Sonic Immeasurable Speed Debates Continued

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Why do these debates happen while I am asleep??
Well anyway as everyone has iterated firmly and multiple times, there "are no multiple Solaris' , no brothers , no clones, no illusions , no nothing"
Nothing involving Multiple Selves.

There is only one Solaris period who exists simultaneously throughout past, present and future.....i.e entire time.
He is uncountably infinitely long in the temporal dimension as a consequence.
And this is the most default consequence of given facts, you don't have to make any assumptions whatsoever. You just have to simply undertand the facts as they are provided.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Since nobody's summarised the arguments for Pro-Immeasurable, I'll do so here. Edit: I'll try and make this the least complicated I can.

Why Fighting Solaris Can't Be MFTL+​

His Attacks​

• Solaris' attacks are in every point in time at once, as you can even see Solaris' attacks even when you switch to a character that's within a different time period (i.e. Silver [the future] to Sonic [the present]). Seriously, take a close look when the gameplay switches to Sonic. You can see Solaris' attacks still flying out to where Silver is. This proves Solaris isn't attacking at merely one point in time. He's attacking throughout all of them.
• Solaris' attacks are also shown to be Immeasurable within cutscenes as well, as it lets out an AoE blast upon its very birth. This blast manages to affect Silver's future, as we know it happens right after his story ends because he questions where the Chaos Emeralds that he had went. (Side note: This exact scene also has Eggman state that it exists in the past, present, and future at the same time. It's an egregious assumption to assume it's three randomized points in time rather than the entirety of it. And no, there is not more than one Solaris nor is Solaris somehow duplicating itself during the boss battle. That's never stated and is headcanon.)

Immeasurable Solves Solaris' Physiology​

• This is why Super Sonic had Immeasurable speed to begin with, it solves every problem Solaris brought to the table all at once. It can grant Temporal AoE (which was necessary to defeat Solaris, they said as much) and replicates the benefits of Temporal Omnipresence (which is also necessary to fight a being that exists across all of time). Their past selves may be safe due to Acausality Type 1, but the Super Trio would also somehow need to be capable of not being attacked in the future by Solaris either. They're being attacked by Solaris with attacks that are being launched millions of years in the past and millions of years in the future, and they're seeing it like a normal human would see the present.
• If Immeasurable characters can travel anywhere and anywhen in less than an instant, then they can travel to all of these points in time with no delay. By doing so while rushing towards Solaris in physical space, it would allow them to strike him in every point in time at once (which is what we know happens). There's nothing stopping Super Sonic from doing that since his Immeasurable speed applies to his travel, reaction, and combat speed.
• There's this idea that Solaris can be blitzed by someone with finite speed despite the fact that he can see his opponent’s every action laid out in front of him like an infinitely long movie tape. Apparently, this doesn’t translate to reaction or combat speed? There’s a major problem with that. The fact that Solaris’ past and present movements already translate into the future. Not only does this completely break the speed formula, but it proves that his movements are the same as his perception. If you agree that his perception speed is akin to Immeasurable or Infinite, then you also agree that his movement is the same. Solaris’ entire being is Temporally Omnipresent, not just his eyes, ears and brain. And Sonic can still attack it faster than it can even cross its arms to defend itself. I'm not sure how something like Cosmic Awareness can fill in for that.

Immeasurable Speed Can Be Gained With Less​

• Hypothetical. If Solaris existed in every point in time except for the most distant future and the earliest past, no one would argue against the Super Trio needing Immeasurable speed to dodge Solaris' attacks and blitz it, because they would need to dodge them by travelling to those two points in time in an instant. But Solaris' Temporal Omnipresence makes the hypothetical scenario less impressive, yet it's still Immeasurable speed. Disregarding the feat and placing the Super forms at a finite speed rank because it's, for lack of better wording, "too impressive" is just weird. Especially when Immeasurable speed isn't just one single level. Immeasurables can blitz other Immeasurables in fiction, and Immeasurables can upscale.

The Speed Page Standards​

• From Note 7 on the Speed page, "... They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed." From this, we can gauge that the Super Trio qualifies for Immeasurable Speed through this note. They can all dodge attacks from Solaris, which I've shown above to also retain it's properties of attacking across time. Yet the Super Trio can still effectively react to and dodge attacks.

Nothing Else Works​

• The Super Trio can't have Temporal Omnipresence to directly match Solaris. They're never stated to have direct Temporal Omnipresence of their own, so this is off the table.
• Acausality Type 2 doesn't match, as Sonic is explicitly shown to have a past within Sonic Generations (before it was retconned to be another dimension), and directly works against Shadow and Silver flying to different time periods.
• Temporal AoE alone doesn't cut it. If that was all they had, they would have been murdered the instant they flew out of the rift to fight Solaris. While they would (in theory) be able to deal lasting damage to his core, they would have no way to bypass Solaris’ defenses and reactions to reach that core to begin with.

Avoiding Misconceptions​

Rift Shenanigans​

• To go back to basics, there is no rift that debunks Immeasurable speed. People confuse this for the spatial distortion that allowed all of the main characters to be at one point in time. An intersection of time and space, as stated here. But, as Eggman states, it won't last for long. And just in case somebody tries to say this debunks Immeasurable, the Super Trio leave it to fight Solaris. Just clearing that up.

