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Minor Whis speed fix.

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Sorry if I sound stupid but what's a sandbox? and which category? like general discussion or calc group where?
 
I could make a scaling chain for sure. Or evaluate one. But I need to know which multipliers are accepted by the wiki first to include them, and which ones are to be excluded.

Side note, personally I feel it makes no sense to only use the 50x multiplier during Namek saga and then ditch it. By that logic SSJ Goku during Trunks arc is much slower than SSJ Goku or 100% Frieza on Namek since the multiplier disappears lol. No significant indication that the 50x multiplier disappears.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
Side note, personally I feel it makes no sense to only use the 50x multiplier during Namek saga and then ditch it. By that logic SSJ Goku during Trunks arc is much slower than SSJ Goku or 100% Frieza on Namek since the multiplier disappears lol. No significant indication that the 50x multiplier disappears.
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No one ever said that the multiplier disappears, just that the multiplier increases to an even bigger number due to Goku's training, which is why it becomes unquantifiable.

Again, don't go with the scaling chain I came up with, it's grossly incomplete, incredibly low-balled and should only serve as a foundation for the experts to build on the appropriate multipliers just in case.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I could make a scaling chain for sure. Or evaluate one. But I need to know which multipliers are accepted by the wiki first to include them, and which ones are to be excluded.

Side note, personally I feel it makes no sense to only use the 50x multiplier during Namek saga and then ditch it. By that logic SSJ Goku during Trunks arc is much slower than SSJ Goku or 100% Frieza on Namek since the multiplier disappears lol. No significant indication that the 50x multiplier disappears.
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I agree, I use SSJ/rose= 20x, SSG = at least 20x, blue = 400x, SSBE/SSBKK20 = 8000x
 
SSJRyu1 said:
Side note, personally I feel it makes no sense to only use the 50x multiplier during Namek saga and then ditch it.
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Well, by the time of the HBTC (Room of Spirit and Time) during late Cell Saga, SSJ1 has 4 different grades. Assuming everyone has Grade 4 of SSJ. That means they have a multiplier above 50x. Some say the SSJ1 Gr4 multiplier goes as high as 75x Base Form, which is why SSJ2 is considered Grade 5 of SSJ, but that's fan headcanon, as SSJ2 is its own form and has a multiplier of 100x (or 50x then 2x, or if your Grade 4, 75x then 2x, which is kind of asinine).
 
@KLOL506 OK, so your saying we still apply 50x for SSJ, but not zenkais, SSJ2 etc for speed? So it is still fine to apply the initial SSJ multiplier to base form correct?
 
So here is my take at least, based on the current wiki standards.

Obvious ones that should be used

SSJ = 50x multiplier (based on Kaioken and showings from Frieza saga)
SSJ2, SSJ3 = 8x multiplier (although the wiki wont use it, so I won't apply it)
SSJG, UI (sign), MUI, limit breaks in ToP, zenkais, training (for the most part) = unquantifiable increases in speed
SSJB kkx10/20 = 10/20x multiplier (it's Kaioken so obvious one)


Realistic additions I Recommend

SSJB >=50x multiplier (said to be a SSJG that transforms into a SSJ, so a reasonable conclusion imo, although some people might be ultra anal and say its unquantifiable)

Goku's Increase from u6 tournament to his second fight with Hit > 10x multiplier (Is heavily implied to be superior to his old SSJB KKx10 self since he could barely keep up with Hit using SSJB KKx10 by the end of their first battle, yet defeated a stronger Hit, which is stated, with just SSJB in their second fight.

I would say these are the multipliers which I can think of off the top of my head that are explicitly speed related and should be applied even to a conservative calc.

Da calc

These equate to SSJB KKx20 Goku beginning of ToP being far over 500,000x faster than his SSJG BoG self, or "At least 98 sextillion times ftl, likely far higher" since much of his buffs are huge, but unquantifiable.
 
