Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Concepts

[Dragonmasterxyz]

btw I am done with replying to this for today. I'll see how this thread develops by tomorrow.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Bobsican I knew about that and this is why I said that the "heart of the world" would be of conceptual nature.

But just that. If everything has a heart, only the heart of the whole world would be of conceptual nature, every singular heart would just be the just be a particular essence, just like a soul, mind or any disembodied consciousness-type thing.

And by "world" I mean the set of every single thing in a certain level of existence, not a parallels universes or something like that.

 

[Accelerate420]

From what I'm seeing, Dragonmaster seems to be making sense. I really don't buy a lot of the concepts being tossed out here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If "conceptually in piece" is flowery language, in what state was Sora in the Final World and what were the Sora's he was collecting?

I'm just posting this again since nobody answered this.

 

[Bobsican]

Since it's the highest point of their existence, What acts like regenerating from the heart or destroying one qualify for? Obviously soul manip or a higher form of it is a no as the verse explicitly considers the "heart" and the "soul" being separate things. Seriously, it's pretty blatant and there's a ton of lore and context backing up "hearts" being of abstract nature, essences are heavily tied with concepts by definition, for instance: "es┬Àsence /╦êesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character." - The OP, feel free to look this up, variants of the definition remark to being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge, for example, meaning that, yes, this backs up "hearts" being concepts. Unlike the "Body" or the "Soul", a "heart" defines the subject's, even things that aren't alive whatsoever have "hearts"

Anyways...

@Dragonmasterxyz

Chirithy's statement is talking about how you aren't supposed to used the Power of Waking like that, not that it can't restore erased hearts, leaving this clear to avoid further misconceptions.

 

[AKM sama]

Dragonmaster and Triforce are making the most sense according to me.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragonmasterxyz & Executor N0

So what should we do here in summary?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Coming back from your heart being destroyed is simply returning from nothingness in some way shape or form.

We disagree with every single person being abstracts as we have noted above.

Many people (including people more knowledgeable on this stuff than I) also seem to agree that the OP is not convincing for the changes they wish to make. I do not have the time to constantly go in circles with Bob over this and so I will let others air their opinions on this.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Bobsican Yes, Souls and Hearts are different things in KH, but it's just the name. Names mean nothing unless we understand their meaning. As far as I know, the Soul of a franchise X can be the equivalent to the Heart while the Mind of X can be the Soul in KH.

I know what a essence is and I already said that I agree with the hearts being essences, but you also need to understand what I'm saying while I'm talking about essences, this is why I said to look in my blog in my very first reply.

Essences are what makes you... "you" and they can exists in multiple numbers thought different levels of being. The "Being" in KH appears to be separated into three things, body, soul and then heart. The name doesn't matter, we should simply care about the number of levels and how they interact with each other.

The "heart" being more "abstract" than the "soul" doesn't make it "Abstract Existence" as is with the "Abstract Existence" page, this is only to universal concepts that are embodied by what is understood as a "singular" being.

As far as I understood, only the "Kingdom Heart" would be a "universal concept" thing, every other heat would only be another metaphysical particular essence just like the Soul. It isn't the same thing in the KH-verse, but for us, we don't really need to say that it's something that is equal to a conceptual existence, as far as our pages are concerned.

If you want to make this "higher metaphysical essence" to equal to "concepts", we would need to change our pages to work with this other idea.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Coming back from your heart being destroyed is simply returning from nothingness in some way shape or form.

We disagree with every single person being abstracts as we have noted above.

Many people (including people more knowledgeable on this stuff than I) also seem to agree that the OP is not convincing for the changes they wish to make. I do not have the time to constantly go in circles with Bob over this and so I will let others air their opinions on this.

Even if hearts don't don't get accepted as concepts, Vanitas returning from getting his heart destroyed should be Mid-Godly Regenerationn since the body and the soul/mind got destroyed as well and regenerating from that is the definition for Mid-Godly on the page for Regenerationn. In fact it would be superior to regular Mid-Godly Regenerationn since the heart got destroyed too and is explicitly separate from the body and the soul/mind.

Actually, I disagree with every character from Kingdom Hearts getting Abstract Existence as well even if hearts being concepts gets accepted. In my opinion everyone having hearts would simply be part of the fundamental rules of the verse and characters from other verses would also have hearts in versus threads involving KH characters due to verse equalization. Therefore I think that actually listing it on the profiles for characters who cannot actually do anything with it is redundant. Characters that should have Abstract Existance, if hearts get accepted as concepts, would be in my opinion those that can still make meaningful actions while being reduced to nothing but a heart or those that do not consist out of anything but a heart or darkness (which seems to be already accepted as concept) to begin with.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Soul is just a spiritual body, not an abstract concept. Example of an abstract concept or conceptual manipulation would be to erase the concept of pain. And now no one in the Universe/Multiverse can feel pain at all until someone recreates the concept of pain.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The Soul is just a spiritual body, not an abstract concept. Example of an abstract concept or conceptual manipulation would be to erase the concept of pain. And now no one in the Universe/Multiverse can feel pain at all until someone recreates the concept of pain.

Nobody argued for the soul to be a concept.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we can probably apply what Dragon and Executor have suggested at this point, rather than repeat ourselves.

 

[AKM sama]

Agreed.

 

[Bobsican]

Wait, I still have new things to point out.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What would get applied?

