Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[XXKINGXX69]

Hold on, weren't they suns in the Sixth Dimension? You can argue they're different from normal suns since they're in a place beyond human understanding. So its a 1 time amp and should be removed, like what Antvasima said

 

[Antvasima]

If Mxyzptlk increased the entire Justice League to the same trans-multiversal 1-A size as the World Forger, and Superman powered up with energy of that nature, that might have made some sense, even though Mxyzptlk is not that powerful, but the 6th Dimension was first stated to be larger than the multiverse, and then the replacement multiverse that the World Forger created within it was shown as a "regular" space version, with the WF shown at a tiny size compared to it, rather than a mere hand of his being larger than all of it combined, which would have fit with how Perpetua and her children in the 6th Dimension were previously portrayed, so the story was incoherently written in this regard.

As for the 1999 Last God of Krypton storyline, the Post-Rebirth version of Superman explicitly shares the history of his Post-Crisis counterpart, so it is a legitimate comparison.

Also, does anybody else remember other times when Superman had to amplify himself with sun-dips? Didn't he do so in order to move a planet during the "Our Worlds at War" storyline, for example?

 

[Swerzye29038]

If Mxyzptlk increased the entire Justice League to the same trans-multiversal 1-A size as the World Forger, and Superman powered up with energy of that nature, that might have made some sense, even though Mxyzptlk is not that powerful, but the 6th Dimension was first stated to be larger than the multiverse, and then the replacement multiverse that the World Forger created within it was shown as a "regular" space version, with the WF shown at a tiny size compared to it, rather than a mere hand of his being larger than all of it combined, which would have fit with how Perpetua and her children in the 6th Dimension were previously portrayed, so the story was incoherently written in this regard.

Yeah, more than likely they were shown as being larger than creation itself For illustration purposes, to show that they are the ones working on the multiverse behind the scenes. And even if they were at one point larger than the Multiverse, it clearly is no longer the case. The Sixth Dimension and the beings that inhabit it aren’t quite literally larger than the rest of reality, otherwise World Forger wouldn’t be shown as being comparable in size to 3D creatures almost anytime he’s shown, this entire fight scene wouldn’t make sense, and the Justice League or Superman wouldn’t be able to even exist in or comprehend it. In fact, Mr Mxyzptlk never mentions anything about size at all when amping Superman, iirc; I could be mistaken.

 

[Swerzye29038]

If Mxyzptlk increased the entire Justice League to the same trans-multiversal 1-A size as the World Forger, and Superman powered up with energy of that nature, that might have made some sense, even though Mxyzptlk is not that powerful, but the 6th Dimension was first stated to be larger than the multiverse, and then the replacement multiverse that the World Forger created within it was shown as a "regular" space version, with the WF shown at a tiny size compared to it, rather than a mere hand of his being larger than all of it combined, which would have fit with how Perpetua and her children in the 6th Dimension were previously portrayed, so the story was incoherently written in this regard.

As for the 1999 Last God of Krypton storyline, the Post-Rebirth version of Superman explicitly shares the history of his Post-Crisis counterpart, so it is a legitimate comparison.

Also, does anybody else remember other times when Superman had to amplify himself with sun-dips? Didn't he do so in order to move a planet during the "Our Worlds at War" storyline, for example?

Superman is wildly inconsistent in his strength. In one story he can curbstomped characters who punch around stars, and the next second he is performing the insane and mind blowing feat of toppling Mountains

To stay on topic, IMO, the key should be removed entirely. It was a one time amp in the sixth dimension, and there’s no evidence from what I’ve seen showing that he’d gain the same level as power flying through normal suns.

 

[Deagonx]

I obviously think that a 1-A Superman seems like an extreme "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity outlier that would completely mess up our entire scaling system for DC.
Would you be willing to help out here please?

I agree. I think it makes absolutely no sense and would be better interpreted as an anti-feat for World Forger than a feat for Supes.

It should be considered an outlier 100%.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I honestly think the feat is fine. Superman has always been the portrayal of ultimate heroism who will save the day, somehow. Saying it's an outlier is very arbitrary and based off the numbers rather than the context. This scales to no one but Supes so there's really no issue.

I agree with this partially in regards to the feat being an outlier or not.

I have to agree here that we can't use decades old stuff to make new ones seems like outlier. Things change.

But mostly this.

