BB (Fate) revision

Another Nasuverse revision thread. What a surprise. There will be a lot of text, but it all seems kinda important and I don't want to leave something you might find crucial. Any constructive input is much appreciated.


First we have some Moon Cell mechanics that involve viewing time from a higher dimension. I didn't include Rin's explanation of the "Observer space" because she just explains how time usually flows. :

Rin: On the other hand, the laws of the archival space are different. Think of archival space as existing in the higher dimension. From a higher dimension, 3D is like a flat fabric. Let's see...say the 3D world is a world written in a book, and jumping in it resulted in finding yourself outside of the book, okay? It becomes so that you are able to see from above your own past, present, future, in the form of records. This is the perspective of a higher dimension. Do you see? At that point, all time within the book becomes equal. After all, you can view any point in time you like whenever you want. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This place is imaginary number space, a higher-dimensional informational space formed by light. As a rule, the Far Side follows not the laws of the observer space, but the laws of the archival space. We are anomalies...no, guests. Organisms of the observer space thrown into archival space. Meanwhile, the core of the Moon Cell is a simulator of parallel worlds, calculating all kinds of possibilities, past and present and future all existing at the same time. In the other words, an existence of the archival space. That very Moon Cell is what BB became. She gained the perspective of a higher dimension. That's why... BB can make use of the past and the future at the same time. When she reached the core, she gained the power to choose and ascertain the future. With the inclusion of the AI called BB, the Moon Cell, which had been only the eye of god became the brain of the god. I don't know how many hours in the future it was, but the important thing is that BB reached the Moon Cell. That fact can't be changed, no matter what. Since she became an existence of the archival space, BB, who can travel back in time and rewind reality, must have known of 'this present'. ...Though it makes the head spin. That's because the moment BB became the Moon Cell, she could inform her past self of 'this present moment'. ...That's why. BB knew from the very beginning that we could never make it on time, no matter what.

Rin: If it were a loop we might still have hope. But that's not it. BB broke through the protective wall, and in the instant she enveloped the Core, became the Moon Cell. And in the Moon Cell the concept of time in our observable universe does not exist. She is already in both the past and the future.


Another interesting quote, but don't know if it can be used:

"This is the borderline that lies between the seventh layer and the Moon Cell Nucleus. Virtual Spiritrons are made of light and it's warned that at the speed of light it would take 404 years to get past this border and to the computer addresses which lie beyond. This essentially communicates 'that address doesn't exist' to anyone/anything attempting to pass. It's actually an infinite distance that cannot be covered even if you try for centuries. The only thing that can serve as a bridge across the borderline to connect the Moon Cell Nucleus to the normal address space is the arena that the Moon Cell made to summon the victor of the Holy Grail War. ...Is how it's supposed to be, but BB used an imaginary number space to force herself to became an 'infinite concept', and by using a fake arena she managed to break past the borderline."


This caught my attention because eight dimensions are being mentioned and it's connected to other quotes. The first one containing "protective wall" that BB broke and the second contains "seventh layer".:

BB: However... The Moon Cell, you might say is impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal. So I've left all of you in Meltlilith's care. The girl can't really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too.

bump for more input

8-D BB is bs though

Ya just like higher dimensional Aizen.

Well the difference is with "transcendent" Aizen people simply misunderstood the meaning. He just surpassed his own limit rather than actually becoming this god like being. Here though it seems BB actually did become a higher dimensional being.

Of course the thing is that would imply the likes of BB and Gilgamesh would be bumped all the way up to Tier 2.

From what I understand we would have to prove that every dimension is infinite times greater than the preceeding one if we want her to really be considered 8-D. Which, to my knowledge, we can't. I haven't found a single explanation regarding dimensions in Nasuverse. Avalon mentions 6-D, the Moon Cell mentions 8-D but aside from that, nothing. Solomon, in Grand Order, thinks that Divine Spirits reside in a higher dimension and that's it. We are given no further explanation.

The quote about her crossing infinite distance seems to be achieved by hax, rather than speed alone, but I don't know what you think about that.

The first quote is the one that is most likely to be accepted, although I don't know what kind of ability that is.

You mean the 3-D world being seen as a book? That alone should have her placed as at least 5-D which again as a 5-D being should bump her all the way up to tier 2 along with a couple others.

Unless I'm missing something.