Multipliers are bad. BoS speed calc is about 1/3 of Whis’s peak, but nobody comes close to Whis in speed, even UI Goku. Septillion c Goku when someone who blitzes him isn’t even quintillions is bad.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Multipliers are bad. BoS speed calc is about 1/3 of Whis’s peak, but nobody comes close to Whis in speed, even UI Goku. Septillion c Goku when someone who blitzes him isn’t even quintillions is bad.
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Doesnt Whis have a feat where he crosses the universe in like, a literal second?
The bos speed calc is most certainly not Whis' peak.

Though I do agree that multipliers are one thing but using like, the multiplier ad infinitum is kinda pushing it.
 
That’s the feat I’m taking about. Where he crosses the universe in like ten seconds. It was like 400 quad c. Which is about 5x the BoS Calc. And it was the fastest Whis has ever gone, per his own words. Which is a prime example of why lolmultipliers should’ve been in the toilet years ago. Kaio Ken, let alone Super Saiyan, would make BoS Goku able to blitz Whis.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
That’s the feat I’m taking about. Where he crosses the universe in like ten seconds. It was like 400 quad c. Which is about 5x the BoS Calc. And it was the fastest Whis has ever gone, per his own words. Which is a prime example of why lolmultipliers should’ve been in the toilet years ago.
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If that's the case, well that could be an issue.

Though multipliers are fine if they're consistent, in this case though, if a god tier speed wise has a feat and it's literally like a million times less and it's explicitly his best, that's kinda a red flag.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
That’s the feat I’m taking about. Where he crosses the universe in like ten seconds. It was like 400 quad c. Which is about 5x the BoS Calc. And it was the fastest Whis has ever gone, per his own words. Which is a prime example of why lolmultipliers should’ve been in the toilet years ago. Kaio Ken, let alone Super Saiyan, would make BoS Goku able to blitz Whis.
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The calc is 500 quadrillion c actually (Whis's speed calc, 498 quadrillion c on the blog) but yeah, it's a pretty big issue. Even if we assume that Goku is half that of a serious Beerus (Who being 3/4 that of Whis would be 375 quadrillion c, and 375/2 equals 187.5 which lines up correctly and is consistent enough with the explosion calc), Kaio-Ken alone puts a massive wrench in the scaling as a whole.

TBH this was actually an issue that existed looooooooooong before SSJRyu1 made the calc so I doubt simply putting the explosion calc as a combat speed maneuver would do anything to help since even if Goku scales to half of a serious Beerus's traveling speed Kaio-Ken on its own amping all stats is a severe red flag right out of the gate, and I'm not even considering to bring up normal SSJ forms, SSG or SSB.
 
Unless that bos speed feat only applies to a serious Beerus (And I mean an actual serious one, not the Beerus who was holding back drastically against Goku) I see no way that this wouldnt make the scaling completely ******.
 
Chariot190 said:
Unless that bos speed feat only applies to a serious Beerus, I see no way that this wouldnt make the scaling completely ******.
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Even if it applies to a serious Beerus the scaling is ****** either way because SSB and SSB Kaio-Ken. And this doesn't even take into account that Goku got serious amps in the later arcs via training, new forms, zenkais and all of it stacked on top to make a massive combo multiplier.
 
KLOL506 said:
Even if it applies to a serious Beerus the scaling is ****** either way because SSB and SSB Kaio-Ken.
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Isn't a serious Beerus on par with UI3 Goku? (Based on the promotional pamphlet) Or around there?
 
Chariot190 said:
Isn't a serious Beerus on par with UI3 Goku? (Based on the promotional pamphlet) Or around there?
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I think so, but Goku easily kept up with Beerus in SSJ1 form alone, and IIRC serious Beerus is around 375 quadrillion c via the 3/4 statement, so I'd say that 187-196-ish quadrillion c is prolly him being half serious.
 
What I'm saying is, what if Beerus, when he negated the blast, and thus reacted to it, was actually using his full speed. As in, he was serious.