Solaris Being Immeasurable​

• Just a smaller note, regular users and staff alike have agreed Solaris is Temporally Omnipresent. I've seen a few people miss this within the thread and claim Solaris doesn't fit the bill for a flat Immeasurable rating. Yeah, the story itself says what Solaris is. Everybody knows and agrees with this.

So... Hopefully that clears everything up!

 

[DaReaperMan]

Since nobody's summarised the arguments for Pro-Immeasurable, I'll do so here.

Why Fighting Solaris Can't Be MFTL+​

His Attacks​

• Solaris' attacks are in every point in time at once, as you can even see Solaris' attacks even when you switch to a character that's within a different time period (i.e. Silver [the future] to Sonic [the present]). Seriously, take a close look when the gameplay switches to Sonic. You can see Solaris' attacks still flying out to where Silver is. This proves Solaris isn't attacking at merely one point in time. He's attacking throughout all of them.
• Solaris' attacks are also shown to be Immeasurable within cutscenes as well, as it lets out an AoE blast upon its very birth. This blast manages to affect Silver's future, as we know it happens right after his story ends because he questions where the Chaos Emeralds that he had went. (Side note: This exact scene also has Eggman state that it exists in the past, present, and future at the same time. It's an egregious assumption to assume it's three randomized points in time rather than the entirety of it. And no, there is not more than one Solaris nor is Solaris somehow duplicating itself during the boss battle. That's never stated and is headcanon.)

Immeasurable Solves Solaris' Physiology​

• Time is meaningless to someone with Immeasurable speed, and they can just zip back and forth between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds to simulate Temporal Omnipresence. That's why Super Sonic had immeasurable speed to begin with, it solves every problem Solaris brought to the table all at once. It can grant Temporal AoE (which was necessary to defeat Solaris, they said as much) and replicates the benefits of Temporal Omnipresence (which is also necessary to fight a being that exists across all of time).
• If immeasurable characters can travel anywhere anywhen in less than an instant, then they can travel to all of these points with no delay. By doing so while rushing towards Solaris in physical space, it would allow them to strike him in every point in time at once (which is what we know happens). There's nothing stopping Super Sonic from doing that since his Immeasurable speed applies to his travel, reaction, and combat speed. This is the 4D equivalent of an Infinite speed character flying through the entire volume of the universe at top speed, occupying all of its space as a result and effectively matching a Spatial Omnipresent. There's nothing stopping infinite speed characters from doing that, just like there's nothing stopping an Immeasurable speed character from filling every point in time with their presence to replicate a Temporal Omnipresent.
• There's this idea that Solaris can be blitzed by someone with finite speed despite the fact that he can see his opponent’s every action laid out in front of him like an infinitely long movie tape. Apparently, this doesn’t translate to reaction or combat speed? There’s a major problem with that. The fact that Solaris’ past and present movements already translate into the future. Not only does this completely break the speed formula, but it proves that his movements are the same as his perception. If you agree that his perception speed is akin to Immeasurable or Infinite, then you also agree that his movement is the same. Solaris’ entire being is Temporally Omnipresent, not just his eyes, ears and brain. And Sonic can still attack it faster than it can even cross its arms to defend itself.

Immeasurable Speed Can Be Gained With Less​

• If Solaris existed in every point in time except for the most distant future and the earliest past, no one would argue against the Super Trio needing Immeasurable speed to dodge Solaris' attacks and blitz it, because they would need to dodge them by travelling to those two points in time in an instant. But Solaris' Temporal Omnipresence and the hypothetical scenario is less impressive, yet still Immeasurable speed. Disregarding the feat and placing the Super forms at a finite speed rank because, for lack of better wording, is "too impressive" is just weird. Especially when Immeasurable speed isn't just one single level. Immeasurables can blitz other Immeasurables in fiction, and Immeasurables can upscale.

The Speed Page Standards​

• From Note 7 on the Speed page, "... They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed." From this, we can gauge that the Super Trio qualifies for Immeasurable Speed through this note. They can all dodge attacks from Solaris, which I've shown above to also retain it's properties of attacking across time. Yet the Super Trio can still effectively react to and dodge attacks.

Nothing Else Works​

• The Super Trio can't have Temporal Omnipresence to directly match Solaris. They're never stated to have Temporal Omnipresence of their own, so this is off the table.
• Acausality Type 2 doesn't match, as Sonic is explicitly shown to have a past within Sonic Generations (before it was retconned to be another dimension), and directly works against Shadow and Silver flying to different time periods.
• Temporal AoE alone doesn't cut it. If that was all they had, they would have been murdered the instant they flew out of the rift to fight Solaris. While they would (in theory) be able to deal lasting damage to his core, they would have no way to bypass Solaris’ defenses and reactions to reach that core to begin with.

Avoiding Misconceptions​

Rift Shenanigans​

• To go back to basics, there is no rift that debunks Immeasurable speed. People confuse this for the spatial distortion that allowed all of the main characters to be at one point in time. An intersection of time and space, as stated here. But, as Eggman states, it won't last for long. Just clearing that up.