Whether the key should stay, on the other hand, is another thing entirely. But if the feat is legit, no one else scales to it and doesn't get contradicted by anything: Yeah, I'd agree with 1-A straight up.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree. I think it makes absolutely no sense and would be better interpreted as an anti-feat for World Forger than a feat for Supes.

It should be considered an outlier 100%.

Except one thing. It’s a literal amp. An one-off amp can’t be an outlier by definition. Yes, he never got this strong from stars. But him being 2-A from a High 6-A source of energy makes just as little sense. It’s amp. It’s clearly specified to be the biggest amp he ever got. Arguments of incredulity don’t debunk it. Also, he literally destroyed a multiverse while doing it, so AoE fallacy won’t workceither

 

[The_Impress]

...it's not an outlier lol, not in any conventional sense anyway.

Like I want opposition to actually think of their points well, you can argue that the amp being presumed to this extent is nonsense, that is the arguments you should frame, but when this is THE SOLE FEAT, you can't have outliers in that.

Personal opinion the feat is fine imo, like yes it's kinda dumb, but it's DC dumb. There is similar lovey-dovey hopeful crap all across the verse and even in pages. Accompany it with a note to discourage scaling, and it's good to list.

 

[Swerzye29038]

...it's not an outlier lol, not in any conventional sense anyway.

Like I want opposition to actually think of their points well, you can argue that the amp being presumed to this extent is nonsense, that is the arguments you should frame, but when this is THE SOLE FEAT, you can't have outliers in that.

Personal opinion the feat is fine imo, like yes it's kinda dumb, but it's DC dumb. There is similar lovey-dovey hopeful crap all across the verse and even in pages. Accompany it with a note to discourage scaling, and it's good to list.

personally don’t believe it’s an outlier, I believe it’s a one time amp and shouldn’t be on his profile at all.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

personally don’t believe it’s an outlier, I believe it’s a one time amp and shouldn’t be on his profile at all.

Is there a single reason we don’t include one time amps on the profiles

 

[Deagonx]

Except one thing. It’s a literal amp. An one-off amp can’t be an outlier by definition.

According to what definition?

Yes, he never got this strong from stars. But him being 2-A from a High 6-A source of energy makes just as little sense. It’s amp. It’s clearly specified to be the biggest amp he ever got. Arguments of incredulity don’t debunk it

You've outlined precisely why it shouldn't be in the profile. The fact that it was a one time amp doesn't change the info you just stated. He's never gotten this stronger from stars. The feat doesn't make any sense.

Also, he literally destroyed a multiverse while doing it, so AoE fallacy won’t workceither

He did not destroy a multiverse. The editor explained that what's happening in that scene isn't Superman personally destroying the multiverse, but preventing World Forger from striking his hammer and having the new multiverse descend upon and replace the current multiverse, after which it disintegrated. It isn't a feat for Superman.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Is there a single reason we don’t include one time amps on the profiles

Unless I’m mistaken, I didn’t think that one time amps would be included on profiles?

If this were the case, why don’t any other Superman keys have a “higher with sun dips” notation?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

According to what definition?


You've outlined precisely why it shouldn't be in the profile. The fact that it was a one time amp doesn't change the info you just stated. He's never gotten this stronger from stars. The feat doesn't make any sense.


He did not destroy a multiverse. The editor explained that what's happening in that scene isn't Superman personally destroying the multiverse, but preventing World Forger from striking his hammer and having the new multiverse descend upon and replace the current multiverse, after which it disintegrated. It isn't a feat for Superman.

He’s never got this strong from the Stars, he never absorbed this much. Him gaining any kind of energy from them is already bullshit. We must admit and accept

 

[The_Impress]

personally don’t believe it’s an outlier, I believe it’s a one time amp and shouldn’t be on his profile at all.

I mean, I wrote the notability standards, it falls under 'em for being series finale to important runs, + leads into modern DC events very blatantly.

So yeah it's notable, and by proxy indexable.

 

[The_Impress]

Is there a single reason we don’t include one time amps on the profiles

9000 keys for irrelevant shit shouldn't be on files. Basic conclusion.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

9000 keys for irrelevant shit shouldn't be on files. Basic conclusion.

