Dovahkiin fights Za Player

[Keeweed]

Dovah uses BFR or daedric artifacts GG

What do Daedric Artifacts do? Unless we are going back to the ‘they are high 1-B argument’ when they aren’t then the player either resist, outranges, or the artifact doesn’t do anything helpful here.

We’ve been discussing the BFR for this entire thread. Even assuming it is permanent, the ability doesn’t have range required to hit the player (it can send people a high 1-B distance, but it can’t target someone that far away)

Not all lesser spells lack time limits. Invisibility is stated that is supposed to wear off for example. Those spells have completely different outcomes and causes so how they work doesn’t even matter to begin with. Mora’s Grasp had a time limit and no lore contradicts this. It wouldn’t even be a gameplay mechanic even if the lore contradicts it, that just means the story’s description takes priority. You need lore to contradict something in order to dismiss it, while Mora’s Grasp isn’t contradicted.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"Artifacts are not high 1-B"

Yea not like the hide thanked attacks from dagon

Or how umbrage can be use to damage vile and take his power

Or how the spear of bitter mercy can harm dagon

Or how the sword of jiggylag has the power to destroy the daedric realm of sheogorath



Invisibility is permanent unless u do something active like fighting or something

As lore states that once u cast it it will remain as long as u dont do something like that

 

[Keeweed]

The sword of Jyggalag has that power when wield by Jyggalag. Any random person holding it shouldn’t have high 1-B attack potency.

Umbra was being held by Vile when it stabbed him. The low 2-C nerevarine and 4-C CoC defeated people wielding Umbra with zero difficulty. And in lore random people wielding Umbra have been defeated by regular guards (though this took a crap ton of effort).

Unless Hircine can just effortlessly stomp Dagon into the floor with literally zero effort at all his spear and hide by themselves hurting and stopping Dagon is a massive outlier.

The master mage in Skyrim literally says his invisibility is unique because it won’t stop. Other people have pointed out theirs an entire tree dedicated to spells with time limits, that doesn’t help the argument against Mora Grasp at all. That means there specifically are spells with clear canon time limits, meaning Mora Grasp can have a limited time limit as other spells are shown to have this weakness.

While those spells are exceptions (with their low time limits), Mora’s Grasp is also an exception in comparison to literally every other spell in the Elder Scrolls, and so it needs lore to prove that it doesn’t have a time limit.

 

[DTG499]

The dovahkiin has much longer range than the player and the distance from which they start from each other wasn’t specified so they are starting in front of each other. Dovah wins regardless.

Look into the differences between the daedric artifacts some work on the power of the user others work of the power of the prince.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The sword of Jyggalag has that power when wield by Jyggalag. Any random person holding it shouldn’t have high 1-B attack potency.

Umbra was being held by Vile when it stabbed him. The low 2-C nerevarine and 4-C CoC defeated people wielding Umbra with zero difficulty. And in lore random people wielding Umbra have been defeated by regular guards (though this took a crap ton of effort).

Unless Hircine can just effortlessly stomp Dagon into the floor with literally zero effort at all his spear and hide by themselves hurting and stopping Dagon is a massive outlier.

The master mage in Skyrim literally says his invisibility is unique because it won’t stop. Other people have pointed out theirs an entire tree dedicated to spells with time limits, that doesn’t help the argument against Mora Grasp at all. That means there specifically are spells with clear canon time limits, meaning Mora Grasp can have a limited time limit as other spells are shown to have this weakness.

While those spells are exceptions (with their low time limits), Mora’s Grasp is also an exception in comparison to literally every other spell in the Elder Scrolls, and so it needs lore to prove that it doesn’t have a time limit.

Exept for that rando guy that was using the sword to destroy the shivering isles, the sword was abandoned by jyggalag and the sword still maintains it's full powers as it still can harm sheogorath.

The sword has a will of it's own and can attack and harm vile, and take away power from him


U can keep saying outlier but u dont bring any profe of it being an outlier, both are daedric princes and strong ones at that, them resisting attacks and harming each other is nothing so out of mind as u try to make it seems to downplay them

The master of illusion did not say that, the first time u found him he ask if he is invisible and u say no and he just mutters off, also on lore invisibility last forever unless u do something active as I said before, unless of course u are saying game mechanics is above lore

Yes 1 school of magic, can u prove herman moras is from that school of magic?

U are trying to prove a negative, on lire spells dont have time limits exept for those from that one school of magic which even says on the lore

"while diferent from the school of alteration who bends reality to the users whims that school of magic spells only bend the laws of reality for a short time"

 

[Keeweed]

Mora’s Grasp’s only description says it has a time limit. I’m not saying the spell just fails after a certain amount of time, what I meant was the part of the spell is that it brings those effected by back after a certain amount of time. If the spell was meant to just send people away forever it would work like literally every other BFR spell in the Elder Scrolls that actually sends people away. It wouldn’t half send them to Oblivion and be stated and shown to bring them back with no contradiction.