Solaris Being Immeasurable​

• Just a smaller note, regular users and staff alike have agreed Solaris is Temporally Omnipresent. I've seen a few people miss this within the thread and claim Solaris doesn't fit the bill for a flat Immeasurable rating. Yeah, the story itself says what Solaris is. Everybody knows and agrees with this.

So... Hopefully that clears everything up!

Sounds good, nice breakdown

 

[Bernkastelll]

Since nobody's summarised the arguments for Pro-Immeasurable, I'll do so here. Edit: I'll try and make this the least complicated I can.

Why Fighting Solaris Can't Be MFTL+​

His Attacks​

• Solaris' attacks are in every point in time at once, as you can even see Solaris' attacks even when you switch to a character that's within a different time period (i.e. Silver [the future] to Sonic [the present]). Seriously, take a close look when the gameplay switches to Sonic. You can see Solaris' attacks still flying out to where Silver is. This proves Solaris isn't attacking at merely one point in time. He's attacking throughout all of them.
• Solaris' attacks are also shown to be Immeasurable within cutscenes as well, as it lets out an AoE blast upon its very birth. This blast manages to affect Silver's future, as we know it happens right after his story ends because he questions where the Chaos Emeralds that he had went. (Side note: This exact scene also has Eggman state that it exists in the past, present, and future at the same time. It's an egregious assumption to assume it's three randomized points in time rather than the entirety of it. And no, there is not more than one Solaris nor is Solaris somehow duplicating itself during the boss battle. That's never stated and is headcanon.)

Immeasurable Solves Solaris' Physiology​

• Time is meaningless to someone with Immeasurable speed, and they can just zip back and forth between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds to simulate Temporal Omnipresence. That's why Super Sonic had immeasurable speed to begin with, it solves every problem Solaris brought to the table all at once. It can grant Temporal AoE (which was necessary to defeat Solaris, they said as much) and replicates the benefits of Temporal Omnipresence (which is also necessary to fight a being that exists across all of time). Their past selves may be safe due to Acausality Type 1, but the Super Trio would also somehow need to be capable of not being attacked in the future by Solaris either. Don't mention the rift argument that's used so often, I'll tackle that below.
• If immeasurable characters can travel anywhere anywhen in less than an instant, then they can travel to all of these points with no delay. By doing so while rushing towards Solaris in physical space, it would allow them to strike him in every point in time at once (which is what we know happens). There's nothing stopping Super Sonic from doing that since his Immeasurable speed applies to his travel, reaction, and combat speed. This is the 4D equivalent of an Infinite speed character flying through the entire volume of the universe at top speed, occupying all of its space as a result and effectively matching a Spatial Omnipresent. There's nothing stopping infinite speed characters from doing that, just like there's nothing stopping an Immeasurable speed character from filling every point in time with their presence to replicate a Temporal Omnipresent.
• There's this idea that Solaris can be blitzed by someone with finite speed despite the fact that he can see his opponent’s every action laid out in front of him like an infinitely long movie tape. Apparently, this doesn’t translate to reaction or combat speed? There’s a major problem with that. The fact that Solaris’ past and present movements already translate into the future. Not only does this completely break the speed formula, but it proves that his movements are the same as his perception. If you agree that his perception speed is akin to Immeasurable or Infinite, then you also agree that his movement is the same. Solaris’ entire being is Temporally Omnipresent, not just his eyes, ears and brain. And Sonic can still attack it faster than it can even cross its arms to defend itself.

Immeasurable Speed Can Be Gained With Less​

• If Solaris existed in every point in time except for the most distant future and the earliest past, no one would argue against the Super Trio needing Immeasurable speed to dodge Solaris' attacks and blitz it, because they would need to dodge them by travelling to those two points in time in an instant. But Solaris' Temporal Omnipresence makes the hypothetical scenario less impressive, yet it's still Immeasurable speed. Disregarding the feat and placing the Super forms at a finite speed rank because it's, for lack of better wording, "too impressive" is just weird. Especially when Immeasurable speed isn't just one single level. Immeasurables can blitz other Immeasurables in fiction, and Immeasurables can upscale.

The Speed Page Standards​

• From Note 7 on the Speed page, "... They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed." From this, we can gauge that the Super Trio qualifies for Immeasurable Speed through this note. They can all dodge attacks from Solaris, which I've shown above to also retain it's properties of attacking across time. Yet the Super Trio can still effectively react to and dodge attacks.

Nothing Else Works​

• The Super Trio can't have Temporal Omnipresence to directly match Solaris. They're never stated to have Temporal Omnipresence of their own, so this is off the table.
• Acausality Type 2 doesn't match, as Sonic is explicitly shown to have a past within Sonic Generations (before it was retconned to be another dimension), and directly works against Shadow and Silver flying to different time periods.
• Temporal AoE alone doesn't cut it. If that was all they had, they would have been murdered the instant they flew out of the rift to fight Solaris. While they would (in theory) be able to deal lasting damage to his core, they would have no way to bypass Solaris’ defenses and reactions to reach that core to begin with.

Avoiding Misconceptions​

Rift Shenanigans​

• To go back to basics, there is no rift that debunks Immeasurable speed. People confuse this for the spatial distortion that allowed all of the main characters to be at one point in time. An intersection of time and space, as stated here. But, as Eggman states, it won't last for long. And just in case somebody tries to say this debunks Immeasurable, the Super Trio leave it to fight Solaris. Just clearing that up.

