Sonic Immeasurable Speed Debates Continued

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A continuation from this thread which has gotten filled up and needed to be refreshed and clarified from square one.

But anyway, with the recent revisions here and later updated here have listed more restrictions as to what qualifies as Immeasurable speed. However, the primary one is the policy on characters being able to keep up with omnipresent foes in combat. Which I have been through numerous discussions where I hear a bunch of arguments on both sides, as well as multiple categories levels of omnipresence and the difference between omnipresence and nigh-omnipresence. But the final outcome is simply having temporal omnipresence shouldn't automatically make it the default that they have Immeasurable combat speed and reactions or that every attack that comes from said character is Immeasurable or Omnipresent. Though, their is currently a contradiction in the 1st paragraph due to being outdated; more info is listed on the Note 3 of the speed page and particularly the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. To quote...

It is commonly assumed that characters who are omnipresent across both space and time would be able to act and react much more quickly than regular characters, by virtue of their sheer size, but this is not always backed up by the source material. Though the nature of their existence makes fighting and harming them difficult for conventional fighters, requiring the use of abilities capable of affecting their entire being, as well as the ability to dodge their potentially omnipresent attacks, it is not necessarily impossible, as an omnipresent character's reaction time may still be limited.

This should all be analyzed on a case by case basis - omnipresent characters cannot be automatically assumed to have Infinite or Immeasurable speeds, and attacks coming from them do not necessarily cover the entire universe or multiverse. Some attacks can even be temporally but not spatially omnipresent, and these attacks do not necessarily move through space at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds. Despite the difficulty, it is possible for characters with certain abilities, such as Acausality, Cosmic Awareness, and Dimensional Travel, along with sufficient area of effect or hax, to keep up with omnipresent characters with measurable reaction and attack speeds.

But despite these new additions, there is still a multitude of concerns that lead to confusion. Admittedly, it is a very confusing topic and really difficult to explain, but simple reasons such as "Being omnipresent is actually better than Immeasurable because they'd win a race against Immeasurable" aren't actually the best practice and leads to too many loopholes. Plus, one of the most important facts about Omnipresence is that it is not a speed rating, but a size rating. Omnipresent characters are simply Immobile, but occupy entire universes/multiverses on a potentially temporal level. But this also has nothing to do with their combat speed or reactions; a character could be the size of a galaxy via nigh-omnipresence, thus would win an interstellar race against a Massively FTL+ character, but same character may not actually have any note worthy combat speed or reactions to speak of. They never traveled across the race track, they simply one by physically larger than the entire race track. It's not like the same character has Massively FTL+ comets or punches or kicks, or physically move a meter in less than a nanosecond. The same thing applies to characters who are omnipresent on a infinite 3D universal scale or even a 4D Multiversal scale. The don't physically move infinite distance within a finite amount of time or respectively move uncountable infinite distance within a negative amount of time. They simply don't even move at all.

Then we also have the different categories of omnipresence. There exist spatial omnipresence, temporal omnipresence, spacetime omnipresence, and Nigh-Omnipresence for wide categories. Omnipresence refers to those on universal or multiversal levels, where as Nigh-Omnipresence can apply to those spatially omnipresent on levels less than universal or simply omnipresent across time but not space. However, the only ones relevant for now are those with temporal omnipresence. There are plenty of characters who fight and defeat those who are omnipresent across time and space on a consistent level, but lack Immeasurable speed. So either all of those need to be upgraded to Immeasurable, or these character lose their Immeasurable speed rating. But here are some basic premises to how to defeat an omnipresent being.

1. They must be able to strike all time periods simultaneously. Does this mean this require Immeasurable attack speed? No, it does not. One might be thinking it's because Omnipresent foes actively dodge the attack; actually, it's simply because the attacks are not large enough to land a solid hit even with Immeasurable attack speed. However, with the area of effect required to strike an omnipresent, they can land regardless of their reactions, or attack speed being Immeasurable or not. Is this hax? It can be, but not quite; it's simply Area of Effect or Range. Just like we don't grant infinite attack speed to those who can nuke or effect an infinite sized 3D universe, we don't grant Immeasurable attack speed to those who nuke or effect entire timelines or multiverses.
2. They must be able to survive attacks from an omnipresent in some shape or form. This is a much more broad and not very specific requirement. Do you need to be fast enough to dodge or react? Do you need to be durable to tank it? Do you need some kind of state of being hax resistance that negates time paradoxes? To answer, not all of it but just some parts. But is dodging an attack from an omnipresent possible? Yes and no. The first paragraph of note 3 should be worded, but it should be specifying that attacks with omnipresent Area of Effect are undodgable; because the statement that claims "All attacks from an omnipresent being are unavoidable for those with finite speed" is wrong. For one, just because a character is omnipresent doesn't mean every comet, meteor, or laser attack the throw is omnipresent across time and space. They may choose any starting location they see fit, making them extremely difficult to predict, but it's not impossible to react to their attacks even for those with finite reaction speeds. However, if they nuke the entire timeline outright, it is undodgable even for those with Immeasurable speeds unless they find away to leave the entire timeline outright. Which is possible via dimensional travel. But as said, if an attack is avoidable via traditional spot and react, it's not an omnipresent attack thus has finite presence.