Where does it say in lore that the invisibility last forever. If your basing it off the water breathing that also isn’t stated to last forever. It last multiple days but that isn’t proof it last for life.

“The sword has a will of it's own and can attack and harm vile, and take away power from him”

If it by itself was as strong as Vile it shouldn’t lose to regular castle guards, the high 4-C CoC, and low 2-C Nerevarine because it would be beyond infinitely superior to all of them.

Daedric Princes fight each other all the time correct, that wouldn’t make any sense if things these guys can make on a whim stomp other Deadric Princes. Hircine should stomp Dagon with zero difficulty if his artifacts alone can completely prevent all his attacks and his spear can defeat him.

Though honestly this should be its own thread with Matt, Ultima, and other staff members.

Though daedric artifacts being high 1-B was rejected in the past and its not on the profile currently so we can’t use it in this thread.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Mora’s Grasp’s only description says it has a time limit. I’m not saying the spell just fails after a certain amount of time, what I meant was the part of the spell is that it brings those effected by back after a certain amount of time. If the spell was meant to just send people away forever it would work like literally every other BFR spell in the Elder Scrolls that actually sends people away. It wouldn’t half send them to Oblivion and be stated and shown to bring them back with no contradiction.

Where does it say in lore that the invisibility last forever. If your basing it off the water breathing that also isn’t stated to last forever. It last multiple days but that isn’t proof it last for life.

“The sword has a will of it's own and can attack and harm vile, and take away power from him”

If it by itself was as strong as Vile it shouldn’t lose to regular castle guards, the high 4-C CoC, and low 2-C Nerevarine because it would be beyond infinitely superior to all of them.

Daedric Princes fight each other all the time correct, that wouldn’t make any sense if things these guys can make on a whim stomp other Deadric Princes. Hircine should stomp Dagon with zero difficulty if his artifacts alone can completely prevent all his attacks and his spear can defeat him.

Though honestly this should be its own thread with Matt, Ultima, and other staff members.

Though daedric artifacts being high 1-B was rejected in the past and its not on the profile currently so we can’t use it in this thread.

Like all spells that dont have time limit and in the game they do, so why should moras grasp be different here?

• "Visibility spells come in two forms: invisibility and chameleon. The former totally removes the target from plain sight but is dispelled should the target perform any action other than simply moving around."

Because just like the prisoners they are dated to have it, they are not going to be defeated and will always prevail even when they are againts daedric princes or creatures of equal might

Can resist attacks and harm him, I never said it negs his attacks, if u have the hide u can resist attacks and the spear harm him not defeat him

U say that but I cant find any thread where that is being rejected

Is not on the profiles cus we dont even have profiles for the artifacts to beging with

 

[Keeweed]

“Visibility spells come in two forms: invisibility and chameleon. The former totally removes the target from plain sight but is dispelled should the target perform any action other than simply moving around.”

That doesn’t prove invisibility last forever. That just means one of the spells has a weakness that it gets removed if someone performs an action, just like DND and Terraria that have invisibility just like that (in DND and Terraria invisibility wears off but certain invisibilities are also dispersed if you attack).

“U say that but I cant find any thread where that is being rejected”

They were rejected during the original revision that made the Dovahkiin low 2-C (along with many other things).

We used to have Deadric Artifacts profiles that had them be high 1-B (they were actually low 1-C, but they would be high 1-B now, to clarify). Matt deleted them immediately for being wank.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

“Visibility spells come in two forms: invisibility and chameleon. The former totally removes the target from plain sight but is dispelled should the target perform any action other than simply moving around.”

That doesn’t prove invisibility last forever. That just means one of the spells has a weakness that it gets removed if someone performs an action, just like DND and Terraria that have invisibility just like that (in DND and Terraria invisibility wears off but certain invisibilities are also dispersed if you attack).

“U say that but I cant find any thread where that is being rejected”

They were rejected during the original revision that made the Dovahkiin low 2-C (along with many other things).

We used to have Deadric Artifacts profiles that had them be high 1-B. Matt deleted them immediately for being wank.

It literally there that as long as u dont do anything besides moving around u will have the invisibility



Please provide the thread




The previous profiles where when the daedric princes where low 2-C/low 1-C

When the daedric princes and the rest were updated to high 1-B profiles for artifacts had been eliminated years before

 

[Keeweed]

“It literally there that as long as u dont do anything besides moving around u will have the invisibility”

It technically says that but not in the way you are trying to use it. Yes if they don’t do anything they will have invisibility, but they will only have it as long as the spell last. It is referring to how you can lose the invisibility, not that it has zero time limit.

Yes, but the concept is the same. Instead of being low 1-C for scaling to Daedra they are high 1-B. It is the same thing under a different name (edited the original post to clarify it more).