A literal 1-A tier isn’t irrelevant

 

[Deagonx]

He’s never got this strong from the Stars, he never absorbed this much. Him gaining any kind of energy from them is already bullshit. We must admit and accept

This doesn't really address the concerns I brought up.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Also, he literally destroyed a multiverse while doing it, so AoE fallacy won’t workceither

I just want to clarify here; Superman didn’t destroy World Forgers Multiverse, he prevented him from landing the final blow which would’ve replaced the (at that time) current multiverse, causing it to be destroyed.

It would be more accurate to say that Superman caused the destruction of World Forgers Multiverse, oppose to actually physically destroying it himself. Even if he did destroy it, I’m confused as to how this would even be 2-A, as World Forgers Multiverse only had 52 universes.

 

[The_Impress]

A literal 1-A tier isn’t irrelevant

Ignoring greater context and going just by that, yes it ******* is.

"Oh wow this one-time thing has big TIERS TIERS GREAT YES YES TIERS" isn't shit we're promoting on the files if it means NOTHING to the character's greater history. WE list tiers, writers don't. They mean NOTHING to the character's legacy.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I have mentioned previously, the feat is definitely an outlier in terms of how extreme, nonsensical, and inconsistent it is in relation to everything else that Superman has done, including all previous sun-dips, so I am not budging regarding that it is extremely unreliable for us to list it.

I also think that a one-time power-up in a manner that has never been shown to reach anywhere near this scale previously isn't relevant to list in the first place.

 

[Confluctor]

Is there a single reason we don’t include one time amps on the profiles

Too many unnecessary stats. A million amps and stats. Do you wanna add all?

 

[The_Impress]

Lunge I'm actually gonna say as someone who wants the key to be on the page, you're actually giving the worst possible angles for it to stay.

The damn thing fits notability criteria to a T, why the absolute hell are you giving nonsensical reasonings like "WELL IT IS 1-A SO IT SHOULD STAY", like, no, that's the wrong reason.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Too many unnecessary stats. A million amps and stats. Do you wanna add all?

If it’s as significant as this one, yes. Especially since it’s something Clark would theoretically always be able to access with enough prep

 

[Swerzye29038]

I mean, I wrote the notability standards, it falls under 'em for being series finale to important runs, + leads into modern DC events very blatantly.

So yeah it's notable, and by proxy indexable.

Superman’s profile reads “4-B. 2-A after an unknown number of sun dips”. If it was only included on his key for the sake of canon, why does the profile imply that Superman could become Multiversal+ after flying through “an unknown number of suns” despite the fact that the feat being used for justification took place in the Sixth Dimension, with Sixth Dimensional suns?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Ignoring greater context and going just by that, yes it ******* is.

"Oh wow this one-time thing has big TIERS TIERS GREAT YES YES TIERS" isn't shit we're promoting on the files if it means NOTHING to the character's greater history. WE list tiers, writers don't. They mean NOTHING to the character's legacy.

It’s not so much “AAAAAAA 1-A CLARK LESGOOOOOOOOOOOOOO”, but rather that since this feat is actually significant, you can’t just write it off as something irrelevant cause it didn’t appear enough. Not to mention that Clark can seemingly achieve this on his own, no side amps required

 

[The_Impress]

Superman’s profile reads “4-B. 2-A after an unknown number of sun dips”. If it was only included on his key for the sake of canon, why does the profile imply that Superman could become Multiversal+ after flying through “an unknown number of suns” despite the fact that the feat used for justification took place in the Sixth Dimension, with Sixth Dimensional suns?

So your argument should be "hey this should be listed as a key not just a thing he could do", not, " Remove it altogether ".

Which, fine, seems agreeable.

 

[Confluctor]

So are we pretending that sixth dimensional suns act the same way as normal suns?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a single outlier feat that is far too extreme to fit with anything else is definitely not notable enough to stay in the page. We need to use some measure of consistency to scale from. That is part of our explicit superhero comic book scaling rules.

Also, I agree with the points of Deagonx.

 

[Confluctor]

Let's stop calling it outlier please. Its not. Because of the context. What we should be asking... Does the context make this feat applicable for a higher tier? Or not? And if it does, do we treat sixth dimensional suns as normal suns?

 

[The_Impress]

Well, a single outlier feat that is far too extreme to fit with anything else is definitely not notable enough to stay in the page. We need to use some measure of consistency to scale from. That is part of our explicit superhero comic book scaling rules.

Nah it's from an event, it's allowed to stay :v

Like if you were to treat it that way, ALOT more crucial keys, even for scaling, will be affected hard.