I have gotten some basics of omnipresence out of the way, but what about Nigh-Omnipresent beings who are omnipresent across all time and not space? They're in most of the same boat, only it's logically even easier for a finite speed character to take out than those who are omnipresent across time and space. For one, they aren't always nuking the entire universe/multiverse; they often have attacks less than planetary in terms of AoE. But it appears some of their meteors or lasers have "Temporal area of effect" or "Temporal omnipresence". As I said and others have said, just because the character throwing the attacks is omnipresent across time, doesn't mean every attack they throw is. Especially if visual depictions or other non cosmic awareness characters are able to interpret them as just regular attacks. And while some attack do show some form of temporal AoE, it's not assumed by default they quite reached the beginning to the end of time by default. It can have limited levels of time and space distortion without actually effecting the entire timeline as @Antoniofer quoted on a previous thread. It can hit someone who is located in the future the same time it hits someone located in the past, is indeed temporal area of effect, but it's not something that needs infinite or immeasurable speed to react. And as for Temporal Omnipresent characters having a weak point that needs to be struck? That's simple, it just means that's the only part of their body that's durability is low enough to be struck by their foes. But their arms can still block attacks right? Well, attacks with temporal AoE can be blocked just like many other large AoE attacks.

Now there are other statements. There are claims that, "Those with temporal Omnipresence see the past, present, and future on an omnipresent scale and thus see all finite speed characters as frozen by default." That is simply not the case. By that logic, anyone with Cosmic Awareness on a temporal omnipresent level such as the case with Zanza, Chozo Ghosts, and plenty of other characters would be assumed to have Infinite/Immeasurable reaction speeds by that logic. They don't actually "Perceive all finite speed characters as frozen" rather they simply see an uncountable infinite number of those characters simultaneously. Which isn't frozen per say, and they can tell which ones are currently active, but that doesn't automatically mean they can react to it in 0 or negative reaction time. At best, it would only apply to perception and not speed. It is explained on the reactions page that there is a fine distinction between perception and speed. Perception is just simply noticing things coming and having a brief fraction of a second to react; where as speed is how much distance one changes in position within said amount of time. Omnipresent beings do not change position, so they have no speed, and we have advised against off panel evaded a bullet fired one cm away from you face being Massively Hypersonic by default. So at the same time, even having arguable Infinite/Immeasurable perception is definitely not enough to scale to combat speed or reactions.

One last thing, I have since stopped using any possible "Acausality type 2" proposals, but I think they're worth mentioning or comparing to Omnipresent beings. A character who is omnipresent across time but not space will be perceived in a similar matter to someone with Type 2. Yes, surprisingly, a character who lacks Cosmic Awareness will see a character similarly to how a Cosmic Awareness character sees a Type 2 Acausal. Tt is different and not saying anyone fighting Solaris would have Type 2. But basically, everyone would just be seeing the past, present, and future periods of Solaris as just the present Solaris. And this stands to reason why Solaris cannot make more than one different position period. He cannot punch left in the present while punching right in the future; he either has to do one or the other in all time periods. And those with Temporal Omnipresence fit as very similar or even as an enhanced version Type 3 Acausality. Sonic and Silver already has type 1, so their past selves are safe; but Shadow doesn't have it at the moment and it would imply his past selves still aren't safe. But Solaris is attacking Shadow while he is located in the past. So no one knows where all his past selves are located and don't appear to be anywhere near the battlefield against Solaris. But anyway, I don't know why Shadow doesn't have it. And normally, Solaris would be predicting the Hedgehogs every move, but maybe the Hedgehogs don't need to use deception; they're plenty fast enough and have their share of Massively FTL+ speed feats. They definitely do not have type 2 based on current definition, but I can see something beyond temporal Area of effect.

In conclusion, I still think Immeasurable speeds need to go, and that Solaris should have his speed changed to Nigh-Omnipresent. The Hedgehogs already have temporal Area of Effect as their attacks and there can still be some possible upgrades in other areas. But I still do not see anything left remaining that can justify Immeasurable speeds unfortunately.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Damn....talk about inopportune time....I just started my semester final exams today....even gave 2 exams today....And I am busy till 27th....hope this doesn't conclude untill then....

But anyway enough of my sad story...

Now I will only concern myself with temporal omni stuff here since it forms the crux of the issue....I have several disagreements here....especially involving the "perceiving all time as frozen across past, present and future"......its not simple as it seems....and also about "being bound by time stuff"....

I will elaborate later why temporal omnies can be more dangerous than immeasurables.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with everything, them having Immeasurable Speed was extremely weak and is just 4D range at most.

 

[Theuser789]

Before any counter arguments, did you organize those arguments of yours with people like DueDate, who had a different opinion on it? Because that was what was agreed to in order to restart the thread

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah and I see you also put our points and stance in the OP right under your arguments as previously agreed upon.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, I kinda wish the OP was more neutral since this is a continuation, and then in the thread itself there was the downgrade arguments (that I am happy to see, finally it's not just standards)

 

[Planck69]

Reading through the above and going over a bit of the past thread, I agree with DDM.

