Dovahkiin fights Za Player

[Keeweed]

Bend will mind controls people and other things, Miraak’s plan was to mind control people, and he is a Dovahkiin. There is zero reason to assume he didn’t use bend will. He could have just used the first word of power because nobody else had that shout at the time and when the Dovahkiin gets his hands on the shout he counteracts Miraak’s. Miraak is the same person who one shot you but then immediately let you live despite you being literally the only thing that could get in the way of his plans.

All those spells work differently and are made to last long. You won’t want levitation to only last a couple seconds cause you would fall to your death. Meanwhile Mora’s Grasp is meant to get an enemy off you for a limited amount of time so you can heal up and proceed to beat the crap out of them when they return. It coming from a more powerful source means literally nothing. For example in DND a artifact from a 2-A god can only summon like 5 9-B skeletons while finger of death (a basic spell) can slowly make an army of undead (by killing people one at a time).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Not ignored it just can’t be applied in this situation because there is no proof for either claim.

That's not how it works. For the wiki specifically, we go with what is the least generous assumption.

Otherwise, Occam's Razor is still a thing, you need to actively assume it has no time limit.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Alteration, Alchemy, Restoration and illusion all have time limits on spells that cannot be permanent by nature without being mentioned.

And, no, assuming it's more than 24 is baseless also. You cannot compare apples to oranges and claim that since another spell can make someone invisible for a day, a spell that keeps someone in-between two planes of existence while frozen and intangible to both planes will be the same.

Not baseless at all. Both of those spells are just spells that are activated and maintained for a set or maybe a permanent amount of time. This is a distinction that can be made through observation. There are spells that need constant concentration, and there are spells that needs only to be activated once and will remain active for a set amount of time. The mechanic is both orange, but the effects are apples and oranges.

 

[Keeweed]

“There are spells that need constant concentration, and there are spells that needs only to be activated once and will remain active for a set amount of time. The mechanic is both orange, but the effects are apples and oranges.”

Ok so Mora Grasp actives, sends someone away for a limited amount of time, and then brings them back.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The effects of the spells are completely different, the target if the spells is different as well. It absolutely is different to make one's skin harder or to let one's lungs breathe water, and to keep someone in-between planes.

You need proof that all temporary spells are equal in duration, which is something you most certainly won't find neither in-game or in-lore.

 

[00potato]

Is it me or does every Elder Scrolls thread turn into a lore debate?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Is it me or does every Elder Scrolls thread turn into a lore debate?

More like people

Game mechanics >>>> lore

vs

lore >>>>game mechanics

 

[Keeweed]

More like people

Game mechanics >>>> lore

vs

lore >>>>game mechanics

This isn’t a gameplay mechanic. A gameplay mechanic is something like a video game inventor or the Dovahkiin’s dragon riding mechanics.

A plain description of a power is not a gameplay mechanic. A spell’s description saying it has a time limit means that speed has a time limit unless contradicted by the story. Which wouldn’t be a gameplay mechanic, just a contradiction with the story taking priority.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Bend will mind controls people and other things, Miraak’s plan was to mind control people, and he is a Dovahkiin. There is zero reason to assume he didn’t use bend will. He could have just used the first word of power because nobody else had that shout at the time and when the Dovahkiin gets his hands on the shout he counteracts Miraak’s. Miraak is the same person who one shot you but then immediately let you live despite you being literally the only thing that could get in the way of his plans.

All those spells work differently and are made to last long. You won’t want levitation to only last a couple seconds cause you would fall to your death. Meanwhile Mora’s Grasp is meant to get an enemy off you for a limited amount of time so you can heal up and proceed to beat the crap out of them when they return. It coming from a more powerful source means literally nothing. For example in DND a artifact from a 2-A god can only summon like 5 9-B skeletons while finger of death (a basic spell) can slowly make an army of undead (by killing people one at a time).