Solaris Being Immeasurable​

• Just a smaller note, regular users and staff alike have agreed Solaris is Temporally Omnipresent. I've seen a few people miss this within the thread and claim Solaris doesn't fit the bill for a flat Immeasurable rating. Yeah, the story itself says what Solaris is. Everybody knows and agrees with this.

So... Hopefully that clears everything up!

This makes a lot of sense, does someone still have a counter argument or nah?

 

[Causalist]

Before someone tries to refute any of this, I need to point out that there's still one basic, yet major question that those in favor of the downgrade haven't answered:

If you don't mind me asking, AKM, could you please explain how a temporally omnipresent being can choose to take action in only 1 specific point in time, while not doing so in other time periods.

They also have yet to agree with each other on the downgrade for non-contradictary reasons, which makes actually applying said downgrade impossible.

 

[sanicspood]

disagree with the downgrade fra

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I do agree that Solaris is omnipresent across all time periods, not three of them. We already went over that over and over again. And there's only one Solaris; he's physically the size of it on a 4-dimensional scale. Thus temporally omnipresent is universally agreed for Solaris. However, I still do not agree with Immeasurable. So Eficiente is incorrect about the 3 time period thing above with the Sonic supporters being correct on that detail.

First of all, being able to "See all time periods simultaneously" can be done with Cosmic Awareness; people do not need Immeasurable speeds to see that. And even if it did, it would only arguably be Immeasurable Perception, not quite speed. Everyone can see a Subsonic object coming for them, but that doesn't always mean we can all move at Subsonic speeds. @DontTalkDT has often discussed the difference between perception and speed. Perception is the ability to see, feel, or hear things faster where as speed is the ability to physically move and react faster. Also, I said Immeasurable perception only as in umbrella term. It's not that they had a reaction time faster than instant, it's just that the periods are just coming to them, or they already had knowledge of the future and are able to prep time. Their eyes, nose, and ears having temporal omnipresence isn't actually proof his perception is Immeasurable, more like that it's the knowledge is inside him from the beginning. So I do not really see how it proves his perception isn't equal to his speed.

Also, looking over some of those scans; they appear to have broken URLs. The YouTube links are fine, but are some of those things supposed to be Discord App screen shots? But yes, those are basically repeating the temporal omnipresence stuff. But I'll need to address the next point. "If they can travel back in time faster than an instant, they can travel to all time periods at the same time as if time is meaningless". That's not quite how Immeasurable speed works, it's more like linear time specifically is meaningless; they need to be Infinite dimensional for time to truly be meaningless in a 100% literal sense. But as for the traveling part, they're still limited to existing in one time periods unless they have temporal presence. It's more like they exist one time period and are 100% nonexistent or there ends up existing two copies of yourselves in other time periods. It's just your present self is currently visiting the past while all your past selves are just in the respective periods and you do not exist in the present for some secondary time period.

As for the blitzing someone; actually just because people can see something coming doesn't meant they don't get blitzed by it. Not to mention, the term "Blitzing" sounds kinda exaggerated. Outpacing perhaps, but not blitzing; blitzing is where the Hedgehogs moved so fast that Solaris physically couldn't react; but the problem is he can sort of fight back against the Hedgehogs so it's not a speed blitz in the literal sense. For the "Immeasurable can be gained with less" argument; that actually is just saying Solaris isn't quite 100% omnipresent, just super present. They need to exist in all periods of at least one timeline to be considered omnipresent, which would make Immeasurable speed harder to believe. But I didn't see the scan that said "He didn't exist in the distant future or distant past". But might be broken URLs. I only saw scans saying he was temporally omnipresent.

Back to the earlier posts, it's already mentioned that dodging attacks with temporal area of effect doesn't require Immeasurable speed. Characters who nuke entire timelines who shook/harmed other characters with temporal AoE wasn't considered Immeasurable attack speed. Those specific details are just Temporal Area of Effect. Kratos isn't Immeasurable for shaking Yggdrasil, Kirinmaru isn't Immeasurable for effecting the Tree of Ages. And I believe plenty of other staff members have brought up many other examples, but almost every single Tier 2 character could be interpreted as having Immeasurable attack speed thus enemies having Immeasurable reaction via outpacing the omnidirectional temporal dimension blast radius

The Time Travel part and rift example I agree with those parts; that was Base Sonic and the like that used them where as the Super Hedgehogs pretty much just flew. But I still see that as simply Time Travel, similar to what AKM Sama says about Pre-Crisis Superman. And he's about to have his Immeasurable speed rating removed.

As for other bullet points Shake laid out, Acausality type 2 was already dismissed. Sonic and the others were not Temporally omnipresent yes; they were limited to 1/3rd of time at most. But they can match Solaris in speed and power yes. "It isn't just temporal effect", well we do agree with temporal area of effect it just the issue comes from it being more than that. I partially agree it should be more than that, but I still do not think Immeasurable speed is the answer. Temporal Area of Effect answers Sonic team being able to hurt Solaris, but it does not answer them dodging temporal Area of Effect attacks. I'm not sure how to interpret those, but I still and others still think that calling it Immeasurable still seems loop hole reliant.