 

[Theuser789]

But Solaris is attacking Shadow while he is located in the past. So no one knows where all his past selves are located and don't appear to be anywhere near the battlefield against Solaris

Shadow being in the past is completely fanon so you shouldn't use that as a counter argument due to the lack of proof

But it appears some of their meteors or lasers have "Temporal area of effect" or "Temporal omnipresence". As I said and others have said, just because the character throwing the attacks is omnipresent across time, doesn't mean every attack they throw is. Especially if visual depictions or other non cosmic awareness characters are able to interpret them as just regular attacks.

You forgot the fact that attacks such as Solaris's lasers are connected to his body that is onmipresent, therefore they also have to be onmipresent

Anyways, I guess I could see Shadow getting type 1 acasuality as well, the in favor side is going to make a summary soon, so you could add them after they make it

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You forgot the fact that attacks such as Solaris's lasers are connected to his body that is onmipresent, therefore they also have to be onmipresent

I don't think there was ever a counter to this at all. It's as blatant as it is; Sonic and co dodged temporarily omnipresent lasers.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Following personally think Immeasurable feat is a outliner but eh.

 

[Theuser789]

Don't derrail this thread with any outler talks, that was settled in the previous thread

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Woah! I wasn't ready for all of this! Perhaps this is because we weren't at this step yet? Seriously dude. You've gotta stop ignoring us. When we said you need to settle your disagreements with Duedate, we meant it. That would save us ALOT of time, and help make up for all the time he's made us waste in the previous thread. You used to agree with him constantly without realizing the hypocrisy of it, and ever since I pointed it out, Duedate just left and it's like you pretend it never even mattered or even that he never said such things. IF for some reason, the guy dissapeared completely from the site, then his arguments better not pop up in this new thread. Otherwise, this is just gonna be a repeat of the first one.

 

[AKM sama]

You forgot the fact that attacks such as Solaris's lasers are connected to his body that is onmipresent, therefore they also have to be onmipresent

I don't think this has to necessarily and automatically be true. Why shouldn't he be capable of attacking at a time when it is required, instead of attacking at every time period ever? Just because the attack comes from his body that is present in all times, doesn't mean he is attacking in all times.

Also, Duedate is free to put forth his stance here if he wants. The disagreement can be settled here.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Either way, let's wait before we address all of those arguments at once. We nend a proper debate structure and we need to compile our arguments.

 

[Theuser789]

don't think this has to necessarily and automatically be true. Why shouldn't he be capable of attacking at a time when it is required, instead of attacking at every time period ever? Just because the attack comes from his body that is present in all times, doesn't mean he is attacking in all times.

That's not my point, the lasers are directly connected to his body, with him even doing a pose to fire them, they aren't just shooting out like the meteors, also need to make this clear but the hedgehogs aren't stuck in a time period, that is again fanon, you kinda need to prove Solaris is attacking in one of the periods and that the hedgehogs also are in one time period. Plus I don't see why he would attack in one time period, that's completely illogical and hasn't been proved as well

 

[Theuser789]

Either way, let's wait before we address all of those arguments at once. We nend a proper debate structure and we need to compile our arguments.

Yeah, this was sudden, it should have been comunicated better

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't think this has to necessarily and automatically be true. Why shouldn't he be capable of attacking at a time when it is required, instead of attacking at every time period ever? Just because the attack comes from his body that is present in all times, doesn't mean he is attacking in all times.

Also, Duedate is free to put forth his stance here if he wants. The disagreement can be settled here.

The logic here is based on a misconception of Solaris physiology.....but I'll strawman you regardless.....
Simple cuz thats a contradiction to his physiology.....if Solaris chooses select only one point or a few to attack that means the Solaris in that point of time is acting different from other Solaris in other points which breaks the entire omnipresence stuff.

But this entire assumption requires there to be infinite Solaris in infinte points of time....which is completely wrong.....I have been getting vibes of this bad logic/misunderstanding since last threads....whether this is subconscious or conscious reasoning of Anti side I don't know.

Temporal omnipresence doesn't work that way.....there is only one Solaris....and he exists in every point in time.....he cannot attack "separately" in any point in time.....he only attacks thats it just like you and I do actions...Soalris just happens to be temporally omnipresent so a singular act of attacking will automatically by default yeild an omnipresent attack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DueDate has basically said he lost interest and doesn't quite have any interest debating here anymore.

Also, I actually did clarify things DueDate questioned in the OP. He basically had characters/attacks who are omnipresent across space and time on his mind when he said "They can't be avoided even if they're Immeasurable" as opposed to characters who were omnipresent across time but not space. For him, he just sees, "Omnipresent attacks being evaded is just evidence against the attack not being omnipresent and simple as that." And thus, he finds interpreting that as Immeasurable to be similar to lowballing other feats to make it look like it is consistent. That's basically the short answer of how DueDate sees it and he disagrees for different reasons than I do yes. I only half agree with his reasons; I agree on the Omnipresents are in the long run better to have than Immeasurable speed and interpreting keeping up with Omnipresents as Immeasurable speeds to just be awkward writing or inserting loopholes. But Omnipresent is superior to Immeasurable for different reasons not related to speed.

