Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Concepts

[Nehz_XZX]

What do we put on the pages of the KH characters who would have it then?

 

[Executor_N0]

Well, if hearts aren't concepts, what are they then? They are not part of the body, are treated separate from the soul and the mind and exist everywhere. As what would the ability to manipulate hearts qualify?

It would simply be another level, or simply state, of existence, a franchise could have infinite number of them, but what makes something a concept is different than simply being from a higher level of existence.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Everyone and everything has a heart. How is that a higher level of existence? That still doesn't answer what sort of ability manipulating hearts is.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Xehanort didn't kill Kairi. That's all I'm saying here.

This video at 20:52: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co8TBDdadfQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1256. Chirithy says that Sora already brought back six hearts after they've faded from existence with the implication that Kairi's heart also faded from existence

This picture: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/641817356149981195/675789612421087279/20200123_010219.jpg. Sorry, the text isn't entirely visible but apparently no better picture was available.

I know that I wrote that we should focus on hearts, light and darkness being concepts first but someone requested me to bring up these two links so I simply wanted to do that.

 

[Executor_N0]

I could have a soul and it could exists at another state of existence, it doesn't really have anything to do with "higher/lower" unless it's something that's said in the cosmology.

Levels of existence is simply measure of how complex some "thing" is. If I read everything correctly, then KH simply has a cosmology with three levels of being, this has nothing to do with conceptual or another thing. It's just how many things makes someone, be that being.

The heart being the "essence" of something is just another way of saying that.

EDIT: The power is something specific that we simply doesn't have a page for that, at least we could specify that as above standard Non-Physical Interaction. I have plans to do something about franchises with multiple levels of existence, but I'm still working with the blog.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Hearts are definitely non-physical but the page for Non-Physical Interaction specifies that it is for "beings" so it doesn't really fit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Triforce and DragonMaster

Same. Not buying the OP.

 

[Elizhaa]

Hearts are definitely non-physical but the page for Non-Physical Interaction specifies that it is for "beings" so it doesn't really fit.

Objects can also be non-physical or intangible; as the creator of the page here, I will say it does Non-Physical Interaction does apply to those too. I guess I will have to update the page soon or later since there is confusion on the wording.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Objects can also be non-physical or intangible; as the creator of the page here, I will say it does it does apply to those too. I guess I will have to update the page soon or later since there is confusion on the wording.

You should probably do that.

 

[Bobsican]

To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.

That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.

Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

How do we treat Chirithy's statement about Sora being conceptually in pieces?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.

That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.
Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

Essence Manipulation is not Conceptual Manipulation though. Not once have we done that. Ex in fact just explained Essences here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.
Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

Essence Manipulation is not Conceptual Manipulation though. Not once have we done that. Ex in fact just explained Essences here.

He is still working on his main reply. Shouldn't you wait for that?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No because I am going over the false assumption that we treat "essence" as "concepts" which he stated. I will address his main reply when he posts it, simple as that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay.

 

[Bobsican]

1) The difference is that here it's by a concept, everyone in KH embodies their own concept, "heart", which is why.

2) Hardly any difference in practical use in this case respectively, so it is only a matter of how it's listed on a profile, so you can feel free to elaborate how it would be listed if we go by your notion, to be sure the differences beyond the way it's listed doesn't matter.

4) Xion never actually says she feels Kairi's heart, she didn't even went in detail either, so that's too dubious to take it like that without making assumptions.

As for your question regarding PoW, yes, it can restore "hearts", but as Chirithy said, it's not meant to be used like that, then again, it's done with Causality Manipulation as that has been accepted and discussed in past CRTs, so that doesn't change anything.

Wandering heart? Of course not, right at the start of Re:Mind, Sora had to collect the pieces of her "heart" across the past journey he did in the Keyblade Graveyard by time traveling, which isn't much different from him collecting the pieces of his own "heart" back when it got shattered.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bobsican, you should probably explain why Essence Manipulation is Conceptual Manipulation according to you since Dragonmasterxyz disagrees with that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"The Lich you've been fighting—it's not like other Heartless. It exists to usher hearts down to the depths of darkness." - Young Xehanort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CgBtEF6rNU&feature=youtu.be&t=29530

Just adding this regarding Sora bringing people back from the dead with the power of waking.

 

[Bobsican]

Very well, it's all in the OP, but I guess I shall summarize it:

First of all, as explained, this wasn't meant to point into all of that falling as "Essence Manipulation", as described in the OP, this supports Coneptual Manipulation, rather than it simply being another thing.

I'll go ahead and quote stuff from the OP as it seems a good chunk is being ignored:

- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs

- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45

- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt

- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s

- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsician: How do we know the "Heart" is always of an specific subject, though? Is there anything that prevents different darkness seizing the same Heart?

Please move this to another thread, this is somewhat off-topic.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

1) No they do not. They have a heart, they do not embody the "concept" of hearts. I still don't even buy hearts as concepts, but simply a higher form of existence.

4) So you basically are showing that her heart still existed. This contradicts these hearts being "erased" when there are still pieces that can be collected and put together.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs"

"Conceptually in pieces" is very flowery at base. Especially when the other evidence you have doesn't make the hearts out to be truly conceptual. Simply mentioning "conceptually" is not enough to prove anything. For a guy whose concept was apparently erased, he sure isn't having issues finding said concepts.

"Sora literally states that hearts are all around us"

Where? Link the exact scene. That also doesn't prove anything.

"The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence"

This doesn't make it conceptual. Dark Area Digimon are made up of darkness, but they aren't conceptual in nature. This is no different. Heart is made of light and darkness, doesn't mean it's conceptual.

