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That’s literally my point exactly. Idk why or how this thread became a thing lol. We think alike my guy
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Sonic Immeasurable Speed Debates Continued
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Ye it got downgraded to light speed.
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Not quite. There's a difference between moving beyond linear time via sheer speed and having the range to attack across 4 dimensional space-time. Unless you think that all multiverse destroying explosions are automatically Immeasurable.
Isn't the main point of contention that Solaris isn't Immeasurable in speed? If Sonic has a feat of running through time via speed then I'm all for it being Immeasurable.
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What was the reason though? It seems kinda dumb to me
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It’s because moving at light speeds can bring you to the future. Several verses do this so other verses suffered as a result.
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Because they wanted it to be.
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That's idiotic as ****, if we wanna be honest. Not all verses treat it like that, and Sonic isn't definitely one of those where LS = Time Travel
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It does in Sonic CD.
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Yes, I know, I talked about this in this comment:
In short this actively reached a different timeline's future in specific, as seeing by the fact Silver didn't have his emeralds anymore in the intersection, and unlike the Master Emerald they aren't onmipresent through time, it was Solaris who reached out to it with the blast
The comment I quoted in the previous post was the opposite's side counter argument against it, but yes, the trio actively travels through time by flying in order to fight Solaris, it seems to be commonly agreed by the fact everyone agrees Silver and Shadow are in different time periods and yet they all flew from the same point in time
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I completely forgot CD's existence, even though I played and finished it
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Not really. Classic Sonic is already FTL, and he specficially needs the Time posts to Time Travwl. This isn't done by his normal speed
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CD is a special case, Sonic can time travel via the time posts in Little Planet, they work in the manner that when you touch one it allows someone to time travel by going at light speed, but this is unique to Little Planet
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If that's the case my point stands, and i'm pretty sure it puts the arguments against Immeasurable speed to sleep
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so dodging attacks from a temporal omnipresent being across linear time isn’t immeasurable??
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Idk man, it seems weird to me but that's the standard apparently...
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also, if these downgrades would be accepted, would archie sonic be affected to? cuz his immeasurable speed stems on archie solaris
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I think Archie has other feats other than Solaris that could be argued
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They do? That's good...
ShakeResounding
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@DarkDragonMedeus ... Those aren't supposed to be Discord links lol. I'll fix that when I get to my laptop. But my question is this. In what possible way can a finite-speed character see and react to an attack that is also Temporally Omnipresent (as my very first link in my post shows)? More specifically, what possible ability can you give to the Super Trio without completely breaking the narrative as a whole? The way I see it, there's nothing you could give them that isn't heavily contradictory.
They're dodging attacks that have been launched millions of years earlier and millions of years later, and the Super Trio are seeing it like one would see the present and dodging them. This seems to blatantly be a non-finite speed feat unless you somehow try and go the easy way out and say "Uhhh... Hax." Which, at that point, seems to be just making up abilities on the spot that the story never conveys.
They're dodging attacks that have been launched millions of years earlier and millions of years later, and the Super Trio are seeing it like one would see the present and dodging them. This seems to blatantly be a non-finite speed feat unless you somehow try and go the easy way out and say "Uhhh... Hax." Which, at that point, seems to be just making up abilities on the spot that the story never conveys.
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yea if it’s not immeasurable, no way it’s finite speed lmfao
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If it's temporally omnipresent, I'm pretty sure everyone just sees it due to being in everyone from everyone's time periods. But as for reacting to it; it happens all the time. And it's not "Hax" I'm not sure why people keep overusing that word to describe my interpretations, it's range. Blocking or dodging attacks if extreme range just doesn't require non-infinite speed; blocking doesn't really even require speed and dodging just requires range.
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After some rethinking, I have big problems with this.
Though I think if time was still intact then he would absolutely be omnipresent across time and space. However due to the conditions, that’s not possible and the Supers should not scale.