However, I don't agree that it's impossible for Immeasurable to be incapable of evading attacks from Omnipresents and for other reasons. I agree they cannot avoid attacks that nuke the universe/multiverse unless they either exist outside it or can exit it by traveling to a location outside of all time and space. And even then, characters dodge temporal AoE attacks all the time via RNG systems all the time despite not having Infinite/Immeasurable speed. But attacks that are omnipresent across time, but not space are easily avoidable since it's still not covering all space instantly or faster than instantly. They have even less reason to be Immeasurable than ones Omnipresent across time and space. Not only that, I already said my piece that not all attacks should be assumed temporal AoE. While I can see the laser example; yes Solaris is omnipresent across time and space and the laser comes from his body, but we don't see it vaporize targets before he even fires it and what not or the laser should basically be firing indefinitely if it was truly omnipresent.

Also, I agree it's better said there's only one Solaris who happens to occupy an infinite number of time periods as opposed to their being "An infinite number of Solaris"
But that doesn't really change the function of his survival instincts and attack methods. That's what omnipresence means; it doesn't mean infinite number of yourselves, it means one of you, but you happen to have an infinite number of invisible ears, noses, eyes, hands, ect. There's an infinite number of spots each existing across all time that need to be struck simultaneously in order to damage him, but there's only one Solaris.

And also @Peptocoptr27 no one is "Ignoring you" as I tried to tackle your points in the OP and even listed your statements albeit not in a bullet point but they're in my standard essay format. However, I was up to 4 AM writing it, and I have to go to work again in a few minutes now. But first thing first was the previous thread needed to be closed and refreshed ASAP. Half the people said I should do it sooner, while the other half said I should have done it much later, so I can't really answer for time inconveniences. No one wanted to read a 12 page long thread that was still getting bumped faster than most level headed staff members were able to keep up with. But closing it would at least make it easier for someone to gaze it uninterrupted. And the new thread was here to continue. Also, I didn't want to shut down regular users, which is why I still made this a Content Revision as opposed to a staff discussion. Which a generalize omnipresence vs Immeasurable is some that would typically be staff only. Which other staff aren't ready to tackle until Summer time or so iirc. Also, I do acknowledge your feedback as well as several others brought up some solid or valid points, but I still don't quite find them infallible.

But anyway, I have to go to work for now.

 

[Theuser789]

While I can see the laser example; yes Solaris is omnipresent across time and space and the laser comes from his body, but we don't see it vaporize targets before he even fires it and what not or the laser should basically be firing indefinitely if it was truly omnipresent.

Why would it? There's nothing to vaporize there, your final point would still be wrong even assuming there's only three time periods because the laser is still there at the future but yet you don't see in game a laser just pop up if you stay as a character too long

I honestly only care about this point currently, and I am happy this isn't staff only

 

[Peptocoptr27]

DueDate has basically said he lost interest and doesn't quite have any interest debating here anymore.

Sus timing but alright.

Also, I actually did clarify things DueDate questioned in the OP. He basically had characters/attacks who are omnipresent across space and time on his mind when he said "They can't be avoided even if they're Immeasurable" as opposed to characters who were omnipresent across time but not space.

If what he had in mind was a time AND space omni, doesn't that mean that he thinks immeasurable speed would be enough to dodge attacks that are only omnipresent accross time? Besides, why would he be talking about a space-time omni when that's not what Solaris is?

For him, he just sees, "Omnipresent attacks being evaded is just evidence against the attack not being omnipresent and simple as that."

Solaris' movement is still omnipresent and the same should apply to the attacks. If Solaris doesn't bother to strike in all time periods even though it would be the most convinient and easy thing for him to do, doesn't that prove that the hedgehogs are moving too fast for Solaris to take advantage of their lack of acausality? It would be the only possible explanation as to why Solaris would willingly not make use of his most busted attribute with his attacks. Either he's a complete idiot or the hedgehogs are too fast for him to bother to attack a time and space coordinate the hedgehogs won't be in. Which of these two guesses seems to be the most educated one? Because they're pretty much our only two options if we decide to assume that Solaris' attacks aren't temporally omnipresent like the rest of him. We know that the hedgehogs don't use hax in the fight, so they need to be moving fast enough to not leave behind any past version of themselves or have a future within the space where the fight takes place.

" And thus, he finds interpreting that as Immeasurable to be similar to lowballing other feats to make it look like it is consistent. That's basically the short answer of how DueDate sees it and he disagrees for different reasons than I do yes. I only half agree with his reasons; I agree on the Omnipresents are in the long run better to have than Immeasurable speed and interpreting keeping up with Omnipresents as Immeasurable speeds to just be awkward writing or inserting loopholes. But Omnipresent is superior to Immeasurable for different reasons not related to speed.

Which type of omnipresence is better than immeasurable speed?

However, I don't agree that it's impossible for Immeasurable to be incapable of evading attacks from Omnipresents and for other reasons. I agree they cannot avoid attacks that nuke the universe/multiverse unless they either exist outside it or can exit it by traveling to a location outside of all time and space. And even then, characters dodge temporal AoE attacks all the time via RNG systems all the time despite not having Infinite/Immeasurable speed. But attacks that are omnipresent across time, but not space are easily avoidable since it's still not covering all space instantly or faster than instantly.

It's moments like these where it feels like you do in fact ignore our points. I don't mean to be rude. You probably don't do it on purpose. We've just adressed it all before, including the argument that Solaris would only be immeasurable in perceptions rather than combat or reaction speed. I'm ready to do it AGAIN after I post our summary, because that was the plan.

