• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

BB (Fate) revision

Status
Not open for further replies.
@Swag

I should also mention Tomoe Gozen's Noble Phantasm, which is also able to recreate "every" parallel world within the blade and view every possible event.

There are also multiple dimensional statements and at least two higher-dimensional statements. In addition, we have multiple infinite parallel world statements between the Second Magic, Fate/Extella, and the above.

I can't say if this is enough for an upgrade, but I do agree that this is being dismissed too easily.
 
I don't see why it wouldn't be enough for an upgrade.

The evidence seems sufficent enough and the only counter argument has been "no"
 
Exactly my point. It's not like all these statements are in one work. They appear in Stay Night with introduction of Avalon, Extra CCC, Grand Order, Extella.

Like I explained, Rin states that BB sees time as a book. We don't see time as a book, we don't even comprehend time. So why is BB on the same level of existence as we are?


I've been reading source material from Extella regarding Quantum Time-Locks. If I understood everything correctly, it seems that the Moon Cell and the World work together on this one. The Moon Cell simulates, observes, calculates parallel universes (which it seems there are infinite amount of them) and calculates all kinds of possibilities. Then the World implements a Quantum Time-Lock on a certain event and erases timelines that are not good. It seems that the Moon Cell has a huge role in Nasuverse.

"In the present work, the objective of Archimedes was to manufacture an Outcome whereby 'Moon Cell is destroyed' prior to the manifestation of the coming Quantum Time-Lock, establishing a reality premised upon this condition. Whereas originally, such a development could not occur, Archimedes repeatedly shifted between worlds to the end of achieving his goal. From Archimedes' perspective, so long as the operation of Moon Cell could be entirely brought to a halt prior to the fall of the subsequent Quantum Time-Lock, victory would be his. However, even if there were outcomes in which Archimedes was victorious, a route/timeline in which the complete termination of Moon Cell's processes occurred could not be reached." So he couldn't stop the Moon Cell.

"The World is not one, rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds."
 
I've also been looking into some of the Quantum Time Lock and alternate world materials, and it seems that the alternate worlds are very important to the Nasuverse's own structure itself. Fate, Tsukihime, Kara no Kyoukai, and all of the works canon to the verse are all alternate realities.

There are worlds with the Fate system where Servants are summoned, and there are worlds where the Dead Apostle Ancestors are the antagonists.
 
And the supporting evidence continues to grow.

Also that's a good point, all these statements come from different places and there are several of them.

"Like I explained, Rin states that BB sees time as a book. We don't see time as a book, we don't even comprehend time. So why is BB on the same level of existence as we are?"

See this is something I would also like an answer to aswell. The only other answer I can think of is BB has a very literal GOD VIEW like in some games only for her well... Her god view makes her godlike. But this explanation doesn't make nearly as much sense as she just straight up evolved.
 
@Reppuzan Can you summarise the arguments here?
 
The primary argument for BB's upgrade is:

1) She threatened to crush a a Universe-sized space to kill the protagonist in an unusually serious and straight tone. It's confirmed to be universe sized by the fact that it can contain Kingprotea, who is explicitly stated to be able to grow large enough to become a "Universe-level disaster", albeit at a rate slightly slower than the expansion of the universe. In addition, BB defeated and sealed Kingprotea despite her immense size and greater standing in the Moon Cell compared to the other members of the Sakura Five created by BB.

2) BB is stated to have a "higher-dimensional perspective" on space-time, being able to able interact with and view the past and future simultaneously and affect every kind of possibility in the past, present, and future. Time to her is like reading a book, and she can flip to any point in time however she wishes.

3) The Moon Cell that BB merges with is able to simulate entire timelines with their own space-time from endless possibilities. As the "Brain" of the Moon Cell, she is able to freely mix and match possibilities to her liking and shifted around events in the past to prevent deaths and work events in her favor.

