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People just haven’t bothered to add it for some reason. Dovah’s profile in general needs more things added and major updates but no one has done it yet.
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Dovahkiin fights Za Player
- Thread starter Lucas_Carvalho_Santiago
- Start date
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That's not at all a good argument. Most daedric realms of note still abide by time because the prince's or rulers want them to, and Apocrypha is one of them. And, the spell doesn't throw you into Oblivion, it keeps you in-between the planes.
There is literally one, singular sentence explaining the power, and that sentance claims that the power is 30 seconds only. You cannot just cut the sentence in half for a headcanon explaination. If there is any instance of Mora's Grasp lasting longer, great, but you can't just say it does with no proof.
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Well, that's too bad. You are not claiming tier 1 durability all the same without it being on the profile.
Again, there is some leeway for what is not on the profile. Say, an undead doesn't have it on there that he doesn't eat, that can be excused and waved away.
Tier 1 anything, does not fit that mold.
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I’ll find it soon (the thread the BFR was discussed).
When it comes to the hide: Matt and Ultima repeatedly stated during the original revisions that daedric artifacts are only high 1-B in the hands of daedra (I’ll need to find that thread too). I agree with that because Daedric Artifacts are small pieces of daedric princes. Sheogorath literally turned a random stick into a daedric artifact. It makes no sense for Deadric Princes to fight each other all the time, but Hirince can just causally make something that can block hits from Dagon with no problem.
Though I’ve need to make a rather large thread on something completely unrelated soon, so I’ll be back later.
When it comes to the hide: Matt and Ultima repeatedly stated during the original revisions that daedric artifacts are only high 1-B in the hands of daedra (I’ll need to find that thread too). I agree with that because Daedric Artifacts are small pieces of daedric princes. Sheogorath literally turned a random stick into a daedric artifact. It makes no sense for Deadric Princes to fight each other all the time, but Hirince can just causally make something that can block hits from Dagon with no problem.
Though I’ve need to make a rather large thread on something completely unrelated soon, so I’ll be back later.
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It said trapped between oblivion and mundus not apocrypha and mundus. Oblivion by default is above time so Moras Grasp would be no different.
That 30 seconds is only shown in the menu and in gameplay just like shout timers and other spells. We haven’t seen anything in the lore that proves it does have an actual time limit either. Why is this time limit taken as a fact of the lore when we have seen that all other time limits are just game mechanics?
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Not all daedric artifacts require the use of the princes to get the full power out of them. I’ve talked to contributors to ES wiki about this and they are knowledgeable about our rules.
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We have talked about doing it for a long time but since the wiki move we have all kind of scrambled. His BFR is used in threads and it was never specified as High 1-B on his profile.
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That logic doesn't follow through. Ignoring Apocrypha's green theme to those paralysed, they are "close" enough to Mundus that they are physically visible, if a little transparent.
The only statement about the ability, puts a direct limit on the ability. Its not "there is no proof against lore", it's the opposite. You are making the claim of the ability not having a weakness it is stated to have, and shown to have in-game, without any statements of showings against.
There is no reason why Oblivion not always having time (even though every realm explored so far had it implemented) would trump over Mundus in an in-between Situation either, so that is not proof.
in the end, there is proof against, and no direct proof for it.
The only statement about the ability, puts a direct limit on the ability. Its not "there is no proof against lore", it's the opposite. You are making the claim of the ability not having a weakness it is stated to have, and shown to have in-game, without any statements of showings against.
There is no reason why Oblivion not always having time (even though every realm explored so far had it implemented) would trump over Mundus in an in-between Situation either, so that is not proof.
in the end, there is proof against, and no direct proof for it.
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BFR is not AP or durability. It is teleporting someone. And the teleportation in this case is specifically keeping someone in-between realms, frozen, not a direct transition.
They are physically visible, and one of the best uses on spells is making allies invulnerable, or crowd control, both of which would obviously not make sense if it was permanent.
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No the proof is that literary all other time limits are proven to be game mechanics and oblivion does not operate on time. There isn’t any proof in the lore one way or the other so we have to compare it to other powers/Magic
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How you use it personally is not relevant.
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Mundus operates on time. The character affected by the grasp is still present on Mundus to am extent large enough to be visible.