And also @Peptocoptr27 no one is "Ignoring you" as I tried to tackle your points in the OP and even listed your statements albeit not in a bullet point but they're in my standard essay format. However, I was up to 4 AM writing it, and I have to go to work again in a few minutes now. But first thing first was the previous thread needed to be closed and refreshed ASAP. Half the people said I should do it sooner, while the other half said I should have done it much later, so I can't really answer for time inconveniences. No one wanted to read a 12 page long thread that was still getting bumped faster than most level headed staff members were able to keep up with. But closing it would at least make it easier for someone to gaze it uninterrupted. And the new thread was here to continue. Also, I didn't want to shut down regular users, which is why I still made this a Content Revision as opposed to a staff discussion. Which a generalize omnipresence vs Immeasurable is some that would typically be staff only. Which other staff aren't ready to tackle until Summer time or so iirc. Also, I do acknowledge your feedback as well as several others brought up some solid or valid points, but I still don't quite find them infallible.

Maybe I am getting a little impatient. I'm annoyed that so much of the back and forth we had with him was for nothing because now he's gone and his arguments are irrelevent. Or are they? Who knows?? This would be so much simpler if he stuck around, but no. He decided to bail out at the worst possible time even though he played a key role in the thread becoming what it is. I'm willing to take accountabillity if I also contributed in turning this thread into a complex mess, but at least I made the simple 3 step reset to fix it, and all Dudedate had to do was to start agreeing with you or to convince you to agree with him. You just had to find a common vision, which shouldn't have been that hard since you're in favor of the exact same downgrade! That's why I'm irritated. At him more than anyone else involved, but mostly at the general situation. I really thought this reset through, and it wasn't meant to go this way at all.

But anyway, I have to go to work for now.

So do I. Let's not rush this thread. Let's take it slow and get our priorities in order. See ya later

 

[sanicspood]

This should be interesting.

 

[Duedate8898]

Sus timing but alright.

If what he had in mind was a time AND space omni, doesn't that mean that he thinks immeasurable speed would be enough to dodge attacks that are only omnipresent accross time? Besides, why would he be talking about a space-time omni when that's not what Solaris is?



Solaris' movement is still omnipresent and the same should apply to the attacks. If Solaris doesn't bother to strike in all time periods even though it would be the most convinient and easy thing for him to do, doesn't that prove that the hedgehogs are moving too fast for Solaris to take advantage of their lack of acausality? It would be the only possible explanation as to why Solaris would willingly not make use of his most busted attribute with his attacks. Either he's a complete idiot or the hedgehogs are too fast for him to bother to attack a time and space coordinate the hedgehogs won't be in. Which of these two guesses seems to be the most educated one? Because they're pretty much our only two options if we decide to assume that Solaris' attacks aren't temporally omnipresent like the rest of him. We know that the hedgehogs don't use hax in the fight, so they need to be moving fast enough to not leave behind any past version of themselves or have a future within the space where the fight takes place.

Which type of omnipresence is better than immeasurable speed?

It's moments like these where it feels like you do in fact ignore our points. I don't mean to be rude. You probably don't do it on purpose. We've just adressed it all before, including the argument that Solaris would only be immeasurable in perceptions rather than combat or reaction speed. I'm ready to do it AGAIN after I post our summary, because that was the plan.

Maybe I am getting a little impatient. I'm annoyed that so much of the back and forth we had with him was for nothing because now he's gone and his arguments are irrelevent. Or are they? Who knows?? This would be so much simpler if he stuck around, but no. He decided to bail out at the worst possible time even though he played a key role in the thread becoming what it is. I'm willing to take accountabillity if I also contributed in turning this thread into a complex mess, but at least I made the simple 3 step reset to fix it, and all Dudedate had to do was to start agreeing with you or to convince you to agree with him. You just had to find a common vision, which shouldn't have been that hard since you're in favor of the exact same downgrade! That's why I'm irritated. At him more than anyone else involved, but mostly at the general situation. I really thought this reset through, and it wasn't meant to go this way at all.

So do I. Let's not rush this thread. Let's take it slow and get our priorities in order. See ya later

Just because we agree that something is wrong, we don't have to agree as to why it's wrong. You all kept telling us to get our story together because we contradicted one another but in all honesty, I don't think that really matters because I wasn't really working with DDM on it when I decided to comment on the thread nor am I now. I have my own reasonings for as to why I don't think Immeasurable works, and outlined them as clear as I felt on the last thread. And I don't fully agree with the reasoning DDM put forth and I do think he's misinterpreted my argument. I have my argument and he has his and I don't think we have to agree fully with one another because neither of our arguments really rely on the other to support it. Don't treat the pair of us as arguing the same thing because we're not.

And what more, I left and didn't come back because I know a waste of time when I see one. At this point, I honestly feel like this entire issue is just being dragged out and turned into a battle of attrition, something of which I know I personally can't do very well. So I'll summarize my arguments and say them again here, but I don't really plan to be too active on this thread specifically.

 

[Theuser789]

You all kept telling us to get our story together because we contradicted one another but in all honesty, I don't think that really matters because I wasn't really working with DDM on it when I decided to comment on the thread nor am I now. I have my own reasonings for as to why I don't think Immeasurable works, and outlined them as clear as I felt on the last thread.

