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Yeah but not uncountable infinite dimensions ajlnd no verse has such.
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When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
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Yes, you can.
Lormac_CC
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Truth is still been discussed
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There have been multiple Umineko VS threads where they used the new ratings.
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Translate Feliz to English hahah.
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Darksmash
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No
We are waiting for Ultima's response
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Truths scale to Oblivion because regardless of what height you are on the Ladder, truths apply and can erase you, not because it sends you there. Oblivion being at the absolute depths of the ladder whereas even someone who reaches the absolute infinity of it can still be erased by Truths, meaning its potency is at the scale of the entire ladder itself as well as its depths. (With the exception being The Creators Domain as Creators are free from all restrictions to begin with including Oblivion).
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No matter how strong you are, someone killing you sends you to the Afterlife. Doesn't mean I have Afterlife-level superpowers.
Oblivion is just non-existence, or non-life if you prefer. You're born from it, and you return to it once you die.
So you didn't give anything making the Truths scale here. Truths that affect the highest dudes on the ladder are used by characters on the same level. No reason to do baseless backscaling here. It would be no different from saying that Roshi and Goku are both Low 2-C because they both have kamehameha.
Also Creators are flat out said by Featherine to still be subject to dying from boredom, meaning they litteraly go back to Oblivion by times.
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That's not the point lol. Their power is dependent on the layer and perspective they reach, therefore being able to be killed by these abilities at any height and layer means Truths are inherently superior if not equal to all of the infinite layers of the ladder. You're misinterpreting what Truths are. It's not 'afterlife-level' it's 'Oh you transcended to this layer above all others? Cool, get truthed gg'. When they're erased they 'float down' to the depths but they still are required to be erased so your logic doesn't apply.
Born from it?
And they work that way because Truths don't scale to the characters themselves, they're a concept that exists throughout all layers and the ladder, even including the Human Domain. The Meta-World is a space where thoughts and will can literally be conceptualized into physical attacks. Truths themselves are just verbal arguments given shape. They don't particularly have any AP based on what height you are, it's not relevant that way. If a Red was used on a lower layer that had meaning to a higher layer it'd still have effect ( All future concepts are denied if Dlanor gives out a verdict regardless of what layer she's on ).
It's never stated they go back to Oblivion, Creators are also stated to be freed from life and death to begin with so which interpretation are we going with here?
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They never were considered nor remotely implied to be superior to the entire setting either.
Truths being such a thing is even more ridiculous when you take into account that it somehow means Lambdadelta thought that launching herself would be better than using a hax that supposedly would have one shotted Featherine. Same with like 90% of the story's conflicts.
People still need to be killed to go to the Afterlife. They also still need to be erased to go into non-existence. Doesn't mean everyone with the ability to kill or EE is going to have hax on the level of their verse's non-existence.
Yeah, it's said in Higurashi iirc.
Guess we should make litteral every abilities in Umineko on the level of a Creator then, since they all are concepts. It is recognized as an ability/weapon and Battler litteraly wasn't able to use it before it was granted by someone.
Also if what you said regarding Red having effect no matter the layer, then Kyrie and Rudolf didn't kill anyone since they were claimed to be dead in red in a previous episode.
Also the truth given by Virgila to Battler was overruled; Dlanor's verdict was litteraly put into question and countered after it etc...
The work doesn't support your theory at all so far. I would even say that should we take your idea as true, then it would mean people lied with the Red Truth, something which actually is impossible.
Should we go with the vague statement that can mean more than one thing or take the litteral Creator who knows stuff as the right one?
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Because that's not the point of what truths are. I also never stated they were superior to the setting and if I did, it must've been a poor choice of words because they aren't. They scale to the entire setting bar the Creators. I mean I could go the easy route and say PIS for Lambda/Feathy but if you're bringing up 90% of the stories conflicts then I think you have misconceptions on a lot of the stories conflicts in the first place and why it wouldn't have been proper. There's also the fact that the Red Truth can't erase the existence of Witches entirely and using it on someone like Featherine would be pointless. Her memory device however was a better chance of actually disorientating her (which didn't work out, but using a Truth wouldn't get the outcome Lambda desired here especially)
I think you don't understand that I'm not saying the Truths scale to non-existence, but to the entire Ladder itself as all concepts in the Ladder abide by the Red Truth. The argument you're fighting isn't 'Truths can send people to Oblivion = Truths are oblivion'. It's 'All concepts on the Ladder abide by Truths', which you haven't really debunked.
