When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[Vexzito]

You are starting with the assumption that multiple ladders is a well established thing and isn't just some shaky headcanon assumed based on minimal evidence.

I wasn't asserting the Umineko cosmology literally works like this. It was an analogy for the statement used not necessarily meaning a single ladder, hence I tried to get that dude to explain the context of it being a single ladder.

Though, I don't know why certain people think asking for context is arguing for a tier.

 

[Darksmash]

I wasn't asserting the Umineko cosmology literally works like this. It was an analogy for the statement used not necessarily meaning a single ladder, hence I tried to get that dude to explain the context of it being a single ladder.

Taking an argument apart in a vacuum isn't really helpful. You have to also consider what exactly the argument is countering and what are the assumptions it builds upon.

Anyway, do you still have any issues with it?

 

[Laminitus]

I want to correct about few stuff right here.

1. The hierarchy is not infinite, lambdadelta said it's infinite but that's just her thought, and not an factual statement.
Lambdadelta's statement got debunked by asumu/piece in last note.
She literally said the hierarchy has end point, which mean the hierarchy is just 1-B.

2. How does being a great witch give High 1-B in tier? Hanyuu furude is a great witch, yet she's just 6th dimensional being.
Great witch is just Higher rank witch than the speaker.

3. The creator was explained as Omnipotent and omniscient who created everything and completely boundless from all notion of restriction <- it was explained in original japanese version, idk why in english version they change some of the statement. (I play the raw version and have the scan, i can send it later)

 

[Tarang123]

1. The hierarchy is not infinite, lambdadelta said it's infinite but that's just her thought, and not an factual statement.
Lambdadelta's statement got debunked by asumu/piece in last note.
She literally said the hierarchy has end point, which mean the hierarchy is just 1-B.

If the hierarchy's endpoint is the creator, then I'm not sure if this is the best argument

2. How does being a great witch give High 1-B in tier? Hanyuu furude is a great witch, yet she's just 6th dimensional being.
Great witch is just Higher rank witch than the speaker.

Scans for the 6D stuff? Cause even regular witches are 1B, so this doesn't make much sense.

3. The creator was explained as Omnipotent and omniscient who created everything and completely boundless from all notion of restriction <- it was explained in original japanese version, idk why in english version they change some of the statement. (I play the raw version and have the scan, i can send it later)

I mean, it doesn't really change much seeing as Omnipotence doesn't mean that much on the wiki

 

[Lormac_CC]

She literally said the hierarchy has end point, which mean the hierarchy is just 1-B

Scan for thIs, Lambdadelta's statement was Maybe our world like going down an Infinite ladder

How does being a great witch give High 1-B in tier? Hanyuu furude is a great witch, yet she's just 6th dimensional being.
Great witch is just Higher rank witch than the speaker.

Scan

The creator was explained as Omnipotent and omniscient who created everything and completely boundless from all notion of restriction <- it was explained in original japanese version, idk why in english version they change some of the statement. (I play the raw version and have the scan, i can send it later)

Doesn't really change much

 

[Laminitus]

If the hierarchy's endpoint is the creator, then I'm not sure if this is the best argument

What do you mean thats not the best argument? I just pointing out that the hierarchy can't be infinite becuase it has end point.
Infinite should be never end.

Scans for the 6D stuff? Cause even regular witches are 1B, so this doesn't make much sense.

I will send it later, im still at work right now.

I mean, it doesn't really change much seeing as Omnipotence doesn't mean that much on the wiki

Well, i just pointing out that the original japanese version talking about singular creator who is omnipotent and creator of everything.
While the english version talking about multiple creators.

I think we should follow the original japanese version than the english version.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What do you mean thats not the best argument? I just pointing out that the hierarchy can't be infinite becuase it has end point.
Infinite should be never end.

We kinda use infinite as a set for everything.

I will send it later, im still at work right now.

Ik which scan you are referring to, but it is her human domain manifestation.

Well, i just pointing out that the original japanese version talking about singular creator who is omnipotent and creator of everything.
While the english version talking about multiple creators.
I think we should follow the original japanese version than the english version.

I already proved how the japanese also was about several Creators. Did you read the OP?

 

[Laminitus]

We kinda use infinite as a set for everything.

In this case is not about infinite set, its about the context of statement itself.
When lambdadelta stated about infinite ladder, she's not even sure about her own statement. "Maybe our world like going down an infinite ladder"
That's just her assumtion which got debunked by asumu/piece in last note.
"My master reached that peak, then realize that was not a place to go for those with will and then returned"

featherine found the Highest point of the ladder which lead to the creator domain.

Sooo the hierarchy has end point/ not infinite.

Ik which scan you are referring to, but it is her human domain manifestation.

No, thats from her database which stated she come from beyond 5th dimension.

I already proved how the japanese also was about several Creators. Did you read the OP?