This is absolutely wrong in almost every single way and it wouldn't work anywhere else in your life, imagine you are at work, your boss says you have to built a system of communication (or anything really, just an allegory) and then you both make two completely different systems that contradict each other and make the whole process innacurate and just bad. See where I am getting? You cannot have completely different reasons to downgrade a character and have that work, it would just make things inconsistent and it wouldn't work, DDM believes that finite is enough, you believe immesurable isn't enough, DDM leds to a downgrade, yours lead to unknown (unquantifible) speed, you cannot downgrade with such different points

Imagine if the supporting side was divided like you two, one side believes in immesurable Solaris while the other is against but believes in immesurable for other reasons, would you say it would be ok? Obviously not, if you don't want to be involved then don't be, but a downgrade thread can't go with such different points

This isn't just "take away immesurable lol" this is about accuracy, and there's no accuracy when there's two different contradictory arguments

 

[Duedate8898]

This is absolutely wrong in almost every single way and it wouldn't work anywhere else in your life, imagine you are at work, your boss says you have to built a system of communication (or anything really, just an allegory) and then you both make two completely different systems that contradict each other and make the whole process innacurate and just bad. See where I am getting? You cannot have completely different reasons to downgrade a character and have that work, it would just make things inconsistent and it wouldn't work, DDM believes that finite is enough, you believe immesurable isn't enough, DDM leds to a downgrade, yours lead to unknown (unquantifible) speed, you cannot downgrade with such different points

Imagine if the supporting side was divided like you two, one side believes in immesurable Solaris while the other is against but believes in immesurable for other reasons, would you say it would be ok? Obviously not, if you don't want to be involved then don't be, but a downgrade thread can't go with such different points

This isn't just "take away immesurable lol" this is about accuracy, and there's no accuracy when there's two different contradictory arguments

Both lead to a downgrade, they're just different reasons for it. I don't believe speed was ever the problem of battling with Solaris, and some other stuff I'll get into when I make my full post. This isn't a case of two different result, it's a case of two different paths to the same result. A better analogy is your boss telling you and some co-workers to make a system of communication that helps make emails flow better or something else. And then you and said co-workers come up with your own separate systems that get that done just in different ways. And as someone who participated in multiple downgrades and upgrade threads, yes you can have different reasons that lead into the same thing. It's more about what argument people choose to accept.

And yes I would say its okay for your side two have two different reasons for as to why immeasurable works, because people are allowed to agree on something for different reasons. And they're allowed to have their reason stated and looked over even if its not the same as someone else that agrees with them on the result. If I found one of the arguments convincing and the other not, I would choose that one. If neither are convincing for me then I simply don't agree with the side for any of the reasons provided.

You're essentially saying that if I'm going to argue immeasurable then there is only one argument that can be presented for as to why immeasurable doesn't work and why it does work, and that, to me, just ends up limiting both sides and forcing people to agree to things they don't agree with just for the sake of believing the outcome.

So that's how I'm going to do this, and you're just going to have to deal with it.

 

[Theuser789]

You are completely misunderstanding and changing my point, I never said in any of my posts that simply having different arguments was bad and only one us necessary, don't put words in my mouth, but your point contradicted DDM'S and multiple people agreed and saw that it was the case, this isn't just suplementary points, plus your points don't lead to the same result at all, your argument against immesurable was always that it wouldn't help in this case, and this was an unknown feat, DDM'S is that finite speed is enough, and dodging the attacks are possible

Contradictory arguments aren't ok, suplementary are, this was the point you misconstructed in my previous post and made your new one, don't pull the experience card btw, I was in this wikia before you and participated in debates, contradictory arguments were never accepted, either one was rejected or both, never neither

There's 2 ways this is can end quickly

Either you keep your point, debate with DDM in private the contradictory parts, then make an actual suplementary point that can work in the actual downgrade

Or you just stop commenting, and let DDM'S be the main point, while your contradictory arguments are ignored by the opposition, which is what is happening in the OP, your choice

 

[ShakeResounding]

"Both completely different arguments lead to the same result so it's fine to have those major differences because why not?"

Yet this wouldn't work for an upgrade.

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm not going to bother arguing semantics with you either, you can choose to believe whatever you want. As I said, I'm going to provide why I don't believe immeasurable works and defend it. My arguments haven't been for you or really the supporters for immeasurable for a while now. It's merely for others who don't know what side they're going to go. So feel free to ignore them if you so wish.

"Both completely different arguments lead to the same result so it's fine to have those major differences because why not?"

This wouldn't work for an upgrade though, now would it?

And yes it would because in the end, one of those arguments would be chosen as the reason while the other isn't. Simple as that.

 

[Theuser789]

And yes it would because in the end, one of those arguments would be chosen as the reason while the other isn't. Simple as that.

And that's literally what we want, read my two options, option 2 was this

 

[Duedate8898]

I didn't mean between the two of us in private, I meant for anyone who reads the thread here.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I didn't mean between the two of us in private, I meant for anyone who reads the thread here.

Ok then. We'll stay out of it while you debate with each other on this thread as planned. I won't interrupt. The thing is, we have to do this one step at a time. Or else this is gonna turn into a 3-way free for all between us, you and DarkDragon.