When you mentioned the 3-D world/universe being viewed as a book the first thing that popped into mind was Mr. Mxy from DC. and he's in Tier 2 just for being a being of the 5th dimension right?

Eh there's this guy who kind of tackled it from a similar angle but again.. Having Her become a higher dimensional being would imply herself and Gil would be at least Universal.


http://aminoapps.com/page/anime/1845726/how-strong-gilgamesh-fate-extra-ccc-really-is

As Swag stated, it's virtually impossible to prove that these dimensions are higher dimensions outside of stray statements here and there (i.e. statements that if Mashu's Obscurant Wall of Chalk were ranked higher, it'd be able to block attacks from a higher-order dimension and that reaching Akasha would make the person a "being of a higher dimension").

Cosmic Awareness could be a thing for BB, but at the very least she should have Time Travel from this.

Doesn't said Time Travel stem from her being a higher dimensional being? If she sees the third dimension how Mr. Mxy a 5-D Imp sees it, what other explanation than she also became at least a 5-D being?

I understand we can't prove that they are higher dimensions but then what would the explanation be? especially for the likes of her time travel.

It doesn't sound like Cosmic Awareness to me:

"User is aware of anything that affects them on a universal scale including threats, anything that would affect them in any way, or even somebody talking about them."

"BB enveloped the moon cell. In that moment she was already in past, present and future" - or something along those lines.

BB also ate Tiamat, so her gaining Tiamat's omnipresence throughout time and space isn't impossible.

I also saw some claims in other translations where BB said she could destroy the universe. Also it should be noted that because of Kingprotea's skills, she can create universe sized dimensions since Kingprotea could fill one.

You all made some pretty good points.

I think that Tiamat's ability might apply to BB as well. Since she got their Authority, I don't see why it wouldn't. To be honest, her ability sounds more like Tiamat's omnipresence than Cosmic Awareness.

Galaxian, I agree with you. She did make a claim that she can destroy the universe. Also, she sealed Kingprotea away, and if we use logic here, she had to seal her in a universe-sized place that constantly expands due to Kingprotea's ability.


We'll see what Repp and others think about those ideas.

@Swagpack

It should be noted that BB also inflicted an age-reversion curse on Kingprotea before she sealed her to prevent her from getting too big, so I'm not sure if a universe sized Imaginary Space Pocket Dimension is necessary.

@Repp

Does Fox Tail happen before the events of the game? This is what is written on her page:

"Although she is the lowest ranked of the Sakura Five, she possesses the greatest presence in SE.RA.PH. through her ability to grow infinitely, causing BB to seal her into Imaginary Number Space prior to the events of the game. "

"During the events of Fate/Extra CCC: Fox Tail, BB inflicts a curse upon Kingprotea that rapidly reverts her back into a child as she continues to grow, which eventually broke her psyche due to the constant stress of growing up and reverting into a child over a short period of time."

@Swag

Fox Tail is an alternate continuity manga, I just used it for her profile since it was the only place where she appeared in person.

The age-regression curse was also implied in the game itself:

"Babyfication

The opposite of aging.

BB created this cursed skill with much difficulty in order to impose some restrictions on Kingprotea.

Once Kingprotea's age has surpassed a predefined value this curse restores her to the state she was in at a younger age. It's a protective process that prevents her from ever reaching an adult age. This curse starts to take effect when Kingprotea reaches age 12, and over time restores her back to her 8 year old state. When returned to the age of 8 her growth resumes again, so this cycle is a repeating loop."

There is also that statement where she treatens to destroy the universe, but I don't know. Maybe it's best if we leave her tier where it is.

Monarch mentioned/suggested that the ability we see in the first paragraph could be considered omnipresence throughout space and time, due to her absorbing Tiamat. What do you think about that?

She should at least get a looking at for that ability. Being in every point of time has to account for some sort of upgrade.

Bump

This is the only Nasuverse revision thread currently remaining. We should discuss what to do with BB.

Monarch mentioned that BB could possibly be omnipresent like Tiamat since she absorbed Tiamat among other beings.

There is also this: "I don't know how many hours in the future it was, but the important thing is that BB reached the Moon Cell. That fact can't be changed, no matter what."

This might serve as further evidence backing that claim. From my perspective, it looks like temporal paradox immunity, which Tiamat also possesses. I could be misinterpreting this. Rin states she is in both past and the future.