I do, but i think you wrong at some point.
There are 2 kind of creators.
1. The original creator who created everything.
2. Creator witches.

Creator witches are not the creator, they are creators but not the one who created all of existance.

 

[Darksmash]

1. The hierarchy is not infinite, lambdadelta said it's infinite but that's just her thought, and not an factual statement.
Lambdadelta's statement got debunked by asumu/piece in last note.
She literally said the hierarchy has end point, which mean the hierarchy is just 1-B.

I agree with this. But the thing is, this website is extremely lax with the usage of infinity. Things like infinity having an endpoint isn't seen as a contradiction here, otherwise it would initiate mass downgrades for a lot of other verses. Hence for the sake of fairness this shouldn't be used as a counter argument.

2. How does being a great witch give High 1-B in tier? Hanyuu furude is a great witch, yet she's just 6th dimensional being.
Great witch is just Higher rank witch than the speaker.

I also agree here. Arbitrary terms like "great witch" don't really provide any concrete evidence for anything at all and idk why we give such arguments a pass just because they are being used for Umineko. Wouldn't work for several other verses.

 

[Delta333]

Things like infinity having an endpoint isn't seen as a contradiction here, otherwise it would initiate mass downgrades for a lot of other verses.

Two wrongs don't make a right, why does that not mean other verses should be downgraded as well?

 

[Teezar]

In this case is not about infinite set, its about the context of statement itself.
When lambdadelta stated about infinite ladder, she's not even sure about her own statement. "Maybe our world like going down an infinite ladder"
That's just her assumtion which got debunked by asumu/piece in last note.
"My master reached that peak, then realize that was not a place to go for those with will and then returned"

featherine found the Highest point of the ladder which lead to the creator domain.

Sooo the hierarchy has end point/ not infinite.

No, thats from her database which stated she come from beyond 5th dimension.

I do, but i think you wrong at some point.
There are 2 kind of creators.
1. The original creator who created everything.
2. Creator witches.

Creator witches are not the creator, they are creators but not the one who created all of existance.

This literally makes sense but doesn't infinite have an end?I thought only uncountable infinite didn't have an end.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Two wrongs don't make a right, why does that not mean other verses should be downgraded as well?

I haven't seen any verse like that on the wiki. Verses I Know are High 1-B are Infinite or endless

 

[Darksmash]

Two wrongs don't make a right, why does that not mean other verses should be downgraded as well?

The amount of downgrades that would initiate is terrifying. Best to just ignore it and accept it as consensus. You can't fix everything on this wiki.

 

[Darksmash]

I haven't seen any verse like that on the wiki. Verses I Know are High 1-B are Infinite or endless

Almost all verses I know with infinite hierarchies have some kind of "top" to them, with said top being reachable through the hierarchy. SCP, Umineko, I/O, Lovecraft, possibly Dark Tower etc

 

[Odinson]

Two wrongs don't make a right, why does that not mean other verses should be downgraded as well?

Well it's not like everything on this wiki is PERFECT.

 

[LoliNeverforlife]

Two wrongs don't make a right, why does that not mean other verses should be downgraded as well?

Pretty much a big part of the wiki.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Almost all verses I know with infinite hierarchies have some kind of "top" to them, with said top being reachable through the hierarchy. SCP, Umineko, I/O, Lovecraft, possibly Dark Tower etc

Alright agree with this

 

[QuasiYuri]

I do, but i think you wrong at some point.
There are 2 kind of creators.
1. The original creator who created everything.
2. Creator witches.

Creator witches are not the creator, they are creators but not the one who created all of existance.

There's never been any differentation on that subject. The only proof of an "original The Creator" is a mistranslation of a line in Lambda Memoirs.

Unless you can debunk both the japanese, context, and Ryushiki07 own words; there is no singular "The Creator" except in some guys' headcanon.

I'm starting to seriously be tired of people who consider this kinda stuff to rule over the work itself.

 

[Delta333]

You can't fix everything on this wiki.

Well it's not like everything on this wiki is PERFECT.

I mean we should still index as accurately as possible right...

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with this. But the thing is, this website is extremely lax with the usage of infinity. Things like infinity having an endpoint isn't seen as a contradiction here, otherwise it would initiate mass downgrades for a lot of other verses. Hence for the sake of fairness this shouldn't be used as a counter argument.

Here it is more because infinity is a set the moment you apply it to a structure (at least in fiction).
Unless it is continuously stretching or growing.

 

[Laminitus]

Well i play both the original japanese version and english version.
Im pretty sure the original one stated about the creator who is the one who created everything which does not exist in english version.

In the interview, ryukishi also stated about featherine being the closest thing to a god but not the god itself.

He also stated there are multiple writers/creators like featherine but they are not the God who began all of existance.

 

[Darksmash]

In the interview, ryukishi also stated about featherine being the closest thing to a god but not the god itself.

He also stated there are multiple writers/creators like featherine but they are not the God who began all of existance.