Anyway, I'll try to ping staff members; though some may not be interested. @QuasiYuri @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @Jvando @SamanPatou @LordGriffin1000 @GyroNutz @Planck69 @KingTempest Your input here may be appreciated.

Edit: It's mostly this comment and the OP.

 

[ElixirBlue]

First of all, being able to "See all time periods simultaneously" can be done with Cosmic Awareness; people do not need Immeasurable speeds to see that.

Er, Cosmic Awareness’s page just covers space. I don’t see where it mentions time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's mentioned association with Clairvoyance, which is often associated with Precognition. But other staff members basically said all the time Omnipresent wide Precognition is called Cosmic Awareness.

 

[ElixirBlue]

It's mentioned association with Clairvoyance, which is often associated with Precognition. But other staff members basically said all the time Omnipresent wide Precognition is called Cosmic Awareness.

Precognition just covers the future, I guess.

If all staff agrees, it would be nice for it to be reflected on the ability’s page.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If all staff agrees, it would be nice for it to be reflected on the ability pages.

This, all of this

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

First of all, being able to "See all time periods simultaneously" can be done with Cosmic Awareness; people do not need Immeasurable speeds to see that. And even if it did, it would only arguably be Immeasurable Perception, not quite speed. Everyone can see a Subsonic object coming for them, but that doesn't always mean we can all move at Subsonic speeds. @DontTalkDT has often discussed the difference between perception and speed. Perception is the ability to see, feel, or hear things faster where as speed is the ability to physically move and react faster. Also, I said Immeasurable perception only as in umbrella term. It's not that they had a reaction time faster than instant, it's just that the periods are just coming to them, or they already had knowledge of the future and are able to prep time. Their eyes, nose, and ears having temporal omnipresence isn't actually proof his perception is Immeasurable, more like that it's the knowledge is inside him from the beginning. So I do not really see how it proves his perception isn't equal to his speed.

Cosmic awareness is ability to know events beyond your range, Saying that Solaris' perceptions of his environment should be cosmic awareness is same as saying I a normal 3D human need cosmic awareness to perceive my 3D room and its objects I am currently sitting in.

I'll explain why , a timeline has size defined by its length, breadth , height and most importantly time duration. Basically hypervolume. Guess what Solaris has , hypervolume...he also has length, breadth and height, and also time duration as an aspect of his size. He is a 4D being in a 4D room. He doesn't need Cosmic Awareness to perceive anything, normal 5 senses work just fine.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Solaris is a 4D being in a 4D room. He doesn't need Cosmic Awareness to perceive anything, normal 5 senses work just fine.

That is true... he isn’t a 3-D being with 4D power existing in 4D space

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I have no knowledge on this verse at all but I'll try to give it a shot seeing as I was called here. First off, what exactly is the Immeasurable speed feat?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

For the "Immeasurable can be gained with less" argument; that actually is just saying Solaris isn't quite 100% omnipresent, just super present. They need to exist in all periods of at least one timeline to be considered omnipresent, which would make Immeasurable speed harder to believe. But I didn't see the scan that said "He didn't exist in the distant future or distant past". But might be broken URLs. I only saw scans saying he was temporally omnipresent.

He just provided a hypothetical situation where he says that even without proper omnipresence for Solaris , Hedgehogs would still need Immeasurable speed to brawl with him physically.
True temporal omnipresence as he has as demonstrated is even more impressive, thus immeasurable speed of Sonic's for defeating Solaris cannot be ignored just because its "too impressive.

Back to the earlier posts, it's already mentioned that dodging attacks with temporal area of effect doesn't require Immeasurable speed. Characters who nuke entire timelines who shook/harmed other characters with temporal AoE wasn't considered Immeasurable attack speed. Those specific details are just Temporal Area of Effect. Kratos isn't Immeasurable for shaking Yggdrasil, Kirinmaru isn't Immeasurable for effecting the Tree of Ages. And I believe plenty of other staff members have brought up many other examples, but almost every single Tier 2 character could be interpreted as having Immeasurable attack speed thus enemies having Immeasurable reaction via outpacing the omnidirectional temporal dimension blast radius

Temporal AoE has no bearance on speed for Solaris or Sonic, its just a very necessary hax for Sonic to damage his entire 4D long body even if he hits infinistismal part of his body, its just that , a way apply hurt all over his body.

Solaris doesn't need temporal AoE to hurt Hedgehogs, his phyiscal size already covers that, he just exists and its temporally omnipresent, he breathes and it happens in all points in time, he punches and they exist all across time. Temporal AoE would be when he specifically pin point strikes a 3D spot and that damage automaticlly applies to all points in time on that space simultaneously, its just cause and effect, more accurately one cause and uncountably infinite effects.
Quite literally status effect inducement accross time.
The Blast that happens at Solaris birth can be seen physically traveling in time itself, its not Temporal AoE, its quite literally blatant example of immeasurable speed phenomenon.

The immeasurable speed for Sonic is a mandatory requirement because he needs to dodge attacks that are quite literally having 4D sizes with time duration as an aspect of their size. Especially when time itself is a natural axis of movement for Solaris.

