearesy go over his justifications again?

Oh and thats one more thing. I'd strongly recommend that the justifications actually explain why the evidence supports the tier. Saying this:

"It should be tier 1-A because (x) happened" isn't really helpful unless (x) is incredibly straightforward in its relationship to a 1-A tier. Without explaining why specifically that event correlates to the criteria, everyone else has to guess why they thought that and it can be very difficult to engage with.

 

[Antvasima]

I think some of the new abilities are fine to be added but I think these crazy tier changes should be left out as they are based on a lot of conjecture about the cosmology -- primarily in assuming that everything stated about Bohm's theories taken as gospel despite the fact that half a dozen cosmologies are references and mashed together. He said I can't refute post #56 but he literally edited it to remove parts that I refuted so it's fairly clear that this isn't a sure thing. Way too big of a tier change for the level of evidence provided.

Okay. Would you be willing to appropriately edit our Animal Man page please? You should probably mention our reasoning for his tiering in an explanation section near the bottom of his page.

 

[Xearsay]

What are you talking about? I never took everything about Bohm theory as gospel so I don’t know why you keep saying that. Most of my information about the cosmology comes from the 20+ scans I utilized. Also I only edited out like a few things from post #56 and most of it wasn’t because of you. I only made like one change because of you and it was about the World Tree.

 

[Xearsay]

Additionally while I still don’t agree with Aloniks main points, I do see where his interpretation is coming from. And for the purpose of getting this thread done I’m willing to accept the imaginal realms as only 1-A rather than 1-A+. So we can ignore the possibly infinite worlds scan if everyone is comfortable with that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alonik @Deagonx