4) The idea of infinite timelines has been confirmed in two of Nasu's works, Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night, with the introduction of Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg, who uses the Second Magic that explicitly operates on the basis of traveling through an infinite number of timelines created by endless possibilities. As seen in Fate/Strange Fake, he can also manipulate these timelines to some extent, as she got Ayaka Saijyou to be the Master of Saber in that timeline.

Currently, the primary argument against BB being upgraded is the fact that she is absorbed by Kiara Sessyoi, who has not explicitly displayed similar feats to my knowledge.
 
Okay. Thanks. So should she logically be Low 2-C or 2-A?
 
@Antvasima

Due to taking over the Moon Cell and its ability to simulate countless timelines along with its ability to explicitly transfer to any one of an infinite number of timelines, she would probably be closer to 2-B or 2-A if this upgrade goes through.

However, this would throw Nasuverse power-scaling into disarray.
 
Okay. That is a problem. Perhaps we could simply consider the fact that she lost as extreme plot-induced stupidity?
 
Maybe put everyone else at unknown? Write a note that they were able to defeat her, but haven't displayed that level of power themselves. Honestly, the only one I see getting scaled from her is Gilgamesh. She was scared of him to an extent if I'm not mistaken, and he was able to screw around with the Moon Cell.

PIS would work as well, as Antvasima said.
 
As I mentioned earlier, we could simply consider it as the same type of plot-induced stupidity as Superman harming the Anti-Monitor.
 
Which characters are scaled from her current statistics?
 
Off the top of my head, Saver (As a fellow Bodhisattva he should be roughly as strong as Kiara), All of the "Types" (ORT, Type Jupiter, Type Mars, Type Uranus e.t.c. They are the strongest beings on their respective planets and are relatively comparable), Gilgamesh's Full Power, Archer, Nero, and Tamamo with the Root of the Beginning (Defeated BB and Kiara), and Amaterasu (Is a high-class Divine Spirit that only a being as powerful as a full-power Arcueid, who is Archetype: Earth and Type Moon, can defeat).
 
@Reppuzan

Hmm. That is a problem, and I am not certain how to solve it. Perhaps you could create a new highlighted thread asking for staff input?
 
Wouldn't they just scale to her much like in Castlevania?

Likely not all of them but at least the Types and Gil?

I'm not too familiar with the others so I'm not sure how they could/would scale to her.
 
Just saying of an earlier comment to Swag and Aizen: Matthew's not known to simply give out detailed explanations as to why he thinks something is not right or whatever of the sort such as this. I do agree in a way that this would cause some power level problems in Fate (as usual) and that of Rep's comment, but i find his way of doing things like that pretty low considering he's an admin or at least should be a user that should properly explain something rather than say one to two words or, in cases where he doesn't give a flying ****, close a thread when all he's doing is at times make him look bad.

And i'm not only insulting him of his role, i'm also speaking of the truth of how he acts.

Anyways rant/"explanation" at the side, BB's upgrade sounds cool and seems to be a bit of more..."sense"? But Rep and i did talk about it on that it would, once again as he said above and given he at least knows what he's talking here than i do (i'm WAY still getting into here, btw), really cause the whole power level of the verse to get into messy stuff.

I'm slightly into not getting it but for the most part, i'm rather neutral going by hearing both side of this upgrade.
 
@Ant

I first want to get the input of the other members of the Staff and some other knowledgeable members on the validity of these upgrades.

I'll message them now and see if they are interested in responding.
 
Would Gilgamesh have the best argument for being scaled to BB? He resided in the Far Side due to his immense power, he was able to defy the Moon Cell on several occasions, he broke some kind of wall in the Moon Cell during Extella, and he defeated BB.

Scaling aside, we had some pretty good points and everyone contributed here. I know there is a lot of text here, but we should really go through every piece of evidence so that we don't give a character lower or higher tier than they deserve.

Both Aizen and I are curious about the whole "viewing time as a book" thing, and that was actually the main reason I started this thread.