Also, is this useful?: "Meanwhile, the core of the Moon Cell is a simulator of parallel worlds, calculating all kinds of possibilities, past and present and future all existing at the same time. In the other words, an existence of the archival space."

BB enveloped the core of the Moon Cell and became the brain - 2-C BB!

Not really. Maybe though. I mean, Castlevania has 2-C vampire hunters for being able to kill Dracula. Wouldn't be the first time a bunch of people who all seem a hell of a lot weaker jump to multi-universal level

Now tell me how it would be an outlier and PIS and no one else in Fate is that powerful so no one can scale to it

@Monarch

Well I am pretty sure that Kiara is a wall that prevents any BB upgrade. At least it seems to me that way. Well, no one is stopping anyone from saying that Kiara absorbing BB is PIS or an outlier. It just seems that BB as the Moon Cell is much more than 5-B to 5-A

I agree with SwagPack, I find it hard to believe that with everything BB has going as the Moon Cell she only sits at her current tier.

Well when I first came here BB was tier 7 SO, there is always room for an upgrade.

Of course. I mean look at someone like Griffith/Femto He was 5-B and he dropped all the way down to 8-C

It's the other direction of course but just goes to show drastic changes in tier DO happen.

@Aizen

Of course. New things are added to the verse, old things are interpreted in a better way and so on. Couple of years ago Nasuverse was considered to have just a certain amount of parallel universes/timelines. Now, according to Extella, it consists of infinite amount of timelines and the World/Earth actively removes a few timelines in a fixed interval.


So, I'm not really good at physics, mathematics and similar subjects, but I can try to assess these things from a philosophical standpoint. Currently, BB is considered to be a mere 3-D being, just like us. I, as a 3-D being, can interact with the 3-D objects in the world, yet the fourth dimension, time, is completely unknown to me. I cannot interact with it in any way and I am completely bound by it. Rin says that BB can not only interact freely with time, just like we can with 3-D objects, but she looks at time as a book, or a drawing, the same way we look at 2-D objects. Therefore, there is a problem when we regard her as a 3-D being, when she seems to be so much above us.

Next, Kingprotea, created to have capabilities of infinite growth, sealed away by BB. Reppuzan said BB used a curse to prevent her from growing to such extremes as "universal level". We could assume that BB, as a precaution, sealed her away in a place that could match her growth rate, but let's not. Let's even say that BB relied heavily on that curse. From the quote in my original post we can see that the distance between the seventh and the eight layer is infinite. The only way to cross it is with the Moon Cell's help. BB managed to cross it via her hax. So BB, with her hax, is capable of crossing infinite distance and this is not the first time she managed to do something which would usually take infinity to do. That quote does prove that there exists some kind of infinite area in the Moon Cell.

Third thing, the quote says the Moon Cell's core simulates parallel worlds and calculates all kinds of possibilities. Seems kinda interesting. Another interesting point is that Tiamat's abilities, such as omnipresence and immunity to time paradox, could be attributed to BB, as the quotes do suggest that she possesses those kind of abilities. And the fact that she absorbed Tiamat.


"BB's eyes lack their usual shine. They're usually full of energy, even if they're wicked, but now they've become cold and mechanical. Which is why I can tell that this is a serious proposal, BB isn't playing around now. I don't know what she'll do to me if I refuse..!

Gil: Until the end of the universe? How generous of you. Then will you end the universe if she refuses? It wouldn't be very balanced otherwise, would it?

Gilgamesh turns BB's words against her provocatively. ...if that's any indication, he's ready to shoot down BB on the spot. Looking at me and Gilgamesh like this...

BB: Of course I will end it. If Hakuno Kishinami does not sever her contract with Gilgamesh, I will bring down all electrical power.

She's saying she'll destroy the universe. The girl in black announces it, not as a bluff or a metaphor, but as if it were natural.

Gilgamesh: Oh? You may have gone out of control, but you're still a managerial AI. Aren't you unable to kill Masters?

BB: I do not presently have the right to kill Masters, but it is possible for me to make this sector collapse. I can end all of you and myself as well if necessary. This is the worst and final measure. I am prepared for complaints from all intelligent life in the solar system. Miss Hakuno Kishinami. I will propose it again. Please sever your contract with this Servant."