And, no, ability descriptions aren't just ignored at all times. Dragon rend had to have a crt for it, as did the fact that thu'um has intervals for it. Other time frames in-game that we ignores are the ones shown to be ignored, such as that of invisibility or the illusion magic in general.
In every case where something is ignored, it's because there is active proof against it.
You are trying to have your cake, and eat it too. The time limit, is set in the very sentence that claims it is BFR. The ability doesn't appear in any other media, or even in the same game.
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I assumed you meant my personal stance, but... are you talking about the fact that you see those affected by the ability?
Excuse me?
So, you want to ignore the description except the first half of the sentence. You also wish to ignore the actual mechanics of it as it is shown. And all of that, without any lore to back it up? Well, make the crt. Make every elder scroll character have tier 1 durability with the hide, give them all tier 1 Ap, and give the Dragonborn an ability he has never shown though a half sentence that ignores the other half.
Until then, no, he can't do any of this. And until then, he gets one-shot all the same here.
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You used gameplay design to try and argue why the time limit isn’t a game mechanic. Very self defeating isn’t it?
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Because we have lore proving intervals. You are trying to use lack of lore to prove the time limit. Very different things. The majority of time limits in ES are game mechanics when we have one that isn’t specified either way, majority rules.
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Not really, no. The ability is a game exclusive one unmentioned in any other platform. It's effects and mechanics had care out in to them (as much care as Skyrim stuff gets anyways), adding special effects and visual cues to tie the ability back to Mora.
In the end, you have nothing to stand on for this claim. There is no other instance of this spell - or really any spell that keeps someone in-between to realms in a manner that they are invisible but intangible in both - that contradicts the claims. There is no implications, no descriptions, nothing.
Skyrim's gameplay is obviously not fire proof, but when faced off against nothing, you cannot just ignore it for what boils down to be a personal belief of how the power should function.
No, majority doesn't rule. Burden of proof does. Time limits that are ignored in the game, are ignored because of proof against them. It is not assumed an invisibility potion is permanent just because the game puts a time limiter on it, the opposite. It's not assumed Dragonrend is a permanent effect. And so on.
Regardless, it is not on the profile. If you Mish to make such active claims, make a crt and get them accepted. If you're argument relies on a character having several infinities higher fire power and durability, and having the ability to get an active projectile to cross 4 kilometers faster than the enemy can think towards them, then the match is not legitimate regardless.
Other profiles were put on halt (banned from having matches) for less. If it's really that horribly outdated, have it put on ban until you can update it, or do not use arguments that do not at all conform with the profile.
In the end, you have nothing to stand on for this claim. There is no other instance of this spell - or really any spell that keeps someone in-between to realms in a manner that they are invisible but intangible in both - that contradicts the claims. There is no implications, no descriptions, nothing.
Skyrim's gameplay is obviously not fire proof, but when faced off against nothing, you cannot just ignore it for what boils down to be a personal belief of how the power should function.
No, majority doesn't rule. Burden of proof does. Time limits that are ignored in the game, are ignored because of proof against them. It is not assumed an invisibility potion is permanent just because the game puts a time limiter on it, the opposite. It's not assumed Dragonrend is a permanent effect. And so on.
Regardless, it is not on the profile. If you Mish to make such active claims, make a crt and get them accepted. If you're argument relies on a character having several infinities higher fire power and durability, and having the ability to get an active projectile to cross 4 kilometers faster than the enemy can think towards them, then the match is not legitimate regardless.
Other profiles were put on halt (banned from having matches) for less. If it's really that horribly outdated, have it put on ban until you can update it, or do not use arguments that do not at all conform with the profile.
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There isn’t any lore on the spell contradicting the time limit though (just coming to say I no longer need to find the other thread because Ricsi brought his argument here).
I still need to find the thread on daedric artifacts, but honestly they really need a new thread discussioning their potency, because the Eternal Champion becomes a massive smurf if they really do scale to high 1-B (but I don’t think they do).
I still need to find the thread on daedric artifacts, but honestly they really need a new thread discussioning their potency, because the Eternal Champion becomes a massive smurf if they really do scale to high 1-B (but I don’t think they do).
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The champion just isn't supposed to at all scale to any other games due to the retcons. As neat as time breaks are, they just can't make the plot holes disappear.