 

[Executor_N0]

Hearts can be concepts just like they can be simply higher forms of existence or simply "metaphysical essences", none of them are mutually exclusive terms.

The problem right now is more a case of our pages not being adapted to deal with these types of cosmology in a very specific way. Right now the biggest point that would differ "conceptual" from simply "essences" would be: "Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of universal concepts". Universal as all the particular things that exists in a set of things.

This is what makes the "hearts" as not being "concepts" but simply "metaphysical essences". Is more a matter of "size" than really about difference because of levels of existence.

If the hearts are what make "you"... "you", then is a "particular essence" and not a "universal essence", and by that I mean a "universal concept" (Or simply a concept).

 

[Bobsican]

1) Why plural? They embody their own "heart", not hearts in general.

4) Sora time traveled to the past before the stuff happened to collect them, however

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If light and darkness are concepts and hearts are made of them, doesn't that mean hearts are made out of concepts? Wouldn't that be a different case compared to the Dark Area Digimon? (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know much about the Dark Area Digimon.)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.

4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, that's why before they qualified as just type 3 concepts, then Light and Darkness were found to qualify for type 2 concepts and so everything related to it (namely "hearts") also scaled to it, as explained in my blog from which a good chunk of the OP comes from

 

[Nehz_XZX]

1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.

4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

Regarding 4): If Sora time travels to a point before a heart ceased to exist in order to collect it, then there shouldn't be anything contradictory since the heart exists in the time he traveled to. It just wouldn't exist in the time he came from.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

4) Yes it is. Is this a different timeline's Kairi? Is this the same Kairi? The issue is that the current Kairi's heart should not exist in general. Yet he's able to put it back together. And even ignoring this, this is nothing but basic EE. Nothing truly conceptual.

 

[Bobsican]

1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.
4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

1) See my reply above regarding concept types

4) In the past it obviously still existed, Xehanort still erased her, unlike in Sora's case (in which it just got fragmented. It's literally stated that his heart had survived complete destruction because of Kairi. That's the entire reason how he even survived), while in Kairi's case... not so much.

And yes, it's the same timeline; having your concept erased totally qualifies as conceptual EE, Nobodies (which lack a "heart") are clear cases where not having a "heart" means you don't truly exist.

Now, for your other reply:

a) Conceptually in pieces is pretty explicit, it can't really be taken as anything else beyond the ridiculous "self-concept" stuff that already got debunked as Sora clearly remembers who he is and everything else as usual.

b) https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=286

c) See "a)"

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If "conceptually in pieces" is flowery language, in what state was Sora in the Final World and what were the Sora's he was collecting?

 

[Executor_N0]

@Bobsican And this is why I said that we need to be more clear about that. "singular essences" and "universal concepts" can exist at the same level, but still be different simply because the singular is a part of the universal.

Light and Darkness makes up all existence, well then this would be a universal. The heart is made up of light and darkness, this would still be at the same level, but it wouldn't be a concept. Is just like the darkness as a whole is a concept, but I destroying the darkness in your body isn't conceptual destruction. It is still at the "same level of being", but the darkness itself would be a concept, while the darkness in your body would just be a part of the whole, something that is "particular" and not "universal".

Light and Darkness as a whole would be a concept (Or something like that), but what is made of these two at the same level, wouldn't really be. If everything has an individual heart, then each of these hearts are simply particular essences, unique to each being.

To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

4) Yes it is. Is this a different timeline's Kairi? Is this the same Kairi? The issue is that the current Kairi's heart should not exist in general. Yet he's able to put it back together. And even ignoring this, this is nothing but basic EE. Nothing truly conceptual.

It would simply be the Kairi from the past. Kairi existed in the past which is why pieces of her heart that Sora could collect existed. Him collecting the pieces resulted in her being recompleted, brought to the Final World and then going to the present.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oh great, the wiki just ate my reply...>.>

Whatever, Ex explained it better....(I'm not retyping all that)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Bobsican And this is why I said that we need to be more clear about that. "singular essences" and "universal concepts" can exist at the same level, but still be different simply because the singular is a part of the universal.

Light and Darkness makes up all existence, well then this would be a universal. The heart is made up of light and darkness, this would still be at the same level, but it wouldn't be a concept. Is just like the darkness as a whole is a concept, but I destroying the darkness in your body isn't conceptual destruction. It is still at the "same level of being", but the darkness itself would be a concept, while the darkness in your body would just be a part of the whole, something that is "particular" and not "universal".

Light and Darkness as a whole would be a concept (Or something like that), but what is made of these two at the same level, wouldn't really be. If everything has an individual heart, then each of these hearts are simply particular essences, unique to each being.

To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

In that case, manipulating Kingdom Hearts should qualify as Conceptual Manipulation since it is the embodiment of all hearts. This would apply to the X-Blade which is explicitly used for that purpose and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold Kingdom Hearts back to some degree.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No one disagreed with manipulating being Conceptual Manipulation. The X-Blade is perfectly fine.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regular Keyblade Wielders would also qualify due to the Guardians of Light managing to hold Kingdom Hearts back to some degree.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No one disagreed with manipulating being Conceptual Manipulation. The X-Blade is perfectly fine.

I did remove Conceptual Manipulation from the page of the X-Blade so I would still have to re-add it.

 

[Bobsican]

To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

Actually, "worlds" themselves in KH have "hearts" too, and KH is the ultimate culmination of those, not only of "worlds", but also of the "heart" of anyone, and it's even stated that "Light" and "Darkness" all came from Kingdom Hearts itself.

"For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn't bound by the universe.

"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."

The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before."

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Oh great, the wiki just ate my reply...>.>

Whatever, Ex explained it better....(I'm not retyping all that)

Sorry for that. That happened to me a few times as well. I don't know how long your reply was though.