 

[Waria_Kambang]

The gifts Mora grants are not that great. The only one that is really, really powerful is the Fire breath enhancment, and that assumes you are up against hordes of one-shottable enemies.

I always find Dragonborn Frost to be far more useful than Dragonborn Fire since it's basically a better version of Ice Form. At legendary, Dragonborn Fire is really useless.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I always find Dragonborn Frost to be far more useful than Dragonborn Fire since it's basically a better version of Ice Form. At legendary, Dragonborn Fire is really useless.

Which is why I always have mods to help the game more lore based, the mods I use basically make majority of the shouts a 1 hit kill

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Which is why I always have mods to help the game more lore based, the mods I use basically make majority of the shouts a 1 hit kill

Yeah, I like to combine Thunderchild + Wildcat + Ordinator + Revenge of the Enemies + Combat Evolved. It has a pretty amazing difficulty progression, especially when it comes to shout progression. If my character went to any ancient nord ruin, even at high level, he would at absolutely get destroyed by the draugrs that use shouts, but after my character started learning more Words of Power, the fights started to become easier. It is really lore-friendly since thu'um users are supposed to be nigh-impossible for non-thu'um users to beat.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yeah, I like to combine Thunderchild + Wildcat + Ordinator + Revenge of the Enemies + Combat Evolved. It has a pretty amazing difficulty progression, especially when it comes to shout progression. If my character went to any ancient nord ruin, even at high level, he would at absolutely get destroyed by the draugrs that use shouts, but after my character started learning more Words of Power, the fights started to become easier. It is really lore-friendly since thu'um users are supposed to be nigh-impossible for non-thu'um users to beat.

Also the fact that once u learn a shout, u become the shout

I also like to add mods that give u more shouts but I find it suprising that I have not found that many

I did find a mod that gave about 30 new shouts which is nice (including the one where u make a clone which was supposed to be on the game)

 

[DTG499]

This BFR argument is going nowhere but circles.

 

[KongKing23]

The sword of Jyggalag has that power when wield by Jyggalag. Any random person holding it shouldn’t have high 1-B attack potency.

Umbra was being held by Vile when it stabbed him. The low 2-C nerevarine and 4-C CoC defeated people wielding Umbra with zero difficulty. And in lore random people wielding Umbra have been defeated by regular guards (though this took a crap ton of effort).

Unless Hircine can just effortlessly stomp Dagon into the floor with literally zero effort at all his spear and hide by themselves hurting and stopping Dagon is a massive outlier.

- Thoron wasn't on par with any Master Mage, or even the Dovahkiin. If he got his way, being controlled by the Sword, then he could have killed Sheogorath. Additionally, there is also a random mook named Talym Rend who used the sword to ward himself against Sheogorath's sheer cosmic presence.

- This argument lies within the user's imagination and prowess, and the sword's preferences. If you give Umbra to completely control Brenuin the beggar, and this beggar is close to Clavicus Vile then he (Umbra) can slay the Prince - the matter of time, location, and circumstance. The issue with Umbra is between the Sword itself and the wielder. In case of The Prisoners, the hero can completely control the Sword and can walk directly to any Prince to stab him or her.

- A mosquito that has Malaria vs A human, case. The mosquito happens to be a mortal, and the Malaria is the spear of bitter mercy. This Malaria can hurt the super ultra powerful person aka Daedric Princes.

 

[Keeweed]

The mosquito analogy completely missed the point. If a small pieces of Hircine can stomp Dagon then Hircine himself should instantly complete annihilate Dagon with zero effort, but daedric princes are stated to fight each other all the time with the exceptions being Jyggalag, Sheogorath, and Nocturnal.

I don’t know where you keep getting this imagination stuff from. I’ve done every daedric quest from Morrowind to Skyrim and they never say the user’s imagination drastically increases the daedric artifacts power. Plus even if it did increase its power: the main characters aren’t stated or shown to do this, are constantly stated to be nothing to daedric princes except for one time that was taken out of context (vile was weakened), and would also be an outlier since that mean small pieces of daedric princes that can be made by them effortlessly can straight up stomp themselves (also I believe I remember the quote you showed me of the imagination stuff and 1) I think it was only referring to a specific character and 2) Dagon was stated in that same scan of being capable of easily kill them there was just a strange loop hole that kept them alive (if I remember it correctly)).

If he only shielded himself from Sheogorath’s presence that doesn’t mean much in this match since the 4-C CoC can stand next to Sheogorath just fine. Also Jyggalag is already a massive exception to all other daedric princes and the only main character I think wield’s his sword is the high 1-B CoC so it literally adds nothing at all to any of our profiles (though I personally think the CoC should have a low 2-C key for the same reason Hircine has one).

 

[DTG499]

The imagination idea comes from ESO. It came from a Hircine quote

 

[Waria_Kambang]

I think there's no point to continue debating this topic in this thread. You guys should preferably talk about it in another thread.