A dot is free to move along a line freely naturally, a circle can naturally move in all apsects of its 2D plane naturally :- example small circle moving in a square.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/826400106391666728/843016174584201236/ease-applied-to-tween-with-bouncein-example.gif
A 3D sphere can bounce around in a 3D cubic room quite freely, its movement is a natural aspect of of its size , shape and dimensionality.


Same way for Solaris who is 4D via having time duration as an aspect of his physical size and dimensionality, movement for him in a 4D (space-time or also called non Euclidean I believe) construct is just as natural.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Honestly, I have no knowledge on this verse at all but I'll try to give it a shot seeing as I was called here. First off, what exactly is the Immeasurable speed feat?

The context is that Solaris is temporally omnipresent, he is Singular entity that exists in all of time simultaneously,
I.e he is uncountably long in temporal dimension.
everyone on both sides firmly agrees on that here. Its not a point of contention.

Immeasurable speed is for 3 Hedgehogs , their feat is well......physically brawling with Solaris , a simple feat but with wild implications. Immeasurable speed is mandatory requirement for Hedgehogs as a result, the mechanics of that are explored and explained in depth throughout the last and this thread. Shakeresounding's summary and my above comments should give that info for the moment.

Downgrade party disgree that immeasurable speed is needed for Sonic to defeat Solaris, they argue that some wierd haxxxes alone without immeasurable speed will make the fight possible and we have countered that.

 

[Planck69]

The context is that Solaris is temporally omnipresent, he is Singular entity that exists in all of time simultaneously,
I.e he is uncountably long in temporal dimension.
everyone on both sides firmly agrees on that here. Its not a point of contention.

Immeasurable speed is for 3 Hedgehogs , their feat is well......physically brawling with Solaris , a simple feat but with wild implications. Immeasurable speed is mandatory requirement for Hedgehogs as a result, the mechanics of that are explored and explained in depth throughout the last and this thread. Shakeresounding's summary and my above comments should give that info for the moment.

Downgrade party disgree that immeasurable speed is needed for Sonic to defeat Solaris, they argue that some wierd haxxxes alone without immeasurable speed will make the fight possible and we have countered that.

So, they fight a temporally omnipresent being? Okay, good to know.

Where's the actual Immeasurable speed feat here? I went through the opposition to the downgrade and it just seems to be trying to argue why it could fit as opposed to actually proving it is that speed.

And it really isn't necessary. Range and clairvoyance/enhanced senses/cosmic awareness whatever could fit just fine.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Where's the actual Immeasurable speed feat here? I went through the opposition to the downgrade and it just seems to be trying to argue why it could fit as opposed to actually proving it is that speed.

And it really isn't necessary. Range and clairvoyance/enhanced senses/cosmic awareness whatever could fit just fine.

The entire fight is the feat, but to be more precise immeasurable speed is for dodging attacks from Solaris.


It is. All the abilities you have mentioned have no bearing on physical speed, being able to percieve something does not give physical speed needed to dodge the attack.

Our own VsB that happen are proof of that, we have speed equalised battles even with characters involving all the abilities you mentioned above, why? Simply because even small speed disparity can lead to blitz or outpacing, you cannot have two characters in "cut to cut" or "normal" physical brawl without having one having the functionaly equivalent speed as other character, as in same tier of speed.

Solaris and Sonic can functionally match each others physical "speed". Sonic being even able to bare minimum outpace or imo blitz Solaris.

And I can already predict your question or contention to this, hehehe...ask away.

 

[Planck69]

The entire fight is the feat, but to be more precise immeasurable speed is for dodging attacks from Solaris.

So, they dodge an attack from a temporally omnipresent being. That in itself isn't an Immeasurable speed feat.

It is. All the abilities you have mentioned have no bearing on physical speed, being able to percieve something does not give physical speed needed to dodge the attack.

Our own VsB that happen are proof of that, we have speed equalised battles even with characters involving all the abilities you mentioned above, why? Simply because even small speed disparity can lead to blitz or outpacing, you cannot have two characters in "cut to cut" or "normal" physical brawl without having one having the functionaly equivalent speed as other character, as in same tier of speed.

This again, has no bearing on whether it's Immeasurable speed or not.

Solaris and Sonic can functionally match each others physical "speed". Sonic being even able to bare minimum outpace or imo blitz Solaris.

And I can already predict your question or contention to this, hehehe...ask away.

Why is Solaris Immeasurable in speed?

Seriously, maybe I'm misunderstanding you in which case that's my mistake but why does this feel like the proof starts with the assumption that something here is already the speed being argued for?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry for late reply, I was busy in some work and my typing speed is slow.

Just as I predicted hehehe....we came back full circle to crux of all debate :- Solaris and his omnipresence.

So, they dodge an attack from a temporally omnipresent being. That in itself isn't an Immeasurable speed feat.

It is actually, I'll explain why.

This again, has no bearing on whether it's Immeasurable speed or not.

Well that paragraph was just to establish that Solaris and Sonic have "functionally same speed" for a physical brawl. And you seem to agree , thats all I wanted.
Now I can move on what type of tier is their "functional speed" similar to.

Why is Solaris Immeasurable in speed?

Thats a very important question, one that I expected to be asked.

Solaris is temporally omnipresent, which as a by product gives "functional immeasurable" speed . Technically his "speed" is even superior to immeasurable speed, and has many advantages over it, but that's for another time.