Silvers Future
This statement is incorrect. Shadow says the future is a different timeline in the English dub only. This is what he says in the Japanese dub and he doesn’t state it’s an alternative timeline but a different era. We’re also told more than once and that changes in Sonic’s present affect Silvers’s future. That’s what the plot revolves around and the entire reason Silver wanted to travel to the past. Separate timelines don’t affect each other like that. Sonic and Silver definitely share a timeline.AOE Blast
Initially I thought this 100% undeniable. However, what Solaris did was distort space distort space. Since space and time are interwoven, time was affected as a result of distorted space. That explains why the characters from present and future were in a singular area. So technically it wasn’t an AOE blast that reached the future. The timeline would’ve been destroyed if that was really what happened.Time Space Rift
Here (Page 310, paragraph 2) it’s stated the rift is pulling apart the space time continuum. This is the same rift the characters are placed in after Solaris wakes up. By definition a rift is a crack or split within something. If the rift is a crack in space and time, then neither space nor time exists within it. He can’t be omnipresent across time if it’s not present. I know the idea is that the trio left the rift to fight Solaris, but all they do is fly upward. We see they’re still in the rift because the background is the same as the one in the cutscenes. Eggman even comments on the light shells on Solaris, meaning he can still see him. Not to mention after Solaris is beaten, we see he was in the rift the entire time.Though I think if time was still intact then he would absolutely be omnipresent across time and space. However due to the conditions, that’s not possible and the Supers should not scale.
TDLR
Silver’s future isn’t a separate timeline and was affected by the spatial distortion. As a result, a rift with no space or was created, and being inside said rift completely negs Solaris having temporal omnipresence at that moment.
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... Bruh, Sonic literally says the opposite, that now that he can change his future, Silver can change his, Mephiles is unrealible
Then why didn't his future change then and he had to seal Iblis? Because you are wrong
The Timeline was destroyed, and as explained above they aren't the same worlds, Silver's world is separated from Sonic's
You are being hyprocritical here, you can't debunk Silver's world being an different by saying "english dub only" then use things from the english dub only, this doesn't even make sense, if Solaris wasn't onmipresent then Knuckles would be right and they wouldn't need Sonic, the story debunks your headcanon
The plot debunks this, they wouldn't need Sonic if you were right
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The Future/Past Posts are game mechanics, as far as I'm aware.
Little Planets shitfs between time periods arbitrarily, and you need the 7 Time Stones to choose the time period.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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It's still due to the nature of Little Planet. Classic Sonic can't time travel through sheer speed normally
The sign posts are not game mechanics since they're the reason Sonic can time travel. Normally Sonic isn't able to time travel on his own, but when passing the Time Posts, he can should he moves fast enough AFTER they're activated
If Sonic could time travel on his own, then he wouldn't have needed the time posts at all to go to the past/future
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I am honestly pretty tired of debating the same points, so here's list of things that are already agreed:
Solaris is onmipresent through time, and so are his attacks
The trio travelled through time to fight Solaris
Sonic and Silver's world are separate, otherwise the ending of Silver's story makes no sense
The intersection was made after Solaris destroyed the timelines, being a direct consequence of it
Now we need to look at this and form our own conclusions to which, understood?
Solaris is onmipresent through time, and so are his attacks
The trio travelled through time to fight Solaris
Sonic and Silver's world are separate, otherwise the ending of Silver's story makes no sense
The intersection was made after Solaris destroyed the timelines, being a direct consequence of it
Now we need to look at this and form our own conclusions to which, understood?
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Nah, i don't understand that need, but this is entertaining!
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Even if we agree they’re separate timelines, it doesn’t help your case. Time was broken as a result of warped space. Warping space doesn’t give you immeasurable speed.
If the timeline was destroyed then how can there be a past present and future for Solaris to exist in?
I’m not using an English cutscene here, it’s just a guidebook. We use English guidebooks for Japanese products all the time so there’s no problem. Unless you can get a raw translation, then I might consider conceding on this point.
When we’re shown > what’s been stated. What we’re shown, with supporting statements, is there’s no time or space (especially when you made the claim that the timeline was destroyed). What we’re told is that he’s omnipresent across time. Since there’s no time to begin with, that statement is contradicted.
The writers are incompetent.
My last comment points out what’s necessary, no need to repeat myself.
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Where does range even come from?
Range exists because speed exists.
Range = speed × time
If AK47 7.62x39 has a effective range of 300-400m, thats because it has ~715m/s muzzle velocity.
Light has speed too, but we don't just say range for dodging/blocking reacting to it, it has tangible value for speed of reacting no matter how low or high the value.
The only way you can argue non-speed based range is like .....summoning or teleportation,
Only way a bullet can have non speed based range is if its hitscan, only way light can be speedless is if its summoned between 2 points in space at every point simultaneously.
Only way a physical strike can have speedless range is ......how?? I can't even imagine it!!