 

[Bobsican]

>They're made of universal concepts

By that logic we'd have to remove characters that can conceptually kill you from having conceptual manipulation.

Doraemon's concept manip needs to go now since it's not him affecting it universally

Conceptual Manipulation (He has various conceptual armaments within his arsenal)

Gilgamesh's concept manip needs to go now since it's not universal it's just armamemnts

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3. Stated in the manga to be capable of erasing or restoring demons' names like his father)

I could go on and on, there's clearly double standards here.

Arguing that a heart isn't universal because it's singular would remove like 99% of conceptual users from having such a power

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You are quoting from Discord?

 

[Bobsican]

Yep, it's pretty solid as it is, especially considering half of the VSBW KH experts in there are tired of the site to the point I have to be the one transfering information here, and yes, they all agree with the content on the OP, although I doubt that changes much.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Why are they tired of the site? Has something specific happened?

 

[Bobsican]

I think they just got tired of having to deal with the knowledgeable staff over double standards and too many fallacies or so as far I remember, the last time we ended up getting a wiki-wide CRT over certain standards IIRC.

However, that's derailing from the main topic.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Then make a point to remove them. Not everyone here was there when those powers were accepted. Don't assume everyone who disagrees with this, agrees with that. Feel free to downgrade them. This is not about them though, if you all feel we have a double standard to Kingdom Hearts, how about you target those verses or simply go elsewhere to peoplr who will accept your changes.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean from what I've heard, Fate's concept stuff actually may not fit into our concept standards for the random conceptual weapons due to not being universal, and I think kep was to look further in to that.

Doraemon also doesn't have a very good explanation, so sure remove him. I don't get concept manip for being able to hold concept art or whatever, and everything participates in concepts in some way.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Does that mean we need general revisions about Conceptual Manipulation?

 

[Accelerate420]

A lot of Fate's conceptual manipulation is closer to casuality/fate manipulation iirc. Just a quick tidbit.

 

[Bobsican]

Does that mean we need general revisions about Conceptual Manipulation?

TBH I wouldn't mind this, as the issue appears that KH is too unique to properly fit into the current variants of Concept Manip, so perhaps some editing here and there is needed to deal with this sort of cases, assuming concepts indeed have to be "universal" in scale to qualify for concept manip, as apparently there's plenty of cases on the wiki where that's not the case and yet they have it.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Bobsican I don't know about these verses, but if it's the case, I agree.

To be fair, I would agree more with revision the whole "conceptual/abstract/essence" things. There are some verses were the use of the word "concept" is accepted as "conceptual manipulation", but if we are going to really understand the very concept of a "platonic concept", we will learn that even souls, spirits and minds can be a "concept", or simply a "essence".

It's more the case of higher levels of being than really with words like concepts or spirits or even souls.

If our standards simply aren't good enough to study these cases, they would need to be updated.

After all, if we are dealing with our standards as not being good enough and verses would need to be "treated different" because of that until proper revision, I agree that we should simply update our standards.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that several wrongs do not make a right, and about that the other verses should be updated as well if they have inaccurate information.

 

[Bobsican]

I guess I can go ahead and do a CRT over "Non-Universal" concepts regarding Concept Manip?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regardless of whether or not individual hearts qualify as concepts, affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. This would apply to the X-Blade for allowing it's user to control Kingdom Hearts and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold back Kingdom Hearts using their Keyblades. Can I go ahead and add it?

 

[Bobsican]

I guess I can go ahead and do a CRT over "Non-Universal" concepts regarding Concept Manip?

Quoting because this seems to be important, as the "Non-Universal" concepts are the main thing of this CRT, so this can't really be properly discussed further without the CRT above being done first.

 

[Bobsican]

Here's the CRT

 

[Antvasima]

I will check.

 

[Sera_EX]

I've been told by Yumi-tan that the concept of one's indidivuality (usually represented as a "heart" (kokoro) is not specifically conceptual in the way westerners understand the term. It's just what makes someone them,

Kingdom Hearts has a lot of Jungian Psychology behind it (and Daoist Cosmology, but that's another topic). So we're dealing with Jungian archetypes, not concepts.

Concept in fiction is a buzz word (look no further than Nasuverse for examples), it's usually fluff. It's why I try to observe the original words spoken and (due to not needing subtitles) ignore subs entirely.

I don't know what the wiki classifies Jungian Archetypes as, but whatever we do, that's pivotal to understanding this and well help out with Persona and Xeno revisions in the future.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Jungian Archtypes are Type 2 according to the NIGHTS thread, and they're why NIGHTS has it. However, I've heard that scaling fiction to RL concepts are very dubious, and it's not that verses should be upgraded, but NIGHTS should be downgraded.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't recall NIGHTS type 2 conceptual manipulation ever being accepted by staff.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Strange, it's on the profile.

Ultima iirc decided on it being Type 2, transcending reality, but not Type 1.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's completely off topic to this thread and the previous thread appears to still be open so you should ask there. However, I did look at it and it mostly seemed like it was just memory manipulation and dream manipulation. The word Concept appears to be thrown around as flowery language.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thread is hard to read, links are slapped everywhere. But I'll look I guess, because like Sera said it can be a pretty big buff depending on if it's accepted.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regardless of whether or not individual hearts qualify as concepts, affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. This would apply to the X-Blade for allowing it's user to control Kingdom Hearts and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold back Kingdom Hearts using their Keyblades. Can I go ahead and add it?

Just posting this again since nobody answered.