People here that disagree with "functionally immeasurable" speed, give the alternative of MFTL+ with temporal omnipresence as if the latter has no bearing on other.

I'll debunk that notion here and now.

First and foremost it is logistically and logically impossible for Solaris to have finite speed.
Finite speed is measure of distance w.r.t time.
S= D/T.
And time is defined as
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/827963339267112970/842976785053777960/Screenshot_20210515-093819_English.jpg
Saying that Solaris's existance and his actions are events that helplessly flows from future to present into past like finite speed characters is quite fallacious. It completely contradicts Temporal Omnipresence. And is an unfair downplay to Solaris.
Giving finite speed to Solaris has severe contradictory implications :-
A) That would mean that Solaris has multiple versions of himself in points of time like us normal humans do , a version of Solaris in every slice of 3D space, and we know 3D space is uncountably infinitismal slice of a timeline, like a numbers on a real line. And each consequent version is just a updated version of Solaris w.r.t time.
2) There is only one version of Solaris and he just updates his version sequentially in each 3D space slice or frame.

Both the above versions contradict Temporal Omnipresence heavily, there is only one Solaris not multiple of them, He is 4D being, with his size extending accross time from past to the future, his thickness runs from Zeroth 3D space slice to infinith 3D space slice. He doesn't update hisself w.r.t time.
He exists in every point in time simultaneously, his actions happen in all points in time simultaneously, breathing or punching.
Time does not run conventionally for this guy, its non linear, its an aspect of his size, it cannot be used to measure his speed, using time to measure his speed is perfect equavivalent as taking all the distance moved by 3D object in all 3 principle axis (x,y,z) and giving speed like S = x/z + y/z + z/z, see how fallacious it is? Quite literally dividing length and breadth of movement by depth to arrive at speed, or any other variation of above.
Thats why time cannot be used to measure Solaris speed, since its an aspect of its physicality.
Applying Speed formula for Solaris is like
S = T/T, where T is time.

Solaris is a 4D being in a 4D contruct, moving for him in this construct naturally involves him moving in all aspects of its dimension which includes dimension of time, denying him that natural ability is like arbitrarily and unfairly denying a 3D ball its movement in one of the axis and constricting his movement to a 2D plain.
Imagine me saying that you can only move in 2D plane, thats what we are doing to Solaris.

tldr;
1)Saying that Solaris is finite speed is a severe contradiction to his temporal omnipresence,
2) speed formula cannot be applied to him due to being independent of it.
3) Movement in time is as natural for him as movement of 3D object is in depth and height of a 3D environment.

And by process of elimination, we cannot use finite speed as a downgrade alternative for Solaris. It goes against his entire existance.

Since time is undefined for his movements, thats because you cannot measure speed as movement in time w.r.t time, so "functionally immeasurable speed".

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Seriously, maybe I'm misunderstanding you in which case that's my mistake but why does this feel like the proof starts with the assumption that something here is already the speed being argued for?

Heh somehow this part of comment was not visible to me.....I only now saw it as if it magically added itself, even though your comment was in front of me the entire time.

But to answer that question , no we are not assuming immeasurable speed for him, its a natural consequence of his size and existence. Finite and infinite speed just entirely contradict that part of him.

And Sonic needs immeasurable speed to combat someone of "functionally immeasurable" speed.
Sonic cannot fight him with finite speed, its logistically impossible.

 

[Planck69]

A lot of the technobabble above honestly makes no sense to me. I have no clue why being present throughout a space-time physically necessitates Immeasurable speed beyond some stuff about it being "fallacious otherwise".

And it seems to be implying that any being omnipresent throughout a space-time continuum would be this fast, which is its own can of worms.

I'll just wait for more input on that before deciding anything.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Bruh, I feel like a idiot chump now, an over imaginative person with his head in clouds...technically that is a accurate description of me ....I was called the most absent minded student in my class, all my efforts wasted formulating this dicey subject.
Not that I enjoyed typing it all out, all I can do is express myelf to the best of my abilities.

But yeah basically finite speed breaks temporal omnipresence, infinite speed also breaks it, immeasurable is the only option.
End of the story.
Silly me , that was easy.

 

[Planck69]

Well, I'll just see what other staff have to say on that matter.

Can't wait for Immeasurable Zamasu

 

[Greenshifter]

@Planck69 Since Solaris is a 4D being he should be able to casually move in 4 dimensions (well he’s infinitely long in the time dimension so he doesn’t need to move in that direction. but it doesn’t change my point). So you need to be able to casually move in 4 dimensions to counter him as well. This is supported by his laser attacks looking the same throughout all time periods (so they’re also temporarily omnipresent). If you just have really good abilities and you attack Solaris with finite speed then he’ll have decided to block your attack a million years ago.

Also the fact that you need 2 temporal dimensions to even describe how Solaris moves (since 1 temporal dimension is completely occupied with him so showing his movement to a different point in space requires a second one) already proves that you can’t just defeat him with finite speed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can't wait for Immeasurable Zamasu

Zamasu doesn’t have proof of his attacks being temporally omnipresent and doesn’t have arms to block. Also it’d be an outlier for Goku + what even stops Zamasu from just killing Goku as a kid anyways even with the way we currently treat him, might just not make sense regardless? Also Gilver’s point was that temporal omnipresence and immeasurable speed are similarly “fast”, not that they’re the same thing, this holds true regardless of what Zamasu does.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

When will I learn to be on point , precise and concise as Greenshifter ??...........