 

[AKM sama]

This is not Team A vs Team B where one team is pro-downgrade and another is against-downgrade. This is a discussion and everyone is allowed to have their arguments, whichever makes more sense is the better argument. Why would Duedate need to debate DDM privately? This is an open discussion as it should be. If anybody else comes in with completely different reasons for downgrade or upgrade, they wouldn't need to debate someone in private, they'd be able to voice their opinions on this thread.

Soalris just happens to be temporally omnipresent so a singular act of attacking will automatically by default yeild an omnipresent attack.

And yet we don't see him attacking different points in space? He is only ever focused on one hedgehog when he's actually fighting three at the same time, meaning his attacks should be aimed at three different directions.

And even if we assume that he is attacking in all points of time simultaneously, wouldn't the hedgehogs in that time period be able to move out of the way?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

And yet we don't see him attacking different points in space?

Pls clarify and elaborate......I don't understand what you expect of Solaris here....

Though to answer it anyway with how I interpreted this question.......we only ever observe the battle through perspective of one hedgehog at a time and video limitations are also a thing so thats why we are strictly relying on lore as much as possible...it was already decided that gameplay visuals were no way to doubt the context of the fight itself due to it being unfair......the specific fight gameplay is more or less apocryphal representation of the real lore battle anyway....

He is only ever focused on one hedgehog when he's actually fighting three at the same time, meaning his attacks should be aimed at three different directions.

Its not as complicated as it looks.....even in a normal 1v3 fight you can only usually concentrate on a single target unless you have many eyes and many arms to see and attack all 3 simultaneously.

We can even observe Solaris rotate his body to switch targets....

It doesn't really matter because Solaris perceives all 3 hedgehogs simultaneously even with thier locations being in different points in time and space.

The way the battle is protrayed is that Sonic is in 12 o'Clock position to Solaris in present, Shadow is somewhere on the 9 o'clock in the past and Silver is in future at 3 o'clock w.r.t Solaris....but to Solaris it might as well be same time period.....this is one of the reasons and among many others I believe that saying Solaris is bound by passage of conventional time is fallacious.....but I will elaborate on this when the time comes not now.

And even if we assume that he is attacking in all points of time simultaneously, wouldn't the hedgehogs in that time period be able to move out of the way?

This is not an assumption that he attacks all points simultaneously.....its by default standard that his physiology has to follow....it is more extraordinary to doubt this temporal omnipresence is faulty actually when we have no proof actually.....especially when context and statements by knowledgeables like Dr Robotnik about Solaris hold more validity.....especially considering Solaris is Mephiles who is very smart and calculative.

As far as dodging the attacks.....the attacks are not spatially omnipresent only temporally, you can always move into a safe zone to avoid it....thats why Sonic and co. get immeasurable speed in the first place , though it is more complicated process to explain.....I mean isn't that why you guys created the downgrade thread because the explanation was not found satisfactory and that is why we are defending it by writing pseudo scientific essays here...

 

[AKM sama]

the specific fight gameplay is more or less apocryphal representation of the real lore battle anyway....

Fine, then we don't use gameplay visuals of the lasers as an argument. And I again say, that an attack of a temporally omnipresent character does not have to be temporally omnipresent. A temporally omnipresent character choosing to attack at one time period doesn't negate his temporal omnipresence, just like I, a 3-D being, can choose to attack any one 3-D point at a time while still being 3-D.

the attacks are not spatially omnipresent only temporally, you can always move into a safe zone to avoid it....thats why Sonic and co. get immeasurable speed in the first place , though it is more complicated process to explain

I think the argument is that the present Sonic is able to dodge attacks in the past, while ignoring that the past Sonic could also have dodged them, which wouldn't require the former to happen in that case.

 

[Theuser789]

Solaris doesn't choose a time period to attack even in gameplay, if you switch characters he is still attacking, even though using your logic he wouldn't, since the hedgehogs aren't stuck in three time periods obviously Solaris is attacking at all time, we can't just cherrypick

I think the argument is that the present Sonic is able to dodge attacks in the past, while ignoring that the past Sonic could also have dodged them, which wouldn't require the former to happen in that case.

The argument is that Sonic can dodge attacks that are travelling through time, Sonic isn't show to just dodge in the past, this wouldn't even work anyways because using your logic Sonic would have to move at the same time in almost all time periods, plus obviously there would be a time he would be busy and get hit, it simply doesn't work

Fine, then we don't use gameplay visuals of the lasers as an argument

No, this isn't his point and don't manipulate it, the lasers are a counter argument against him only attacking in one time, what he meant about gameplay not being the main source is the fact 06 treats the battle as turn based because you can't play as multiple characters, so usualy it's just 1v1, which isn't the case, however Solaris's actual attacks have no reason to be wrong, and if we excluded everything from gameplay then it's just headcanon, and me saying Sonic can travel from the past to the future to hit Solaris with his Arrow of Light with sheer speed would be valid and you wouldn't be able to debunk it

Literally all he meant is that we can't expect the gameplay to represent exactly what we want out of immesurable speed because of technical limitations, not that everything in gameplay is fake

This is not Team A vs Team B where one team is pro-downgrade and another is against-downgrade. This is a discussion and everyone is allowed to have their arguments, whichever makes more sense is the better argument. Why would Duedate need to debate DDM privately? This is an open discussion as it should be. If anybody else comes in with completely different reasons for downgrade or upgrade, they wouldn't need to debate someone in private, they'd be able to voice their opinions on this thread.