Edit: BB demanded that Hakuno terminates his contract with Gilgamesh. She was willing to kill herself along with them if that's not the case. Gilgamesh broke the Moon Cell's rule that stated he can only appear on the Far Side. This is from Extella: "Gilgamesh appeared in this land of his own volition by ripping apart the suddenly unstable border inside SE.RA.PH that separates the face of the moon from the Far Side."
 
@Aizen: No problem.

@Swag: Hmm...well it is pretty explained here, i'm still rather not sure if this will go through or not.

Having more input on this, including the staff's if they bother, would perhaps help me better at deciding this...
 
@Aizen

As I recall, Gilgamesh is undoubtably the most powerful Heroic Spirit and possessed various things that would break the rules of the Holy Grail War. For example, he possessed his own Command Seals, allowing him to basically choose who he wanted his Master to be and preventing BB from taking control of him.

He also burnt through the Moon Cell's own rulings, appearing on the Near Side even though it should have been a functional impossibility and defying its auto-deletion of Hakuno at the end of the Holy Grail War to take them to live on a planet 1,500 light years away even though it shouldn't be possible for a Spiritron based body to exist outside of the Moon Cell.
 
Well, the speed upgrade for Extra CCC servants was done by you and Reppuzan. Kami posted a few times and few other regular members were included, but nobody really seemed interested. This might be a major upgrade and could really use more input.

Reppuzan provided more explanations for Gilgamesh. Thank you for that.
 
So yea with all that said in mind, If this goes through I think Gil undoubtably, has the best argument for being scaled to BB, Maybe something like he's in the same ball park as BB considering she was Scared of him (amongst EVERYTHING else mentioned) and have the likes of the other 3 (Archer, Nero, Tamamo) Scale slightly weaker?
 
Kiara seems more like a different entity altogether from BB because despite absorbing the Alter Egos, she has her own Noble Phantasms and nethods of attacking.

She doesn't seem to be able to perfectly replicate BB's feats on her own.

It should also be noted that the Extra CCC Servants needed a boost to even harm her because of her authority. Nobody was able to harm her until they matched that Authority.
 
While you could call it an outlier if something like that occurs once or even twice in a work. But here we have indications of such level of power across multiple Nasuverse works. Both Extra CCC and Extella imply that the Moon Cell possesses that kind of power. I even think Grand Order mentions something about that.
 
@Galaxian

It is true the others needed a boost but what matters is they did reach that level of power. Although if it does go through it should be something noted.I suppose we should be wondering about whether this'll even go through before trying to figure out how others would scale to BB. The rough sketch though would be like BB>Types>Gilgamesh>Other 3 servants right?
 
Gilgamesh would be on the same level as BB. The others are kinda iffy. They haven't shown that kind of feats.

Cal, what's your reasoning? Maybe we can provide more evidence or explain things better.
 
well wait. Swag, isn't the moon cell and quantum time lock responsible for like the entire nasuverse?

I'm pretty sure that would call for 2-A right?

Unless I misunderstood something when you and Galaxian briefly posted about it.
 
Yes it is. The Moon Cell is one of the two 'things' that manage entirety of Nasuverse. Moon Cell observes, calculates, simulates parallel worlds and possibilities. The World imposes Quantum Time-Locks and culls the universes that are not needed. Without the Moon Cell, Quantum Time-Locks will not be implemented. That's why Archimedes tries to stop the Moon Cell, and fails every time. The quote states that even if Archimedes emerges victorious, there can never exist a timeline where the Moon Cell stops its processes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
Servant Scaling (Moon Cell) - Downgrade Proposal
Replies
10
Views
2K
CrimsonStarFallen
CrimsonStarFallen
OuterLine0
  • Locked
Nasuverse Tier 0 Update
Replies
11
Views
4K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
ByArrow
Arrowverse CRT: Extra Temporal Dimension
Replies
3
Views
839
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
BasedNecoScaler69
  • Locked
Moon cell Ultimate One physiology.
Replies
11
Views
1K
BasedNecoScaler69
BasedNecoScaler69
Ednaxel2
  • Locked
Toeiverse Cell Upgrade (3-A)
Replies
15
Views
1K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Back
Top