However, majority of the other characters would Indern need tier 1 durability added to the profile.
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Battlespire is literally the very next game and it is where the daedric artifacts scaling to daedric princes comes from the most. Though I personally disagree with the daedric artifacts scaling anyways. I would make the thread right now, but I have a hair cut soon, so either I’ll make it later or someone else can make it.
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Yes, after the game of the champion a lot of stuff was retconned so that game is more treated as it's own thing now
Not all artifacts would scale just to make it clear, just some, I will put a thread, list of them later on.
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Nor do we have anything in the lore confirming the time limit. The 30 seconds comes exclusively from gameplay.
Burden of proof can’t be applied here because there is no proof either way. If all other WEAKER spells don’t have a time limit, why would the power from an actual God have a garbage 30 second time limit.
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The time limit argument based on gameplay is just wrong. Those are just meaningless numbers for balancing reasons. Waterbreathing in Skyrim only lasts for 60 seconds, yet in lore an entire village worth of Ayleids can use it for a whole night to hide from the Alessian's army.
Bravil: Daughter of the Niben | Elder Scrolls | Fandom
Saying "oh, but those are different because there are lore to prove it" is also flawed since you can't actually expect EVERY SINGLE SPELL to have statements in lore regarding their time limits. Especially since 95% of spells in Elder Scrolls games has no mention in lore. We don't assume that it's 30 seconds when the gameplay, which is the source, is inherently inaccurate and unreliable. In the first place, magic in Elder Scrolls is just wrapping reality in accordance to the user's will. If I petrify you, you will stay petrified forever, since that has become the reality. Pure and simple.
Bravil: Daughter of the Niben | Elder Scrolls | Fandom
Saying "oh, but those are different because there are lore to prove it" is also flawed since you can't actually expect EVERY SINGLE SPELL to have statements in lore regarding their time limits. Especially since 95% of spells in Elder Scrolls games has no mention in lore. We don't assume that it's 30 seconds when the gameplay, which is the source, is inherently inaccurate and unreliable. In the first place, magic in Elder Scrolls is just wrapping reality in accordance to the user's will. If I petrify you, you will stay petrified forever, since that has become the reality. Pure and simple.
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But there is no lore to say how long the BFR last, so we just can’t assume a time frame. We know it doesn’t last forever because the spells only description says it has a time limit and there isn’t any other information to give it a better time than 30 seconds. Mora’s Grasp is vastly different from every other spell in the game and it should have a lore explanation.
The petrifaction example is both, wrong, and isn’t even comparable. Getting generically turned to stone should last forever, but if the game says there is a time limit then there is a time limit to it. For example in Terrarian you can be petrified by Medusa, but the petrifaction only last 2 seconds, we don’t assume the Terrarian has petrifaction resistance we assume Medusa’s petrifaction is garbage. BFR is a vastly different power from petrifaction to begin with and in this case it is stated to have a time limit, so it’ll have a time limit, even if it is above 30 seconds. The time limit is completely unquantifiable so we can only assume it last 30 seconds unless lore contradicts it. It should be case by case for every single spell, because all spells are different and we can’t auto assume any of them last forever, unless stated.
The petrifaction example is both, wrong, and isn’t even comparable. Getting generically turned to stone should last forever, but if the game says there is a time limit then there is a time limit to it. For example in Terrarian you can be petrified by Medusa, but the petrifaction only last 2 seconds, we don’t assume the Terrarian has petrifaction resistance we assume Medusa’s petrifaction is garbage. BFR is a vastly different power from petrifaction to begin with and in this case it is stated to have a time limit, so it’ll have a time limit, even if it is above 30 seconds. The time limit is completely unquantifiable so we can only assume it last 30 seconds unless lore contradicts it. It should be case by case for every single spell, because all spells are different and we can’t auto assume any of them last forever, unless stated.
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There isn’t an absence of evidence here. The game says there is a time limit, you have to prove that time limit is non canon. Since there is no lore to say the time limit isn’t canon, we have to assume there is a time limit.
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You are using lack of evidence to prove your claim, which is a double edged sword considering there is no evidence to prove your claim either. All other spells have been proven to not have a time limit in lore we need to put the BFR in context to all other spells. That’s the only way to effectively conclude this.