My apologies if my intentions were unclear, when I said they could debate in private I meant in order to keep this thread focused, but they can indeed voice it here if they want

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Fine, then we don't use gameplay visuals of the lasers as an argument.

I was just trying to say that gameplay is technically limited and can only show limited aspects of battle compared to the real battle.....its inferior not that it is wrong.....@Theuser786 handled it for me.

And I again say, that an attack of a temporally omnipresent character does not have to be temporally omnipresent.

No actually, its impossible is what I am saying.

Let me give you several examples...

1)Imagine if there is a Temporally Omnipresent Grenade.....if it explodes it would be omnipresent, the heat blast, smoke, shockwaves and shrapnels everything will be omnipresent.....

I know a grenade is not sentient and cannot chose actions for itself, but I wanted display that all obects and actions pertaining to temporal omni's are also temporally omni by default.

2) let's take a sentient organism as next example for fairness.....but with a catch....lets make it ultra fair......lets use a being with the most basic, simpler ,unsophisticated ,primal instincts .....

Lets use Spitting Cobra as next example....say that there exists a Spitting Cobra which is temporally omnipresent.

If it decides to spit venom at it's prey, from the biological process of spitting to the spit itself would be temporally omnipresent regardless of the target's nature.....for the simple reason that it is not knowledgeable in the mechanics of space-time and such.....it does not have the sophiscation nor the motive to attack singular point in time( if it was even possible in the first place which it is not).....it would just spit as it would normally do, being temporally omnipresent isn't going to change its behaviour, it's not going to become smart or dumb.

3) Now lets move on to a more sophisticated lifeform with great intelligence, tact and fighting capability.
Solaris
Lets say Solaris wants to attack singular point in time for some weird, out of character reason especially in a fight.
He has some motive whatever the hell it is.....

Now how would he go about it?? Is there some quirk to temporal omnipresence that allows this or is its physiology something different from default and normal temporal omnipresent entities or is there some special ability involved??
How would such an impossiblity become a possibility?? Explain it to me....pls. Just saying that he can do that is not enough.

Now assume that it is possible somehow via some bizzare unexplained reason just cuz some "reasons" that Solaris is able to that.....that would helluva deviate from norm of the default properties of temporal omnipresence. Either there is something special about that particular entity or there is some fault in that entity......depending on the reason.

Now even ignoring this, lets get down to motives shall we.....
Tell me why would Solaris would go out of his way to do temporally singular attacks when he can do temporally omnipresent attacks by default even without thinking??
What is his motive behind doing such inferior attacks in the first place?? Not only is it out of character but also unnecessary.

Tldr;
1) Temporally Singular attacks are impossible to perform for a normal, default temporally omnipresent characters.
You have to explain how it is possible even for normal temporal omnipresent entities if you make an extraordinary claim like that....
2) If they can then it is definitely not normal, something is special or faulty, you would have to provide proof of such quirkiness/defect and explain it.
3) If you can prove above claims You would have to provide proof such strong motives to exist as a justification for temporally singular attacks to happen instead of default temporally omnipresent attacks.

A temporally omnipresent character choosing to attack at one time period doesn't negate his temporal omnipresence, just like I, a 3-D being, can choose to attack any one 3-D point at a time while still being 3-D.

I don't know why you are giving equivalence of dimensionality for omnipresence......its a very bad equivalence.
No one is claiming such things?? Solaris isn't going to become 2D from 3D if he does somehow attack singular point in time.

 

[Greenshifter]

just like I, a 3-D being, can choose to attack any one 3-D point at a time while still being 3-D.

Solaris is infinitely long in the 4th dimension so comparing it to us is a false equivalence.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

This is not Team A vs Team B where one team is pro-downgrade and another is against-downgrade. This is a discussion and everyone is allowed to have their arguments, whichever makes more sense is the better argument.

Yeah, but what's stopping them from debating with each other first (until the most logical argument between them wins) and then resume the conversation? If we don't do that, what's gonna happen is that we're gonna have ro respond to completely different sets of contradicatry arguments, which is gonna make things infinitely more confusing. You say it's not a team A vs Team B scenario, but why shouldn't it be? Among other things, that was the point of the reset: To have the arguments from BOTH SIDES compiled in one place and take it from here. Instead, what we're about to do is have a team A vs Team B vs Team C scenario. How is that better?

Why would Duedate need to debate DDM privately? This is an open discussion as it should be. If anybody else comes in with completely different reasons for downgrade or upgrade, they wouldn't need to debate someone in private, they'd be able to voice their opinions on this thread.

I agree. This thread is the best place to do it now that the old thread is dead

 

[MysticMania]

If you don't mind me asking, AKM, could you please explain how a temporally omnipresent being can choose to take action in only 1 specific point in time, while not doing so in other time periods.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If you don't mind me asking, AKM, could you please explain how a temporally omnipresent being can choose to take action in only 1 specific point in time, while not doing so in other time periods.

The million dollar question......

 

[Arcker123]

Gonna bump....