Zero reason? I literally just mentioned the reason why it can't be bend will. Miraak's thu'um are far stronger than the Dovahkiin's and there should be no way for the Dovahkiin to overpowered his. And why would he used the weaker version of bend will? Miraak is arrogant, but not stupid. Why would he deliberately put a hole in his plan?

Those are just your headcanon and your interpretation of what the spells purposes are meant to be. I can just also make an interpretation, and that will be as valid as what you are saying right now.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

The effects of the spells are completely different, the target if the spells is different as well. It absolutely is different to make one's skin harder or to let one's lungs breathe water, and to keep someone in-between planes.

You need proof that all temporary spells are equal in duration, which is something you most certainly won't find neither in-game or in-lore.

Literally what I said. The effect is different, but the mechanic is the same.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

This isn’t a gameplay mechanic. A gameplay mechanic is something like a video game inventor or the Dovahkiin’s dragon riding mechanics.

A plain description of a power is not a gameplay mechanic. A spell’s description saying it has a time limit means that speed has a time limit unless contradicted by the story. Which wouldn’t be a gameplay mechanic, just a contradiction with the story taking priority.

Exept that time limits as said above belong to a single school not all

 

[Keeweed]

“Why would he deliberately put a hole in his plan?”

For the same reason he deliberately put a hole in his plan by letting the Dovahkiin live in the first place. He’s arrogant as hell and from his prospective his plan couldn’t fail (the Dovahkiin needed Mora to break the plan in two)

Miraak is a Dovahkiin, he primarily focuses on shouts, he has never shown a mind control spell, he has shown a mind control shout, and he is arrogant. Everything points to it being bend will.

The Dovahkiin couldn’t even properly get all of bend will he had to make a deal with Mora, meaning Miraak didn’t have a reason to use the full might of bend will.

 

[Keeweed]

Exept that time limits as said above belong to a single school not all

No there plenty of spells a time limit has to be there. Potions definitely don’t last forever and that’s alchemy. Many alternation spells won’t make since if they lasted forever like oakflesh. One of the master mages literally had a problem with an invisibility spell because he couldn’t get it too end.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

“Why would he deliberately put a hole in his plan?”

For the same reason he deliberately put a hole in his plan by letting the Dovahkiin live in the first place.

Miraak is a Dovahkiin, he primarily focuses on shouts, he has never shown a mind control spell, he has shown a mind control shout, and he is arrogant.

The Dovahkiin couldn’t even properly get all of bend will he had to make a deal with Mora, meaning Miraak didn’t have a reason to use the full might of bend will.

No he didn't. Are you sure we are playing the same DLC?

Miraak at first wanted the Dovahkiin dead (based on the cultist's note). He didn't expected you to be able to survive the encounter. But then you did, and he was surprised that you appeared before him in Apocrypha (based on his "what the..." and "who are you, to dare set foot here?"dialogues). Then he got the bright idea to use Dovahkiin's soul to escape Apocrypha. In none of these did he deliberately let the Dovahkiin live for no reason. Every single steps that he made were for furthering his final plan, which is to escape Apocrypha. Why do you think that he mind controlled the whole inhabitants of Solstheim?

Not to mention that the spell is vastly different than bend will. The range is different, the mechanic is different, and the potency is different. I mean, come on man.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

No there plenty of spells a time limit has to be there. Potions definitely don’t last forever and that’s alchemy. Many alternation spells won’t make since if they lasted forever like oakflesh. One of the master mages literally had a problem with an invisibility spell because he couldn’t get it too end.

Potions are like our world medicines so bad example

Those are concentrations spells, meaning that as long as remain concentrated it will remain

Yes, spells have a "kill switch" to terminate spells, also bad example as this just proves that spells dont have a time limit

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

.

Just went to the lore page of miraak to see if is stated that he used the bend will and this is what I found

"It wasn't until 4E 201 that Miraak was able to use arcane magical powers to overtly influence the people of Solstheim, making them unknowingly work for him around the island"


So, yea seems he use some spell

 

[Waria_Kambang]

EXACTLY! I don't know why people wants to say that he used bend will. it's clear from the mechanic and potency of the spell that it's completely different from bend will.