 

[Antvasima]

So are we pretending that sixth dimensional suns act the same way as normal suns?

The problem is that the 6th Dimension was explicitly stated to be the control room of the multiverse, where The World Forger crafts the structures of the regular 3rd Dimension multiverse, and he created said new multiverse to be a better, but otherwise comparable, replacement for the old one, not something inherently 6th-dimensional.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's stop calling it outlier please. Its not. Because of the context. What we should be asking... Does the context make this feat applicable for a higher tier? Or not? And if it does, do we treat sixth dimensional suns as normal suns?

As far as I can tell, it fulfills all of the previously listed 5 potential reasons for an outlier at the same time. It is one of the most extreme outliers ever written in superhero comic book history, and we regularly consider feats just 1-2 ters above the standard values as outliers for other verses.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

As far as I can tell, it fulfills all of the previously listed 5 potential reasons for an outlier at the same time. It is one of the most extreme outliers ever written in superhero comic book history, and we regularly consider feats just 1-2 ters above the standard values as outliers for other verses.

As far as I can tell, all of the 5 reasons were debunked. Something that has no anti feats can not be an outlier

 

[Confluctor]

So if we are treating it as normal suns, then I personally don't see the problem with why it shouldn't scale to his true form. We have no antifeats so far, so should be fine to stay until we get anti feats.

Also people grow in power tremendously in comics, we should compare it to the last few years rather than comics for over a decade ago.

 

[Antvasima]

Nah it's from an event, it's allowed to stay :v

Like if you were to treat it that way, ALOT more crucial keys, even for scaling, will be affected hard.

We make no exceptions for events in our rules. Feats of a scale that does not remotely fit with anything else whatsoever are not remotely consistent, and as such should be removed. In addition, it was a temporary power-up that lasted for a few pages and as such not notable enough. And in addition to that, the writer completely ignored the previously established mechanic for this particular power-up, as it previously only allowed Superman to move a small planet or get beat up less quickly by Cythonna.

 

[Confluctor]

Actually, in terms of popularity, it's one of the most popular superman sequences ever. So, idk about the notability argument honestly

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I can tell, all of the 5 reasons were debunked. Something that has no anti feats can not be an outlier

None of it was debunked as far as I could tell.

Here are the listed possible outlier reasons again:

- 1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several planetary feats shows himself capable of destroying a star, we cannot consider him as an outlier, for the simple reason that the jump between categories is not extreme enough to be so, no matter how big the jump between energy values we attribute to him. Having previously performed an interquartile range, we already know the answer. If the character has very few feats, we can ignore this point.

- 2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Outliers occur rarely. If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also skip this point.

- 3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, surely it is not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with kryptonite, it is not.

- 4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

- 5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to the outlier.

The answer to all of the above questions is definitely "YES" as far as I can tell.

 

[Antvasima]

So if we are treating it as normal suns, then I personally don't see the problem with why it shouldn't scale to his true form. We have no antifeats so far, so should be fine to stay until we get anti feats.

Also people grow in power tremendously in comics, we should compare it to the last few years rather than comics for over a decade ago.

We have two antifeats just from the top of my head, and there have likely been numerous other previous sun-dips. I have mentioned this over and over now.

Also, again, sun-dips are not the sole issue. It completely breaks the narrative of all Superman's established power levels throughout his entire history, including the overpowered Pre-Crisis version.

Do you even listen to yourself. You are seriously arguing for that Superman suddenly gained a scale of power many orders of infinity above his regular scale, not for rule of cool plot-induced stupidity, but for somehow perfectly legitimate reasons. Don't you see how inherently absurd this is?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am never going to budge regarding that Superman having a one-time event in which the writer cheated and let the character punch absolutely ridiculously above his own league is not anywhere near consistent enough to list, and would greatly appreciate if everybody here leave their "this would feel really neat" biases at the door in order to focus on our main purpose in this wiki, which is reliability and accuracy.

 

[Confluctor]

About the antifeats... Anything from recent years? Like in the last 3 - 5 years?

I am not saying it's not absurd, but we already give absurd level of stats to tons of weeb verses. Somehow it doesn't break for them but it does here... Idk.

Also if this was such a huge outlier, why did you accept it in the original thread? Most comic stats can't applied without your approval, so why? Genuinely wondering cause I wasn't around back then.

Safer solution here is to just give him "higher with sun dips" idk. Easy way out.