 

[Greenshifter]

Lol, you did a good job, now I gotta run! Good luck guys!

 

[Theuser789]

Back to the earlier posts, it's already mentioned that dodging attacks with temporal area of effect doesn't require Immeasurable speed. Characters who nuke entire timelines who shook/harmed other characters with temporal AoE wasn't considered Immeasurable attack speed. Those specific details are just Temporal Area of Effect. Kratos isn't Immeasurable for shaking Yggdrasil, Kirinmaru isn't Immeasurable for effecting the Tree of Ages. And I believe plenty of other staff members have brought up many other examples, but almost every single Tier 2 character could be interpreted as having Immeasurable attack speed thus enemies having Immeasurable reaction via outpacing the omnidirectional temporal dimension blast radius

DDM, our argument wasn't that destroying a timeline is immeasurable, we literally never said that, we made a calc of the Time Eater destroying a timeline and we didn't argue it as immeasurable. The difference here is that this AoE blast actively travelled to the future to affect another timeline that is removed from where Solaris is, this means the blast has immeasurable attack speed for reaching the future, this is further proved by the fact he used Silver's emeralds from the future as well, I don't see how this is simply just a finite feat

 

[Theuser789]

Well, I'll just see what other staff have to say on that matter.

Can't wait for Immeasurable Zamasu

Zamasu is different since we actively see him attack in one place only, plus he would only be spatially onmipresent, which would only give someone infinite speed at best at a high ball, and him affecting the present would just be range

People also forgot to tell you about Solaris AoE blast when he was born, that blast affected the future of another timeline, to the point of it even affecting the Chaos Emeralds from there, a blast travelling from the past to the future would definitvely be immeasurable in attack speed

 

[Planck69]

Zamasu is different since we actively see him attack in one place only, plus he would only be spatially onmipresent, which would only give someone infinite speed at best at a high ball, and him affecting the present would just be range

People also forgot to tell you about Solaris AoE blast when he was born, that blast affected the future of another timeline, to the point of it even affecting the Chaos Emeralds from there, a blast travelling from the past to the future would definitvely be immeasurable in attack speed

I hope you realize that this blast can very easily be range. It depends on the context surrounding it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Zamasu doesn’t have proof of his attacks being temporally omnipresent and doesn’t have arms to block. Also it’d be an outlier for Goku + what even stops Zamasu from just killing Goku as a kid anyways even with the way we currently treat him, might just not make sense regardless?

Timelines in Dragon Ball works much differently than in Sonic, so I don't know why using Dragon Ball would be good here. Even if IZ kills Kid Goku, that wouldn't affect the present, but rather create a new timeline in which Goku died as a kid (Which we know didn't happen since a new time ring wasn't created due to that)

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

About Infinite Zamasu, the guy did nothing but laugh his ass off, and in his arrogance and stupidity he died.
The guy literally does not have showings of combat with anyone, so it is impossible to scale any cast to him.

Solaris is exactly opposite, he is combative and smart and faught seriously. Had physical brawl with Hedgehogs so they can be scaled to each other.

 

[Theuser789]

I hope you realize that this blast can very easily be range. It depends on the context surrounding it.

I know, but you are incorrect, since you yourself don't even know the context

We visibly see the blast fly out of Solaris, if it was only range we wouldn't see it expand fowards, in conclusion it's clearly speed

 

[Planck69]

I know, but you are incorrect, since you yourself don't even know the context

About what? I say it can easily be range depending on context, which I don't know. I'm not asserting anything one way or the other.

We visibly see the blast fly out of Solaris, if it was only range we wouldn't see it expand fowards, in conclusion it's clearly speed

What? A shock wave can be range just fine.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yo. I’m seeing some funky assertions rn.

 

[JED]

The thing is, that no matter what, the hedgehogs blatantly perform an immeasurable regardless of whether Solaris retains immeasurable or not. They have to literally move through time in order to fight in throughout ALL of time.

 

[Planck69]

If they move through time via sheer speed then why would this thread be an issue to begin with?

 

[Theuser789]

About what? I say it can easily be range depending on context, which I don't know. I'm not asserting anything one way or the other.

Just because it CAN be something doesn't mean it is, I have showed both evidence and the context that it is speed, since we clearly SEE the blast move, via the burden of rejoinder you have to explain why it's just range

What? A shock wave can be range just fine.

This *blast clearly has a speed, if it was just range we wouldn't see it gain speed

If they move through time via sheer speed then why would this thread be an issue to begin with?

Because the opposite side argues moving through time via speed is not immeasurable, DDM even said in his post such thing

The Time Travel part and rift example I agree with those parts; that was Base Sonic and the like that used them where as the Super Hedgehogs pretty much just flew. But I still see that as simply Time Travel, similar to what AKM Sama says about Pre-Crisis Superman. And he's about to have his Immeasurable speed rating removed.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Time travel via speed being immeasurable got more strict standards from my understanding. Don't know the reasons though