We don’t know either or if it actually is an in lore time limit. We can’t use the game mechanic to prove it’s an in lore thing.
We don’t know either or if it actually is an in lore time limit. We can’t use the game mechanic to prove it’s an in lore thing.
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No there is evidence, the game straight up says there is a time limit, you just keep ignoring that like it doesn’t exist.
There are many spells in lore that have time limits, they are just vastly longer than in game, but those spells are different. They have lore support to say their time limits are non canon, Mora’s Grasp doesn’t act like any of them so we need to assume it has a time limit.
There are many spells in lore that have time limits, they are just vastly longer than in game, but those spells are different. They have lore support to say their time limits are non canon, Mora’s Grasp doesn’t act like any of them so we need to assume it has a time limit.
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Because Oblivion and the spell are completely unrelated. If someone is bfr’d to a timeless spot and the BFR has a time limit, while from the opponent’s perspective they would have been there for no time, the BFR user perspective has 30 seconds pass and the opponent comes back.
Also Oblivion technically has time, even if it is forced upon it.
It being from gameplay does not automatically make it a gameplay mechanic.
Also Oblivion technically has time, even if it is forced upon it.
It being from gameplay does not automatically make it a gameplay mechanic.
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No? Certain princes force time into there own realms but oblivion be default doesn’t operate on it. Everything that we see from the game menu and inventory would be a game mechanic. We can’t use a game mechanic to say something isn’t a game mechanic. Come on now you know this argument isn’t going anywhere. The high 1-B BFR is staying.
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No we don't. Saying that we should take something as an evidence when said evidence has been shown to previously be inaccurate is stupid. YOU are the one who first need to prove that the time limit in game is reliable, before you can talk about it being an evidence.
And you are missing the point. The main point is that magic in Elder Scrolls is basically altering reality to match the user's will. Basically means that after reality has been altered according to the user's wishes, that reality will become the natural parts of the world. Like how summoning frost and fire through destruction basically summons a natural force of frost and fire. It's not a comparison, it's an example.
Funny thing is that I've never seen a mention of time limit for spells in lore aside from Daggerfall's description of Thaumaturgy, but that's literally only for a single school of magic with time limit as it's whole thing, and doesn't count for anything when talking about an entirely different spell that works under a different mechanic like Mora's Grasp. Makes you wonder whether it actually exists for other schools of magic or not.
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It hasn’t shown to be previously inaccurate though, because the spell never shows up in lore. There isn’t anything contradicting it.
Spells like oak flesh and water breathing don’t last literally forever. They last way longer in lore than they do in game but it’s not like you cast it once and you have it for life.
The magic being done through reality warping would have zero effect on how long it last. The spell doesn’t dissipate due to lasting to long, it just sends half sends the person to Oblivion and then sends them back.
Even if the magic that directly talks about time limits is obscure that means there is magic in the Elder Scrolls that relies on time limits, so we can’t automatically assume Mora’s Grasp time limit is a gameplay mechanic.
Spells like oak flesh and water breathing don’t last literally forever. They last way longer in lore than they do in game but it’s not like you cast it once and you have it for life.
The magic being done through reality warping would have zero effect on how long it last. The spell doesn’t dissipate due to lasting to long, it just sends half sends the person to Oblivion and then sends them back.
Even if the magic that directly talks about time limits is obscure that means there is magic in the Elder Scrolls that relies on time limits, so we can’t automatically assume Mora’s Grasp time limit is a gameplay mechanic.
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Again, you can only use that argument after you have proven that the gameplay mechanic is reliable.
No? I mean, Ancano used paralysis on Tolfdir that really only lost it's effect after we killed him. Miraak used a spell from Oblivion that can influence minds of thousands for a whole night and only stop because people wakes up from it, not because of time limit. And there is likely ways for the mages to deactivate those spells, rather than it having a time limit. Otherwise, there is no way a bunch of Ayleid villagers without any military training can ambushed and raid the Alessian's army so effectively for 3 days straight.
Yes, which is limited to a single school of magic that literally have time limit as it's whole thing. An exception is not the rule, and there is no reason to believe that this extends to other schools of magic.