 

[Keeweed]

The invisibility spell was causing him problems because it would never end. That means invisibility spells normally end and that this spell going on for so long was the exception.

“Then he got the bright idea to use Dovahkiin's soul to escape Apocrypha”

Why wouldn’t he just kill you then and take that soul. Ignoring how Miraak never shows or mentions a mind control spell while the entire plot revolves a mind control shout and Miraak is a man based around the thu’um.

Miraak has had bend will for much longer than the player and the thu’um in lore definitely works differently then in game. Like look at the in game time shout vs the lore one completely different in practically every way.
Mora’s Grasp doesn’t have lore to contradict its game version, shouts are contradicted all the time.

“Those are concentrations spells, meaning that as long as remain concentrated it will remain”

Oakflesh isn’t concentration, you cast it and you are more durable till it wears off.

Also if different spells can have different effects then why can’t Mora’s just be that it temporarily sends people away. Why are we assuming it permanently does it when the only thing about the spell says it is temporary.

 

[Keeweed]

Just went to the lore page of miraak to see if is stated that he used the bend will and this is what I found

"It wasn't until 4E 201 that Miraak was able to use arcane magical powers to overtly influence the people of Solstheim, making them unknowingly work for him around the island"


So, yea seems he use some spell

Where does that lore page get its information from and is the page a summary of the events or official lore put there by the developers?

Though I’ve kinda forgotten why bend will was brought up to begin with. Why does that spell matter it is vastly different from Mora’s Grasp.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

EXACTLY! I don't know why people wants to say that he used bend will. it's clear from the mechanic and potency of the spell that it's completely different from bend will.

And not even out there given he spent 5K YEARS on a realm where all arcane, secrets etc. Are there on an infinite library

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Where does that lore page get its information from and is the page a summary of the events or official lore put there by the developers?

Though I’ve kinda forgotten why bend will was brought up to begin with. Why does that spell matter it is vastly different from Mora’s Grasp.

Yes, there are developer's in there, it also is the one matt recommended

UESPWiki - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages

en.m.uesp.net

 

[Waria_Kambang]

.

Because he literally said during the " At the Summit of Apocrypha" quest that he needed the Dovahkiin to reach full power. Because stronger Dovahkiin = stronger soul, which mean that he would have the power to leave Apocrypha. His original plan was to use the All-Maker stones to escape Apocrypha, but you foiled that, which lead him to tried to use your soul as a power boost instead.

"...But now I will be free of him. My time in Apocrypha is over. You are here in your full power, and thus subject to my full power. You will die. And with the power of your soul, I will return to Solstheim and be master of my own fate once again."

Anyway, does Mora's Grasp being longer than 24 hours/permanent have any effect on this match? Because I feel like we are straying away from the match, and I'm pretty sure this is not ending anytime soon.

 

[Keeweed]

“The unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages”

Just because Devs hang out on that site doesn’t mean we should use it as evidence. It should be like Wikipedia were you use it to look for the true origin point of the lore.

Though 2 things 1) Even if it was a spell still doesn’t matter much towards Mora’s Grasp. They two different spells with two different outcomes and purposes, 2) I’m going to hang out with my cousin right now and she is leaving town, so I’ll be back later

 

[Waria_Kambang]

“The unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages”

Just because Devs hang out on that site doesn’t mean we should use it as evidence. It should be like Wikipedia were you use it to look for the true origin point of the lore.

Though 2 things 1) Even if it was a spell still doesn’t matter much towards Mora’s Grasp. They two different spells with two different outcomes and purposes, 2) I’m going to hang out with my cousin right now and she is leaving town, so I’ll be back later

It's not an IF, it IS a spell.

