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DMC PoC continued

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GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
If we knew that..it wouldn't be a mystery among the fandom riddled with fan theories now would it?? We only concern ourselves with evidence at hand and known information or something that can deciphered out of it with other context.
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So you can't prove it then, that mean contradiction, somehow PoC said all demon can regen, but Sparda who is god tier demon can't regen, but we are allow to ignore that in favor of wanking the series up by focus on other???
 
Let's ignore that the list of abilities that gave Dante all of his powers is called Sparda Physiology ?

Seriously, such claim is just absurd and useless for this thread
 
Vietthai96 said:
So you can't prove it then, that mean contradiction, somehow PoC said all demon can regen, but Sparda who is god tier demon can't regen, but we are allow to ignore that in favor of wanking the series up by focus on other???
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Seriously?? Now you are going off of conjectures and making claims??
Prove they were alive to regen then we will talk.
 
Sparda was killed off screen and we have no idea how killed him or even how they did so.

To use this an an anti feat would require a shit load of random assumptions. And if the anti feat is ever expanded upon (if you can even call it that tbh.) then so be it. But at the moment in time that part of the story is left completely unknown, so to argue that this is evidence against the current accepted levels of regeneration would be an assumption, one that's unsupported as well.


If that's expanded upon in the next game and if it turns out he was killed by a hobo with a knife or some dumb shit then we'd consider that as a legitimate anti feat but right now? There's no anti feat for Sparda's death since we don't know the details on his death.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Seriously?? Now you are going off of conjectures and making claims??
Prove they were alive to regen then we will talk.
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How they are not alive then, or you want to deny Dante and Vergil existences??. Main Sparda was dead, and not return, how are you going to claim that somehow, he have High Godly or Mid Godly regen can't regen himself when he die, die in combat or in normal situation is still die; you can't even prove that he resurrect to another being, or he actually regen but not appear or someone neg his regen, or he willied himself to not return. Now next is Beastheads Sparda, he was stated to be betrayed and got killed, and somehow he not return at all, nothing prove someone neg him, or he willed to death.

LordGinSama said:
Sparda was killed off screen and we have no idea how killed him or even how they did so.

To use this an an anti feat would require a shit load of random assumptions. And if the anti feat is ever expanded upon (if you can even call it that tbh.) then so be it. But at the moment in time that part of the story is left completely unknown, so to argue that this is evidence against the current accepted levels of regeneration would be an assumption, one that's unsupported as well.


If that's expanded upon in the next game and if it turns out he was killed by a hobo with a knife or some dumb shit then we'd consider that as a legitimate anti feat but right now? There's no anti feat for Sparda's death since we don't know the details on his death.
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Again, while Sparda did get killed of screen, PoC was literally stated that ALL DEMON can regen, that mean it is an anti feat unless we can prove that something prevent both Spardas (or at least Beastheads one) regen
 
Stop derailing this stuff with Sparda, can you move this somewhere else and be on topic? Also again you need to ask for permission to comment on a STAFF THREAD. The same goes for you Gin
 
Alright, so, I can't promise anything. I've been busy, and will probably continue to be busy for a while. And with how long this thread has seemingly gone on for, I really have no guarantee I'd be able to go through all of the discussion so far without a really good and concise summary from both sides.

However, I'll try to review all of this and give a response when I can, since I can see that help is needed.
 
DarkGrath said:
Alright, so, I can't promise anything. I've been busy, and will probably continue to be busy for a while. And with how long this thread has seemingly gone on for, I really have no guarantee I'd be able to go through all of the discussion so far without a really good and concise summary from both sides.

However, I'll try to review all of this and give a response when I can, since I can see that help is needed.
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Theglassman12 said:
The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.
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here's a summary, although it doesn't have the full arguments, I recommend reading a few of the replies below glass's summary, mainly dienomites & mine since they provide solutions for the problems
 
DarkGrath said:
Alright, so, I can't promise anything. I've been busy, and will probably continue to be busy for a while. And with how long this thread has seemingly gone on for, I really have no guarantee I'd be able to go through all of the discussion so far without a really good and concise summary from both sides.

However, I'll try to review all of this and give a response when I can, since I can see that help is needed.
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.
 
Sevil Natas said:
here's a summary, although it doesn't have the full arguments, I recommend reading a few of the replies below glass's summary, mainly dienomites & mine since they provide solutions for the problems
Click to expand...
Alright, I've taken a look through the summary and the provided sources.