Of course SSJ1 Goku reacted to and fought Beerus in BoG's Arc, but Beerus was holding back, heavily. I wouldn't even say half serious, he was holding back by thousands of times because Beerus when serious is around Jiren/UI3 level. And, well obviously BoG SSJ1 Goku isn't even half of that of UI3 or casual Jiren, using the very same multipliers above, we know them to be thousands and thousands of times weaker, and thus slower.

The 3/4th statement I'm unsure if that's an accurate reflection of Beerus' true speed, just him being a bit annoyed and impatient.

Well either way, the speed multipliers using the BoS Beerus feat and applying that to BoS Goku leads to ludicrously inflated and contradictory results. Though if the BoS feat only applies to a legit serious Beerus, it actually isn't so bad given only MUI Goku and Limit Break Jiren+Angels are above that scaling wise iirc, and if Whis' best known feat is around 5x that, the scaling isnt as ****** anymore.
 
What was Goku and Beerus' speed before the energy feat? Because we're looking at like a 500,000x speed boost, if the original feat comes close to this with these multipliers then it could be ok. But at the moment, applying that huge a jump onto a feat that's only like 5x that of the god speed feat is extremely suspect if it truly does scale to early Goku and not just a peak Beerus. I'd have to disagree hard in that case.
 
Whis speed feat is not a good argument for it being contradictory. First off its comparing travel speed to combat speed, so they can be different. Second off its questionable if Whis was actually serious about that being his fastest given he didn't have to power up or seem fatigued at all after, and it was not a serious situation either to begin with. Third of all, the Whis speed calc assumes 1 second for the timeframe, it could have been MUCH less, we just didn't know the exact timeframe so 1 sec was given as low ball. So it doesn't even contradict anything directly in the first place as Whis could be far faster, its questionable it was his peak and it is comparing travel and combat speed which can be different.

I see no issue with applying the multipliers as I outlined for the reasoning I outlined as a lowball for the increases in speed they get during Super.
 
One, he said it's the fastest he's ever gone. Period. There's no reason to assume he was just talking about travel speed, and Whis has fought seriously against Grand Priest, so he can very much compare the speed he used then to the speed now.. Two, there's no reason to assume Whis was lying just to inflate values. He had no reason to lie, and fatigue doesn't exactly matter. Whis might not have a sense of stamina even if he has a limit, for all we know. Three, no way in heck is one second a lowball. And four, literally all but one of DBS's best speed feats are travel based. The idea of combat speed being > travel speed never existed for DB, let alone DBS. It's a super common misconception simply because of how their fights are animated.
 
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Even if we assume that their combat speed is greater than their travel speed, Kaio-Ken in Goku's base state alone would absolutely demolish Whis's fastest obtainable travel speed as Kaio-Ken amplifies all stats and all forms of speed. I brought this issue up months ago (Prolly a year or two ago IIRC) and I was told that this was why SSB KKx10 and KKx20 were unquantifiable speed boosts but speed boosts nonetheless. So in the end it really doesn't matter, scaling would get ****** regardless unless there's hard concrete evidence to assume that Beerus was super serious during the dodging of the explosion, which I very much doubt so, because even with him being superior to UI3 Goku, it should be noted that Beerus's official description on the website shows him being capable of destroying the universe with minimal effort so it should be correct to assume that its speed would be of little concern to him, not to mention that he isn't equal to BoS Goku w/ UI3, but rather he is equal to ToP Goku with all the zenkais, training and shit using UI3.
 
But yes, Cal does have a good point, combat speed and travel speed have never been shown to be separate in DB as a whole, UI as a whole is a blatant example of this. Even if they were, well, read my post above.

And no, IIRC, Whis's 500 quadrillion c value doesn't assume 1 second, it's 10 seconds worth of cinematic timeframe.
 
First off its comparing travel speed to combat speed, so they can be different
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They can be, but not when it's the absolute best speed feat in the verse done with a special technique that's only scaling to them in the first place because Whis can somehow react and make turns while doing it.

the Whis speed calc assumes 1 second for the timeframe
Click to expand...