Does Mora's Grasp has any relevance to this match? Because if not, then there is no reason to keep talking about this subject.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

“The unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages”

Just because Devs hang out on that site doesn’t mean we should use it as evidence. It should be like Wikipedia were you use it to look for the true origin point of the lore.

Though 2 things 1) Even if it was a spell still doesn’t matter much towards Mora’s Grasp. They two different spells with two different outcomes and purposes, 2) I’m going to hang out with my cousin right now and she is leaving town, so I’ll be back later

And yet is one of the most reliable wiki for TES not to mention also recommended by matt as it is one if not the most accurate one

So unless u have proff of it being unreliable and no, the name does not make it unreliable

1. It never did, yall brought it up I responded to it

2. Have fun

 

[DTG499]

That's not how it works. For the wiki specifically, we go with what is the least generous assumption.

Otherwise, Occam's Razor is still a thing, you need to actively assume it has no time limit.

The least generous assumption is very subjective and strictly dependent upon which side you are arguing for.

 

[DTG499]

we gotta make the daedric artifacts some profiles already.

 

[The_Narrator_of_Narrative]

Lore versus gameplay​

“However, there are differences between the setting as presented in in-game texts and dialogue and in the games themselves. This is most obvious in the case of city populations. For example, Oblivion has 1,839 named NPCs, and yet there is reference to "thousands" of rice workers in the east of the province alone in a text.[1] Differences like this mean that how something is represented in the games may not match their precise nature in lore. -The Elder Scrolls Wiki”

Lore and Game mechanics contradict each other all the time, we should always prioritize what’s in lore before what’s in gameplay, anyways voting for The Dovahkiin FRA.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

People think he uses the shout because that's what the quesline very heavily implies. When asked to break the mind control, you are told to go and learn "what he has learn there, long ago" while referring to the control over the people of Solsteim.

You, then, learn Bend Will. The shout that claims the ability to bend stones to your will, then animals and people.

Likewise Mora claims he will grant "the same power he wields" , then he teaches you the second word of power, and offers a trade for the third.

Why a single word would be able to overturn the control could be as simple as Miraak being unable to fully manifest his power in Tamriel, but that is besides the point. It is claimed you learn the same powers as Miraak wields multiple times, and the Bend Will shouts first shout is only usable on the stones and earth.

Regardless, the Dovahkiin is stomped here no-matter what they do. None of their projectiles can hit in time, and they get one-shot.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Lore versus gameplay​

“However, there are differences between the setting as presented in in-game texts and dialogue and in the games themselves. This is most obvious in the case of city populations. For example, Oblivion has 1,839 named NPCs, and yet there is reference to "thousands" of rice workers in the east of the province alone in a text.[1] Differences like this mean that how something is represented in the games may not match their precise nature in lore. -The Elder Scrolls Wiki”

Lore and Game mechanics contradict each other all the time, we should always prioritize what’s in lore before what’s in gameplay, anyways voting for The Dovahkiin FRA.

Yes. That was repeated a million times.

There is no contradiction here. Not once is lore involved with the spells Mora grants.

And win through what? Throwing a ball 4 at an enemy 4 kilometers away, somehow making it pass through the physical obstacles in the way, before the enemy thinks and Dovah gets destroyed?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The least generous assumption is very subjective and strictly dependent upon which side you are arguing for.

No? The least generous assumption is the one that grants least AP. Like assuming mountains are merely 600 meters tall, or assuming low time frames at 10 or 1 seconds when the characters move at mach speeds, or assuming powers are as weak as they might potentially be.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

.

What people? This wiki agreed that he used magic to influenced the people of Solstheim.

Range: Standard Melee Range with his Sword, Extended Melee Range with his Staff, Planetary with the Thu'um (The Greybeards, who are far less powerful than him with their Thu'um, could shake the entire planet), Low Complex Multiversal with magic (He was able to influence Nirn from the higher-dimensional space of Oblivion, brainwashing the inhabitants of Solstheim and stealing the souls of dragons the Dovahkiin killed. He could also summon the Last Dragonborn to Oblivion and send him back to Nirn).