Can you post those interview statements???
Because that's extremely important if true

 

[Laminitus]

Can you post those interview statements???
Because that's extremely important if true

Sure

"R07: That’s one way to look at it. Featherine is the closest thing to a god in that world, the world’s guardian. So there’s no doubt that she’s the strongest character in the story. At the same time, it’s pretty embarrassing. I made myself appear in my work and wrote “I’m super strong~!” (laughs) Isn’t it like a fantasy novel with the author himself as the strongest hero?"

"R07: In the Episode 6 tips, the reason why Featherine is “living and dying” is because when she was a piece, she knew that she was a character who was being written by someone else, and she didn’t doubt that it was her free will. She died because she realized it was a thing that was being done. But she came back as a writer herself. And without shame or prejudice, she gained true free will by drawing herself in her own work. She may be in a world of relay comics now. Maybe she exists in a world where she writes her own characters, but the rest of her work is written by multiple writers."

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well i play both the original japanese version and english version.
Im pretty sure the original one stated about the creator who is the one who created everything which does not exist in english version.

I put the jap in the OP and it never says such a thing.

In the interview, ryukishi also stated about featherine being the closest thing to a god but not the god itself.

That's the guy asking a question who formulated it this way. Ryushiki07's answers clearly says she's a Creator and match everything made in-verse.

He also stated there are multiple writers/creators like featherine but they are not the God who began all of existance.

There are several Creators yes. Your idea of a single one who created existence is still a headcanon.

 

[Darksmash]

"R07: That’s one way to look at it. Featherine is the closest thing to a god in that world, the world’s guardian.

The keyword is "that". It says she is the closest thing to God in that world. That is, her avatar is the closest being to the creator(same thing as an author avatar being the closest thing to an author).

 

[Tarang123]

What do you mean thats not the best argument? I just pointing out that the hierarchy can't be infinite becuase it has end point.
Infinite should be never end.

Doesn’t work for something that transcends said hierarchy

 

[Antvasima]

Removed Santa and Creator from the verse pages, both need to be deleted.

I have deleted the two pages, but these other pages need to have their links to them updated:

Pages that link to "Santa Claus (Umineko no Naku Koro Ni)" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pages that link to "The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni)" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

I also edited the cosmology page n the verse one, but Truths are still locked so can't do anything 'bout them rn.

I will unlock the page. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Antvasima]

@QuasiYuri @Ultima_Reality

Have you reached any new conclusions here?

 

[LoliNeverforlife]

@QuasiYuri @Ultima_Reality

Have you reached any new conclusions here?

I think they are still waiting for Ultima to arrive.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Tarang123]

I think they are still waiting for Ultima to arrive.

They’re still disagreeing when it comes to the truths scaling

 

[Darksmash]

I have deleted the two pages,

Can you also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change?

 

[Laminitus]

I think we should remove High 1-B rating, being a great witch to attain that tier does not make sense.
As i said before, the great witch is just higher rank witch than the speaker.

And the infinite hierarchy does not have solid explanation beside lambdadelta's assumption which got contradiction.

I agree with 1-B stuff but totally dissagree with high 1-B stuff

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think we should remove High 1-B rating, being a great witch to attain that tier does not make sense.
As i said before, the great witch is just higher rank witch than the speaker.

And the infinite hierarchy does not have solid explanation beside lambdadelta's assumption which got contradiction.

I agree with 1-B stuff but totally dissagree with high 1-B stuff

We have no Great Witch profiles.

Also infinity having an end isn't enough to disprove it since we litteraly have tiers above High 3-A, 2-A or High 1-B.

 

[Laminitus]

Also infinity having an end isn't enough to disprove it since we litteraly have tiers above High 3-A, 2-A or High 1-B.

What do you mean by having tier above High 1-B disprove the High 1-B contradiction?
1-A can still be attained without having High 1-B cosmology.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What do you mean by having tier above High 1-B disprove the High 1-B contradiction?
1-A can still be attained without having High 1-B cosmology.

Basically according to you infinity having an end here is supposed to debunk stuff.

If it was the case nobody would be above High 3-A.

 

[Laminitus]

Basically according to you infinity having an end here is supposed to debunk stuff.

If it was the case nobody would be above High 3-A.

That's literally different case with this one.
Infinite 3D space is nothing compared to 4D which mean the 3D space with infinite size can be surpassed by Higher dimensional structure.

This is not about size, but number of said hierarchy.

 

[Lormac_CC]

If it was the case nobody would be above High 3-A.

This is a different case tho

 

[Lormac_CC]

Let's just leave the infinity stuff. That's the wiki problem.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Also infinity having an end isn't enough to disprove it

Depends on context. If the end can be reached by climbing the hierarchy, then that Hierarchy is 1-B. If the end is something beyond the Hierarchy, then that would be 1-A not high 1-B because the hierarchy will never reach the end no matter how many layers are added