On the topic of Higher Dimensional Existence, I'm inclined to agree with its inclusion. Given the concerns, I think it should be thoroughly checked that the translation is accurate; but in the event that it is, the source is fairly straightforward about it. Furthermore, I don't exactly see why Dante being able to wield and sell his Devil Arms makes for a contradiction. The idea that a being with a higher dimensional soul could turn itself into a physical weapon isn't totally outside the realm of possibility with the way it is depicted in the series. Is it a bit weird, so to speak, that someone with a 9th dimensional soul can give Dante their soul and make it into a weapon? Yes, it is. But I'm mentally tripping over my own feet trying to give an exact reason why it'd be impossible, so I can't say I'm against it.

As for High Godly regen, I'm a bit confused by the reasoning. I don't see anything about the justification that seems more noteworthy than Mid-Godly? Is there something I'm missing?

Also, unnecessary and overly extrapolative assumptions are being made. The lore source from PoC is pretty good on it's own, and probably enough to justify some form of Mid-Godly (again, assuming it has all been translated correctly). But the series never explains how Vergil came back to life after dying as Nelo Angelo, nor does it explain how Mundus came back after being destroyed prior to the game's events. I get the impression this is probably just meant as supporting evidence, so I won't go on about it for too long, but the fact that we have no idea how they came back after death gives us no room to extrapolate how they did it for the sake of granting abilities.

Currently, I'd say I agree with HDE, but disagree with High-Godly Regen. I would be fine with Mid-Godly regen, provided it doesn't contradict other feats/statements in the series.
 
DarkGrath said:
As for High Godly regen, I'm a bit confused by the reasoning. I don't see anything about the justification that seems more noteworthy than Mid-Godly? Is there something I'm missing?
Click to expand...
well if we take what the statement says demons can regenerate from physical, soul & name destruction. names being the concept of the demons which is in the soul. so the statement says demons can regenerate from complete conceptual destruction and that would be high-godly afaik

also they already have mid-godly, so giving them that would be redundant :v
 
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Sevil Natas said:
well if we take what the statement says demons can regenerate from physical, soul & name destruction. names being the concept of the demons which is in the soul. so the statement says demons can regenerate from complete conceptual destruction and that would be high-godly afaik

also they already have mid-godly, so giving them that would be redundant :v
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I see. After reviewing the regeneration standards, I believe regeneration from conceptual erasure is indeed High-Godly, though I'd like at least one other staff member to confirm that point.

So, yes, that makes sense to me.
 
I have seen people are confused on why we proposed High-Godly here among other stuff so I wanted to give a quick explanation about everything and how is presented in verse:

First of all Names

A Demon's name is something special, more important than other verses. We are told that To them a name is "truth"... more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance, like heirs to a family they model themselves after the meaning of the name but this is only from the research Arkham has gathered, in reality the name and its significance is much more complex and deeper than that.

In reality the power of a name is much more, from the moment demons come into existence the names are the most sacred thing to them, they not only represent power but also the very concept of their own existence, basic principles that predate the creation of even the creation of the demon world itself.

These names and its importance goes beyond the scope of the demon world and you shall see why...

A Demon's soul

As you probably saw in the scan above, the name which is the most sacred thing for a demon as it is their very concept is nothing but a part of their souls. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

But there is more to the souls.

Souls are "objects" that hold many mysteries that neither Humans or Demons understand but that every soul has. The soul as we know now thanks to Peak of Combat is a basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. But that's not all as it contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.

This goes in line with what Arkham told us, if you recall, as the name (which demons mold themselves after) is nothing but just a part of the souls demons have.

In short a soul in Devil May Cry contains every aspect of existence for Demons, from minds to information and even their concept.

High Godly regeneration?

As for why we proposed this? With PoC info dumb we got another interesting data about demons.

They are creatures that have existed since before the creation of the human world, spawned by the primordial chaos that preceded reality and formed by the demon world. All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest.

Demons are basically being whose existences predate even the basic principles of the demon world and as such they also predate the human world (which is our world) and all but the weakest of them can continue fighting even if they lose everything, body, mind, soul and name (concept), they will come back and continue their eternal fight.

This description is pretty much what we use as High-Godly currently since they can come back from the destruction of all their existence including their very concept.


Tier 1 souls?

As I explained above souls are not only stated to be a 9D object but they also come and go from a higher dimension, a higher dimension that is beyond the scope of the demon world as their name already predates even its more basic principles. This higher dimension most likely being the primordial chaos that spawned them, mind you this primordial chaos and the demon world aren't the same at least until poc goes against me

Just for clarification, the Demon World is an infinite sized place that dwarfs the existence of the Human World, with the latter being described as just a small ray of light that came into existence within the endless darkness. With names and soul by default being beyond it in a higher dimension, I think it qualifies for Tier 1 hax.
 