It assumes 10 seconds, but even with one second, it would still **** the scaling.
Hell it could be 1/100th of a second and it'd still be suspect. Though we could just like, take the actual timeframe it took him to get there and use that? It was only a few seconds tops but at the same time it also wasn't some extremely low end value of like 1/100000+ second, which is what it would need to be to not **** the scaling.

I don't think you realize, you're arguing for like a 500,000x multiplier, if not way more, when the absolute best speed feat in the verse, by a god tier, who said he never went that fast before, is like 100000 less then the end result. Like, that's a tad sus dude. Even if we use the multipliers it'd end up with the speed being an outlier for the verse so either way.

The only way the multipliers would be legit is if the energy ball feat only applied to a peak Beerus who Goku doesnt even get close to untill UI gets whipped out at the end of Super, not a Goku at the start of Super which would inflate the speeds like 100,000x beyond the best speed feat by a literal god tier.
 
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Chariot190 said:
The only way the multipliers would be legit is if the energy ball feat only applied to a peak Beerus who Goku doesnt even get close to untill UI gets whipped out at the end of Super, not a Goku at the start of Super which would inflate the speeds like 100,000x beyond the best speed feat by a literal god tier.
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Doubt it, only time Beerus would be that serious is if someone truly up and UI'd him in the face as seen in the ToP arc, even his website bio outright states that he could destroy the universe with little hindrance, so the speed of the explosion being that fast would almost be a non-issue for him. At best we can assume that he is only half serious. Which sorta lessens the blow of the scaling being ****** up, but again, with how big the zenkai boosts and training boosts get within two arcs alone, even if you tried downscaling Goku to being billions to trillions of time FTL, it wouldn't take him long to reach Whis's level and he wouldn't even have to tap into UI.
 
Whis moving as fast as he has ever gone is honestly questionable imo given he shows no fatigue and it is a non serious situation, but I don't have a direct contradictory statement to it so, meh.

We have no idea how long he actually took. 10 sec is a complete guess that was made to give the feat a number, a low ball. It could have been 1 sec, 1 millisecond, 1 nanosecond, we have no idea. So its not contradictory as a feat unless you apply a randomly guessed timeframe for Whis's feat, which is not canon or official content, it is fan made, and would actually be contradicted by the canonically given multipliers and the BoG feat. So I don't agree, Whis feat is still not sufficient proof to say its contradictory since the timeframe for his feat is completely guessed to get a low ball value.

Also as @KLOL506 said, it doesn't matter how you scale it, The current Whis feat with the 10 sec timeframe guess gets beat by even a kaiokenx20 multiplier. So logically if you want to make it consistent, Whis performed that feat faster than 1 sec if he was at full speed, or its just a lower end feat dwarfed by the BoG feat and the following multipliers.

Either way, I was asked to give a realistic set of speed multipliers for DBS after the BoG feat. So I did that. Believe it or not the estimate could be alot higher if I tried to factor in more multipliers, but I stuck with the Solid super obvious and outright stated ones. It's not my fault if it contradicts a fan made speed calc with a guessed timeframe for Whis XD
 
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KLOL506 said:
Doubt it, only time Beerus would be that serious is if someone truly up and UI'd him in the face as seen in the ToP arc, even his website bio outright states that he could destroy the universe with little hindrance, so the speed of the explosion being that fast would almost be a non-issue for him. At best we can assume that he is only half serious. Which sorta lessens the blow of the scaling being ****** up, but again, with how big the zenkai boosts and training boosts get within two arcs alone, even if you tried downscaling Goku to being billions to trillions of time FTL, it wouldn't take him long to reach Whis's level and he wouldn't even have to tap into UI.
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I said that'd be the only way, never said he was actually 100% serious.
 
I have literally addressed the 498 quad whis thing in the initial post... why were you still talking about it?
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Multipliers are bad. BoS speed calc is about 1/3 of Whis’s peak, but nobody comes close to Whis in speed, even UI Goku. Septillion c Goku when someone who blitzes him isn’t even quintillions is bad.
Click to expand...
i've never gone so fast before =/= i can't go any faster

he just never felt the need to , and that calc has many issues btw , it assumes whis took off the moment beerus smelled the food and used a 10 sec timeframe which should count as a low end
 
Whis only say that he never moved so fast before, that doesn't necessarely means that he was using his max speed, he didn't show any signs of extreme fatigue that suggest that he was going all out.