No? I mean, Ancano used paralysis on Tolfdir that really only lost it's effect after we killed him. Miraak used a spell from Oblivion that can influence minds of thousands for a whole night and only stop because people wakes up from it, not because of time limit. And there is likely ways for the mages to deactivate those spells, rather than it having a time limit. Otherwise, there is no way a bunch of Ayleid villagers without any military training can ambushed and raid the Alessian's army so effectively for 3 days straight.
Yes, which is limited to a single school of magic that literally have time limit as it's whole thing. An exception is not the rule, and there is no reason to believe that this extends to other schools of magic.
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Miraak didn’t use a spell to mind control people. He used bend will. Oak flesh nor water breathing are manily deactivated in game. While they last vastly longer in lore, they still wear off eventually. Also those spells are vastly different. They are meant to give people an ability for an extended period of time. Mora’s Grasp is meant to prevent people from attacking you for a limited amount of time. It’s not meant to just leave someone into Oblivion forever.
Mora’s Grasp is an exception to nearly ever spell in the series so it being stated to have a time limit means we can’t reject it without evidence. Since Mora’s Grasp doesn’t appear in lore there is no evidence to assume it is a gameplay mechanic.
Mora’s Grasp is an exception to nearly ever spell in the series so it being stated to have a time limit means we can’t reject it without evidence. Since Mora’s Grasp doesn’t appear in lore there is no evidence to assume it is a gameplay mechanic.
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The concept of "Burden of Proof" is being heavily ignored here. Thinks presented as temporary in game are almost always temporary even if the exact seconds aren't perfect. Potions, self-enhancing spells, etc. are not permanent, even if they can last potentially for hours.
I think you would find it difficult to find a spell that has a set timer on it that doesn't have any timer in the actual lore.
More importantly, you need to prove that it lacks a limit. Even if its more than 30 seconds, it has certainly no proof of being longer than 24 hours.
And regardless, it cannot be used here, as even aiming the thing without a tree getting in the way along the 4 kmd is plain impossible. Unless you wish to argue that it being a projectile is a game mechanic also?
I think you would find it difficult to find a spell that has a set timer on it that doesn't have any timer in the actual lore.
More importantly, you need to prove that it lacks a limit. Even if its more than 30 seconds, it has certainly no proof of being longer than 24 hours.
And regardless, it cannot be used here, as even aiming the thing without a tree getting in the way along the 4 kmd is plain impossible. Unless you wish to argue that it being a projectile is a game mechanic also?
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No he didn't. The Dovahkiin's first word of bend will was able to easily dispel whatever effects was on the All-Maker Stones, despite Miraak having a stronger thu'um than us. It makes no sense for it to be bend will. And come now, let's not assume what the ability is supposed to do based on it's function in-game. Especially, since like you said, there is no mention of it in lore.
Aside from time limit not being mentioned in any books aside for a single schools of magic that is purposely created to have a time limit?
But, I change my mind. I do agree that there is no way to prove that it has no time limit, but it is heavily likely to last more than 24 hours, since other spells like waterbreathing and levitation has shown to be able to last for a whole night and even for a permanent amount of time, like Miraak's mind control. And this spells are probably far weaker than Mora's Grasp since it came from a far weaker sources.
Aside from time limit not being mentioned in any books aside for a single schools of magic that is purposely created to have a time limit?
But, I change my mind. I do agree that there is no way to prove that it has no time limit, but it is heavily likely to last more than 24 hours, since other spells like waterbreathing and levitation has shown to be able to last for a whole night and even for a permanent amount of time, like Miraak's mind control. And this spells are probably far weaker than Mora's Grasp since it came from a far weaker sources.
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Alteration, Alchemy, Restoration and illusion all have time limits on spells that cannot be permanent by nature without being mentioned.
And, no, assuming it's more than 24 is baseless also. You cannot compare apples to oranges and claim that since another spell can make someone invisible for a day, a spell that keeps someone in-between two planes of existence while frozen and intangible to both planes will be the same.
And, no, assuming it's more than 24 is baseless also. You cannot compare apples to oranges and claim that since another spell can make someone invisible for a day, a spell that keeps someone in-between two planes of existence while frozen and intangible to both planes will be the same.
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Not ignored it just can’t be applied in this situation because there is no proof for either claim.
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