Are you referring to /this/ scene?
Nah, don't pull fallacies on me man. That's not what I'm saying. Truths would be 1-B/High 1-B based on whatever ratings you have Umineko's Ladder on here. I never said it'd scale with The Creators and I specified the Domain is exempt from it in the first place as it's the pinnacle of the ladder and beyond everything.
Your usage of Battler here is poor. Anyone can use the Red so long as they wish for it, but only Witches can confirm things in Red without needing proof. Battler is able to use the Red whenever he wants but it won't make it valid unless he's the Game Master or has proof substantiating it. So you might wanna try that again.
So you made several mistakes here. 1: Different Reds apply for different games when it comes to Gameboards. That's like saying a Red used to describe an event in Game 1 should also be used for Game 2, but that's not true because they're two different games. (Knox/Van Dine being an exempt as they are Rules in of themselves or specific things like 'Kinzo is always dead on x day') This is a false equivalency of my proof. It isn't 'has effect no matter what game'. It's 'LAYER'. The Red isn't so simply as to apply to just one thing, it has multiple uses.
2: That's not what I was referring too, and the verdict itself wasn't official just yet. It was filed, but Dlanor didn't exactly have the chance to make it official. ( I should also add it was overruled BECAUSE it violated Knox, not because of anything you're claiming. ) I was referring to the TIPS which has more power over any scene you'd care to put out which clearly states 'all future concepts are denied'. If you need a refresher, look here :
Because denials of concepts conform to verdict procedures dictated by the Great Court, all future concepts that disobey them will be denied immediately.
Furthermore, if you try to use the argument of Heaven being on a Higher Layer = affecting all lower, you can't assume how high or how low it is as it's never stated, and yet all future concepts will abide by its regardless.
I'd argue it doesn't support yours but we'd get nowhere like that. I'm not here to change your mind, I'm here for everyone else to assess my Truth.
Please explain to me the vagueness of this statement. Witches themselves have the power to become Creators whenever they wish for it so I don't see how that invalidates Lambdadelta. As stated by Ryukishi, Witches are beings who become aware they're products of a Creator/Writer and if they choose too they can take up the position of the Author themselves (Creator.) So obviously they'd also know about that position (Especially Lambdadelta who is a Witch of the Senate to begin with)
“A witch is someone who has begun to realize that they are someone else's creation, and yet they are in a position to view different creations, and the higher they go, the closer they get to the position of the author, and when they reach the realm of the author, they are finished.”
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Yeah, but we know they can die, so…
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Featherine also said humans can die if they stop thinking, but I'm not dead just because I've stopped thinking, am I? The statement itself is a double meaning.
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Pretty sure it’s quite literal for witches who can die due to boredom
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So then we're to assume since she included humans, people literally die by not thinking?
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Witches are humans?So then we're to assume since she included humans, people literally die by not thinking?
anyway, that’s kinda derailing from the topic.
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Witches are humans?
anyway, that’s kinda derailing from the topic.
According to Featherine yes.
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"Logically, that is true. It's the same for humans, witches, and even gods. If they lose interest and concern, they can die at any time. And if they regain that interest, they can revive at any time."
According to Featherine yes.
Interesting. Still, we know that it’s especially bad for witches to get bored, and Maria would become the greatest creator cause she wouldn’t get bored.
Darksmash
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Why are you assuming truths have the same potency when enacted on any layer? Would a gun on my current plane of existence have the same potency as a gun on a plane of existence that sees me as fiction?
Meta world has 2 kinds of deaths. What witches refer to death by boredom tends to mean "losing interest"
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so where should truths scale? Would they scale based on feats the character has performed with the truths?
Yeah, just checked again, and I forgot about that.
Darksmash
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Yes. They are literally just hax and would scale to the stats of the characters using them. Though the truths on the gameboard will likely scale to the territory lord's AP
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Seems to make sense to me, but I think scans would obviously need to be used on the page
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Truths aren't a gun and that's a false equivalency to what Truths represent, so your analogy fails here. I explained my arguments above so that's up to you to read them and not up to me to repost them.
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They'd scale to everything below The Creators I:E the Ladder.