I am pretty sure all actions done by Solaris are 100% kinetic, the traveling """"distance in time"""", only special aspect about it is that time is a natural aspect for Solaris' physical movements and thus cannot be used for measuring his speed, you have to rely on 2nd temporal dimension to even properly describe its movements.
If 2 beings are having cut to cut physical brawl then they need "equivalent speed" period,
What your logic entails is like saying a supersonic guy can evenly or even superiorly physically brawl conventional style with a FTL guy. Thats absurd.
Also you still haven't answered why movement in time is unnatural for a 4D being, we don't arbitrarily restrict axis of movement of 3D persons to 2D plane do we? Why deny Solaris his natural ability to move in 4 dimensions?
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Thanks for the concession in the first part, but the space only got warped after the blast hit it, the blast hitting the future to even cause it to be harmed is immeasurable
This I don't fully know, but that's the what the narrative tells us, 06 implies as if time itself is destroyed only after everything else by Shadow before he fights Mephiles
Yes, an english guide book, and no "we" don't use it, you are still being hyprocritical since the japonese dub debunks it, you are using extremely double standards here, you can't cherrypick what you want
OR your headcanon is wrong, what we are show is that Solaris is onmipresent and that the three hedgehogs are needed, "bad writting" is cop-out that your argument makes no sense and goes against the game, the plot>>>>>>>>your interpretation, always, that's how it always has been
Silver being in the same timeline is debunked by the ending of his story, there being only one Solaris because muh rift is debunked by the entire last story, it seems as if your points have no basis in the game itself but only on what you think things should be
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Drop the aggression Theuser, I get that debating can be frustrating. This goes to everyone else debating, I will call you out if you get aggressive.
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I am agressive because something personal that Zamasu did tbh
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Please keep personal vendettas to your conversations...
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This is an understandable reason, although not a good one... You should discuss this in private tbh
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You are right, going to edit my post to be more civil
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Thank you
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Something reaching another timeline isn’t immeasurable speed. Space separates timelines while time separate the past, present, and future. Warping space to the point where it reaches another space is not immeasurable whatsoever.
You don’t know? So your argument is a potential narrative idea? That’s not safe for your case. Arguing that there’s no time only hurts Solaris being omnipresent across time.
When it comes anime and other Japanese media, there’s no problem with using a guide. Let me tell you the difference between using dubs and guides. Dubs purposely change dialogue to better match the lip flaps or characters. They also change words up to whatever sounds better in context. Guides, on the other hand, a merely direct translations of the original Japanese text.
By “we” I mean the wiki. English guidebooks are used for Japanese media all the time. So, like I said before, unless you have the original Japanese text with raw translations, then m not backing down.
It’s not my interpretation dude. It’s what we’re shown. Solaris warping space and affecting time, the characters being in a rift/void, you getting the idea the entire timeline was destroyed, all these factors point to time being non existent where everyone is. But you’re willing to take a contradicted statement as facts? User if your response to my earlier question was “idk, narrative go burrrr” then I’m gonna ask you to concede.
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Except I am not arguing this, at all, I am arguing that the blast reached the future of another timeline, not that it just reached another space, also again, Solaris didn't warp space, space got warped as a consequence of him destroying it
I didn't argue this, stop twisting my words as you are doing with 06, my argument is things that are actually in the game
Except the japonese dub contradicts it, this is all just you thinking that your interpretation is more correct than others while ignoring everything agaisnt it, even your interpretation of guides is such, since I have seen theads rejecting guides before, such as the previous low 2-C Mario thread
We aren't show this at all, this is simply an interpretation, we aren't show that there's no time (unlike in Generations for example), the characters are show to be in a void, but not Solaris, visibly outside of it.
In fact did you forget that they go to the past right after the Solaris fight? To blow his flame out? If what you said were true this would be impossible as well. Therefore the statment is never contradicted, in fact it's show time and time again it's correct, and that your interpretations are wrong, we can't ignore several plot points simple based on what we think should happen, that's a cop-out, the fact is that Solaris was onmipresent through time because it existed there, as seen in the literal last cutscene of the game
No offense but his points go against the game several time, not only they contradict half of the last story, they also contradict how they actually beat Solaris at the end, you have to simply ignore too much of the game for him to be correct, and at this point we wouldn't even be talking about 06
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I mean, reaching another timeline would be implying he's actually reaching a separate space time, which doesn't unfortunately count for immeasurable speed
Unless you meant time period?
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