To be fair I don't recall Endless being the same as "Infinite." if I recall correctly the wiki makes a difference between the two hence why Dragon Balls World of Void getting downgraded. But within the same token, most manga have shit tier translations, so if you could, maybe post the Raw scans instead?
 
LordGinSama said:
To be fair I don't recall Endless being the same as "Infinite." if I recall correctly the wiki makes a difference between the two hence why Dragon Balls World of Void getting downgraded.
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Not true. The "endless" translation was inaccurate in the case of Dragon Ball's World of Void, it actually meant "eternal". Hence the downgrade.

Ultima said that with enough context, "endless" can indeed qualify for infinite, as was deemed in a CRT for God of War's Yggdrasil having "endless" possibilities and thus it qualifying for 2-A.

LordGinSama said:
But within the same token, most manga have shit tier translations, so if you could, maybe post the Raw scans instead?
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They are in the DMC cosmology blogs AFAIK, the Raws were translated and they truly mean infinite and not eternal.
 
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LordGinSama said:
Should be completely fine then, just make sure the profiles actually reflect that.
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They already do, the Raws were translated by our members first (Back when Shiroyasha and TISSG7Redgrave were heavily active) when the Tier 3/2 upgrades went through years back and then they were double checked alongside the Devil's Lair/Divinity Statue's translations, which gave near-identical and sometimes even identical translations to what we got here.

Unfortunately the old Translation forums got nuked when the forum move happened but the Devil's Lair/Divinity Statue translations themselves have remained largely unchanged and accurate for the most part.
 
Anyway, that's enough derailing. Back to the normal HDE and High-Godly regen part.
 
Pretty sure LordGriffin has been neutral since the beginning so I doubt he'd want to respond here.

Ultima and Elizhaa already voiced their agreements. Moritzva agreed with regen based on Dienomite's stuff and disagreed with 9-D HDE.

Confluctor disagrees with regen but thinks the 9-D HDE is legit (Since it's not AP to begin with)

Damage, Crabwhale, Colonel Krukov and Starter_Pack pulled out, they don't want to explore this.
 
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Deadguy said:
Also sir ovens and DDM have already given their inputs in this thread and damage said he doesn't want to participate here
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Sir Ovens only gave his opinion for the 1-C AP stuff, which was already bunk since we weren't discussing that, HDE has nothing to do with AP here, and he agreed with Glass's disagreement on the High-Godly regen.
 
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Okay. If we get no more staff input here, it seems like HDE has been accepted at least. I would still prefer stronger and less ambiguous evidence for High-Godly Regeneration though.
 
Can you link to the evidence screencapture for High-Godly Regeneration again please?
 
Okay, so mainly these screencaptures then?





I suppose that seems better than what I recalled. I am neutral then. Unless there are any serious staff complains, you can probably apply this.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, so mainly these screencaptures then?





I suppose that seems better than what I recalled. I am neutral then. Unless there are any serious staff complains, you can probably apply this.
Click to expand...

These were the screencaptures we were using all along.

The first screencapture BTW, is actually also in the official canon of DMC itself, namely the DMC3 prequel manga, in the form of the whole "Name is power" thing.
 
Okay. Unless other staff members have serious complaints, you can probably apply this then.
 
Finally this is over

Tho just to summarize every vote so far

Agree:klol,crimson,elizhaa,Ultima,darkgrath,DDM,confluctor(HDE),ant(HDE)

Neutral:moritzva(high godly regen tho is leaning towards agreement),lordgriffin, ant(high godly regen)

Disagree:glass,ovens(regen stuff only for now because he doesn't know that the proposal for AP have changed to range),confluctor(high godly regen),mortzva(HDE)

So yea the majority agrees with the proposal so it's fine applying it now
 
If that many staff members disagree, it is not at all certain to apply this yet. My apologies.
 
The evidence for High Godly is insufficient but there is more anti feats than feats. In any case, if no such anti feats existed, those statements will grant mid godly at best. I don't see anything on high godly level from it yet.


As for HDE Souls, I did say its fine as long as the Cosmology is that high and dimensionality of characters is explained well.
 
Confluctor said:
The evidence for High Godly is insufficient but there is more anti feats than feats. In any case, if no such anti feats existed, those statements will grant mid godly at best. I don't see anything on high godly level from it yet.
Click to expand...
Redundant because canonically and normally speaking DMC Demons can regenerate from just their soul remaining when nothing else is left. Their souls are conceptual. Which was accepted in this CRT.

Regenerating from a single concept with nothing else remaining is usually Mid-Godly.
 
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