Storn literally said that it's magic that Miraak used to mind-controlled the people.

"Put an end to this evil magic before it consumes us all." - Storn

None of those are relevant. The Storn's quote doesn't directly implied that what he used on the stones was bend will, and the Hermaeus Mora's quotes are well passed that point of the story. Heck, Hermaeus Mora didn't even mentioned anything about the all-maker stones in any of his dialogue in Dragonborn. The fact that bend will can only be used on earth doesn't prove what Miraak used was bend will. That's causal fallacy.

If that's true, then yeah, I agree that it's a stomp. Now excuse me, I'm going to slowly and surely leave this debate.

 

[DTG499]

Dovah FRA

 

[DTG499]

No? The least generous assumption is the one that grants least AP. Like assuming mountains are merely 600 meters tall, or assuming low time frames at 10 or 1 seconds when the characters move at mach speeds, or assuming powers are as weak as they might potentially be.

You are not even assuming it’s weak you are assuming in lore that the ability is practically useless. And we still have more evidence leaning towards the no time limit.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Dovah FRA

No fra was given, again. Waria is agreeing that Dovah is stomped here.

You are not even assuming it’s weak you are assuming in lore that the ability is practically useless. And we still have more evidence leaning towards the no time limit.

No? Incapacitating an enemy, with no possibility of it being resisted, is massively helpful regardless. Be it an ally being spared from a mortal wound, or having Alduin in statis while you chug down a potion and summon your daedra, it is absolutely a good crowd control ability.
Plus, what use does your unrelenting force pulverizing enemies have? Its power isn't amplified, and in-lore its already supposed to be able to do that. It also only activated if you would normally kill the enemy. All it can do is stop necromancy from an enemy, which is far less useful. Or the ability that boils down to a healing, magicka or stamina potion.

The gifts Mora grants are not that great. The only one that is really, really powerful is the Fire breath enhancment, and that assumes you are up against hordes of one-shottable enemies.

And, no, you do not have more proof leaning towards it. Abilities that have a timer in-game have a timer in the lore more often than not, with it lasting longer to a varying extent, be it magic, potions, etc. It being connected to Oblivion means nothing, because it is equally connected to Tamriel. Specifically, if you use it in Oblivion, the enemy is paralyzed the same way despite the plane you are in having time, and Tamriel also having time.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So are u gonna say why is a stomp or just gonna say "stomp" and just leave it at that with no reasoning?

 

[Keeweed]

So are u gonna say why is a stomp or just gonna say "stomp" and just leave it at that with no reasoning?

The Player has a massive ap advantage (easily enough to one shot) and their powers would overcome the Dovahkiin’s resistances. Even ignoring that the Dovahkiin definitely doesn’t resist death manipulation nor durability negation. The Dovahkiin’s only win option is the Staff of Magnus, which either doesn’t have enough range to hit the player or is dodged due to the massive distance between these two, while many of the player’s attacks don’t need to travel to the opponent.

 

[DTG499]

Dovah uses BFR or daedric artifacts GG

 

[DTG499]

No? Incapacitating an enemy, with no possibility of it being resisted, is massively helpful regardless. Be it an ally being spared from a mortal wound, or having Alduin in statis while you chug down a potion and summon your daedra, it is absolutely a good crowd control ability.

He has time stop available so why would he use that again?

 

[DTG499]

And, no, you do not have more proof leaning towards it. Abilities that have a timer in-game have a timer in the lore more often than not, with it lasting longer to a varying extent, be it magic, potions, etc. It being connected to Oblivion means nothing, because it is equally connected to Tamriel. Specifically, if you use it in Oblivion, the enemy is paralyzed the same way despite the plane you are in having time, and Tamriel also having time.

The context of all other lesser spells having no time limit. That is all you need but you keep insisting on beating you pointless argument to death. The time limit is a game mechanic. Factually.