Lormac_CC
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So truth doesn't scale to Oblivion but to the entire Hierarchy
Darksmash
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I skimmed through most of the stuff so I got a general gist of it. That's not a false equivalency. You can literally dismiss any analogies by that logic by simply saying "X is not Y" and ignoring what an analogy even is. Truths are not the facts themselves, they are the facts given a weaponized form. Said weapons would have potency scaling to whatever layer they originate on.
You might want to facilitate this with actual proof, as this is headcanon that isn't supported by anything from the verse.
They can ascend if they choose to do so, but that doesn't mean they are aware of how stuff works if they haven't ascended to that level. The very fact Lambda clearly states that everything she said was her "pet view" makes it clear
Darksmash
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I would say it's time to firstly stop pretending Oblivion is at the top. It doesn't really work with the overall context of the Cosmology. Voyagers can casually access it and travel through it even though they are nowhere near the top. This is such a retardedly straightforward contradiction that it absolutely amazes me we are still pretending Oblivion being at the top is feasible. I am done with this BS
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I accept your concession.
So I suggest we treat the Truths as being 1-B/High 1-B, whichever the pinnacle of the ladder is bar the Creators. As for what you'd put on the profile, I suppose you could just put a note in the truths for their potency or add it as (Truths are a concept that affect the entire ladder bar the Creators and are x potency) for a rough draft.
I partially agree to this. It's not the top, it's at the absolute bottom, though it's still sort of external to the ladder in an abstract form though it's dwarfed by the Creators themselves. Which is why I don't scale the Truths to it specifically but the Ladder.
We know Reds recognized by the Court of Heaven are practically immutable laws throughout the entire ladder, thus they have the potency to affect the entire ladder. It's not a headcanon, you're just denying literal proof I've facilitated for your own bias, so I'm not gonna continue to argue this with you. You need to give proof of it being the opposite now instead of calling mine a 'headcanon'.
Also, since you skimmed it, why should I take anything you say seriously now? It's like saying I understand x video game but I skipped most of the cutscenes. I don't need to take any statement you give much thought after this admittance of failure to respect my arguments.
Further more, your analogy is false because of the proof I've already stated that Truths can affect all layers if given recognition. Just like how a Human can use a Red if recognized by a Witch.
So I'll await any proof that actually goes against mine instead of baseless 'headcanon headcanon headcanon' talk. Honestly not a good thing to have in your vocabulary if you're doing debates.
Okay, then where does Lambdadelta get this information to begin with? If they aren't aware of how stuff works on that level, how do they even know what happens on it? That's a logic loop hole you'll need to thread.
If they do not know how stuff works up there because they haven't seen it, how can Witches even acknowledge what happens in that domain to begin with? Because they're Witches and because they always have that opportunity to pick up the pen, they're aware of the dangers. It's quite literally also stated in the TIPS itself that Voyagers fear becoming a Creator BECAUSE of these reasons to begin with. Featherine is considered to be a big deal BECAUSE she's the only known Witch to have written herself back into her own story after becoming a Creator.
If you ask me, I think you're trying to devalue her words as legitimate for whatever reason I can't fathom. Lambdadelta who is a Witch of the Senate who literally governs the entire Witches Domain should most certainly have info on what that domain is like.
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No Red was used in that instance. The Red Key doesn't always have the red properties unless a Red is weaved.
Well given that none of my arguments were debunked besides just using the word headcanon I don't see why, but I said my part as it is.
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Truths scale to the whole Ladder (bar the Creators as it transcends the Witches domain and its concepts) because they have the potential to affect the whole ladder depending on the level of recognition. Besides the fact that it's literally a concept that exists on every single layer, even including the Human Domain itself, if an official verdict is given all future concepts that go against it are denied which would mean not only future concepts on that initial layer but the entire Ladder itself. It wouldn't make sense for it to be officially recognized and then you could just go to say the city of books and say 'no actually it didn't happen' and go against the whole Great court. At that point the usage of 'all future concepts' becomes pointless.
Because denials of concepts conform to verdict procedures dictated by the Great Court, all future concepts that disobey them will be denied immediately.
Therefore, it scales to the Ladder (bar the creators). This would make them either 1-B or High 1-B since I'm not sure how this wiki interprets Umineko anymore, but it'd be the entire cosmology before the Creators.
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Hmm. It seems too much like an illogical NLF to me, if the truths of a far lower level being can affect realms that perceive said being as fiction. It would require extremely good evidence to pass.
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