They use the term "universe" instead of anything else, like "area" or "reality marble". They even go an extra mile to say "it's not a bluff or a metaphor, this is real, she is serious". And then she says she can collapse "this sector". They explicitily use the term "universe" for that sector.

You could say it's an outlier, or "just a statement", for one or two things. But I don't think we dismiss everything presented here. I accept any idea you have, any debunking etc. "She was defeated by X who is tier Y and therefore she cannot be upgraded." is not a valid argument.

Well with your first point, and as I've said before, it's description is much like Mr. Myx from DC who is a 5-D being and is in Tier 2 for that and all that comes with it. Unless someone gives hard facts as to otherwise I don't know why BB who has the same desciption of how she views the 3-D world along with similar powers doesn't scale in a similar manner.

As for your last point,

I accept any idea you have, any debunking etc. "She was defeated by X who is tier Y and therefore she cannot be upgraded." is not a valid argument.

This is tricky because naturally those who defeated her should scale to her but this Wiki is slowly getting rid of stat scaling as shown in the other thread regarding the Servant Stat Scaling

Personally, I feel like the feats that each character perform should be used for scaling as much as possible. Archer Gilgamesh has an Endurance rating of C, but he can do things like survive Kiara's Noble Phantasm in Fate/Extra CCC. It's pretty clear that the rankings aren't some kind of universal guideline. They mainly apply to in-universe abilities such as needed A-Rank attacks to strike past Heracles' God Hand.


From everything here, it seems that BB has some sort of higher dimensional nature attributed with her perspective of reality and the beings she has absorbed. Plus, the fact that we know about Extella's lore going with the infinite timelines and Quantum Time Locks. Her feats within the context of the story should be taken above the Servant Stat Scaling.

So then where do we go from here?

Well now we wait until someone, an administator that supports Nasuverse page preferably, comes and evaluates what I wrote. Hopefully soon. Then we need more input on this, we would have to discuss what I wrote and come to some kind of conclusion. If no one can find flaws in my logic regarding this subject, then an administrator or someone knowledgeable should propose how we should implement this on her page.

Well, this seems pretty reasonable to you and Galaxian, right? I don't think I misinterpreted this whole thing.

What are your suggested changes? Summarize them

@Monarch

In the 24th post, this long one above yours, I explained my thoughts on this and listed the things we should discuss. I didn't directly propose changes because I would rather we throw our ideas here and discuss them, then reach some sort of conclusion if those things are valid enough for an upgrade.

I feel it's reasonable. I just think we need more input and ideas. Since the way I see it this does call for an upgrade as BB displays the characterstics of AT LEAST a 5-D being so.


So i'd like for someone to show me otherwise or add on to it.

Well, I haven't read through this thread, but if it helps we tend to ignore claims of higher-dimensional stature if it greatly contradicts a character's established power level.

Antvasima said:

Well, I haven't read through this thread, but if it helps we tend to ignore claims of higher-dimensional stature if it greatly contradicts a character's established power level.

Click to expand...

She is not being upgraded to Tier 2 or 1.

Okay.

She definitely isn't 5-D or higher

If the quote on multiple parallel worlds created/simulated the Moon Cell is to be believed, as is the quote saying BB enveloped and became the moon cell is accepted though, she might become 2-C

I love how everything I said so far can be dismissed with mere "She is not being upgraded". No explanation, no arguments. Just one "no". Is this how characters are usually revisioned here or is Nasuverse special?

So, is someone going to discuss what I wrote or write their own idea?

@Monarch

Universe of Record refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as 'Time Submitted to Record'. such that the Past, Present and Future can be distinguished as categorically discrete entities per a chronological record of proceedings. The timelines represented withing the Adjacent World Simulator of the Moon Cell Automaton may be collectively considered a 'Universe of Record'.

"Universe" refers to a domain that encompasses space and time.

This is from Type-Moon wiki. They have original source in japanese as well.

Monarch Laciel said:

She definitely isn't 5-D or higher
If the quote on multiple parallel worlds created/simulated the Moon Cell is to be believed, as is the quote saying BB enveloped and became the moon cell is accepted though, she might become 2-C

Click to expand...

What would prevent it from being accepted though?

@Mathew

Could you please explain why?

Just flat out saying no doesn't do us much good.

I agree, we need some sort of clarification on why this wouldn't be the case.