Even assuming it was the case, this can be just another example of a Top Tiers having a not particually impressive feat while far inferior characters have dispay similar if not superior feats in comparation.

Just like if you compare Gotenks travelling across the world in a few seconds (Sub-Relativistic) with Piccolo's Moon busting Ki blast (Relativistic+).

So it wrong to say that either Beerus was using his full power only for nullify the universal busting explosion (when Whis did conferm that he was holding back during the entire fight), or worse that it is some kind of outlier.
 
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Cal and SSJRyu1 both make good points above, but they are contradictory.

Should we simply accept that our estimation for the time frame of Whis' speed feat may be flawed and use Goku's multipliers as a basis for him as well, or skip using multipliers altogether? The former seems like the less bad option to me, but constructive suggestions for solutions would be welcome.
 
Antvasima said:
Cal and SSJRyu1 both make good points above, but they are contradictory.

Should we simply accept that our estimation for the time frame of Whis' speed feat may be flawed and use Goku's multipliers as a basis for him as well, or skip using multipliers altogether? The former seems like the less bad option to me, but constructive suggestions for solutions would be welcome.
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i agree with ant here , simply scaling whis to goku's max speed with multipliers seems reasonable , or maybe just differentiate between his travel and combat speed ?

smtg like MFTL+ travel speed ( can travel at at least " insert whatever value is accepted " ) | MFTL+ reaction speed ( should be faster than goku at his peak " insert whatever value is accepted post multipliers " )
 
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Antvasima said:
@AKM sama @Elizhaa @SSJRyu1 @AkuAkuAkuma @The_real_cal_howard @Theglassman12 @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian @LuckyEmile @Antoniofer @EMagoIorSouI @EmperorRorepme @Crabwhale @KingEzran @ArgosaxDespair

The following calculation has been accepted, which gives a significant upgrade to the speed levels of Dragon Ball characters, but we need help to figure out proper scaling, and with properly applying the changes as well.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SSJRyu1/BoG_Universal_energy_ball_speed_feat
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, scaling with Dragon Ball is not my forte. Especially when you have so many characters through about 4 arcs and a movie, which have different scaling each arc. So I don't see myself of being too much assistance here. 😔
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Whis should be scaled to goku's accepted speed something along the lines of "MFTL+ (Far higher than goku who is this fast)" but you should also mention his travel speed to be different.
Click to expand...
Would this be an acceptable solution for the rest of you, in lack of better options?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Whis should be scaled to goku's accepted speed something along the lines of "MFTL+ (Far higher than goku who is this fast)" but you should also mention his travel speed to be different.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that won't work, because we don't know what Goku's accurate travelling speed is, even if the current calc is treated as MFTL+.

Again, remember, the current explosion calc is 2/5 that of Whis's full speed (Whis being 500 quadrillion c). Even assuming the explosion calc is combat speed, it still is fair to assume that Beerus being 3/4 of Whis while being serious (375 quadrillion c), would at the very least be half as fast as his serious self when he holds back (187.5 quadrillion c), to which Goku undeniably scales with his transformations (This'd be consistent with the explosion calc which is 196 quadrillion c), not to mention what I already stated about Beerus's bio stating he'd easily be able to nuke the universe without being bothered much and how the explosion speed would also be a non-issue and whatnot. And stacking up the SSJ multipliers and KK multipliers (Which multiply all stats) would undeniably cause Goku's travel speed to skyrocket well beyond Whis's travel speed without even having to go SSG or SSB.

And like Cal said, DB has never shown any separation between travel speed and combat speed, as DB characters have repeatedly been shown to be able to keep up with their own attacks, with Ultra Instinct being blatant proof of that.
 
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Fluffy means that we should simply scale Whis as having far higher combat speed than Goku's/Beerus' new calculation, but rate his flight speed separately.
 
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