- 10,688
- 4,810
I'd say this has been a long time coming, but… Honestly, it's a bit late to the party. After all, 7, 8, and 5 are all better now, right?
...Right?
Well, we've got a lot of work to do, and I'm not going to wait for Everlasting when there are multiple users on this wiki capable of making the same revisions, so let's get started.
Shared Abilities
Resistance to Matter Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Time Manipulation, and BFR: Atomos crushes foes on a molecular level , and has power over gravity . Its mouth is also the gateway to another dimension. Anyone who can fight atomos gets resistance to Matter Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation, and Warrior of Light (FF1) should have resistance to BFR considering he actually gets out of the dimension when he fights him in the Lifespring Grotto.
Before anything, the difference between The Void and The Rift needs to be addressed, because the translation does a bad job of this sort of thing.
As has been discussed here, The Rift has passive Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation (The Sealed Cave twisted space and time around its entrance just due to contact with the void), Madness Manipulation, Corruption, and Perception Manipulation (Gilgamesh was driven mad by being stuck in the void, and was notably corrupted in appearance, seeing Bartz and his allies as monsters).
To compare, the void should possess all of the above as well as passive Void Manipulation (It erases everything that it engulfs, including space and time). This is something that comes into play with the other Final Fantasies, as the protagonists of FF3 and FF14 both entered this place and were unaffected.
In addition, the void and the rift have both been repeatedly shown to be timeless. The Phantom Village exists within the rift and is already stated to be outside the flow of time. Hell, when Bartz enters it THROUGH the rift, it's shown to be frozen in time completely. And obviously, the Void was directly stated by Enuo to have no past, present, or future.
This is important, because I have to bring up the Low 2-C upgrades because it's incredibly important. I'll go ahead and bring up my old thread, which was rejected on misinformation.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3310505
"So the most notable things here are that the worlds were split to seal the void, which Enuo could create and control at will. That part is important, as is the Inter-dimensional rift, as by destroying the crystals, Exdeath was able to merge the two worlds together and return it to its original state.
But is this really large planet, or is it something far higher? Well, let's look at the facts here.
We know that the worlds can't be in the same space. The Interdimensional Rift for obvious reasons is the space between two dimensions and has shown to be its own dimension, filled with stars and accessible only through the void or dimensional BFR spells. Hell, even Neo Exdeath states that he was going to return all dimensions to nothing, and this was LONG before the shared multiverse was a thing. Thus, the world splitting in two cannot just refer to the planets. This also makes the calc's original assumption that they were the same distance as earth and mars wrong, meaning that either way, 5-A isn't accurate (Or at least, that specific calc isn't).
*ahem* But I digress.
Exdeath was able to control the crystals, shatter them WHILE being actively sealed, and destroy them to merge the two halves of the universe together once again. And that was before Esdeath gained control of the void. Furthermore, the crystal shards are responsible for amping the Warriors of Light/Dawn and giving them all their abilities."
Final Fantasy I
The world was veiled in darkness. The seas raged, the winds stopped, and the earth began to rot. In these dark times, only a prophecy of four heroes, each carrying a darkened crystal shard, lives on as the sole hope of the people. This is the story of the game that started it all.
...At least it was until Dissidia came out. Now it's just the tip of the iceberg and Dissidia is the new main canon. Yikes.
It's been well-discussed already that the FF1 cast, including Garland and the Warriors of Light, should be Low 2-C and Infinite/Immeasurable. This is due to their battles with the likes of Garland, Chronodia, and Shinryu, which are all capable of said feats.
Final Fantasy III
The Warriors of Light need resistance to void passives. Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation (The Sealed Cave twisted space and time around its entrance just due to contact with the void), Madness Manipulation, Corruption, Perception Manipulation (Gilgamesh was driven mad by being stuck in the void, and was notably corrupted in appearance, seeing Bartz and his allies as monsters), Void Manipulation (It erases everything that it engulfs, including space and time)
Crossover Keys For Final Fantasy
The canonicity of Dissidia needs to be dealt with, because there's still the issue of... Keys.
Yes, I know, the dreaded "Dissidia Keys" that nobody wants to put in the effort to create. Well, thanks to its plot, it's inevitable at this point, for several reasons. And guess what? It's not just for Dissidia. I'll bring up every single example.
Final Fantasy Brave Exvius/Record Keeper: These games directly bring all of the many protagonists, as well as new ones, across the multiverse.
Dissidia Final Fantasy NT: This one should be obvious.
Dissidia Final Fantasy Opera Omnia: Same reasons as above. Even more notably, there are enemies called Planesgorgers, also called dimension eaters in japanese, that eat universes. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Planesgorger
Final Fantasy IV: The first six games get scaling to Final Fantasy IV through the After years, where you battle characters from the other games, including Gilgamesh.
As has been brought up in This blog as well as this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2831669, there are multiple Low 2-C to 2-C feats to scale from: Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy V, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy III, Final Fantasy XIII, and Final Fantasy XIV. That means nearly half of the total verses represented in the game (And more thanks to FFXIV giving scaling to everyone) are ALREADY at this level.
More Notable, it's confirmed that Dissidia Final Fantasy NT takes place after the end of every characters' respective games, meaning that this is them after defeating the final bosses.
Finally, it's a well-known fact on the wiki by now that Dissidia is Canon to Final Fantasy I, and that the games already exist in a shared multiverse (Gilgamesh is the same Gilgamesh between every game, with the exception of Final Fantasy 15 and maybe Type 0).
Before you bring up the PSP titles, the entire plot of that game was that they were being weakened by Shinryu sapping their life force. NT has feats and a timeline that contradict that, as it's completely separate from the original cycle with Cosmos and Chaos.
Debunking Counter-Arguments
Right off the bat, I have to do these, because If I don't do them now, the thread will be clogged with them later and waste valuable time.
Claim 1: It's inconsistent to scale everybody to Gilgamesh. This is an outlier to the feats shown in each game!
Well... No?
First of all, half of the games that Gilgamesh appears in already have direct universal feats unrelated to Gilgamesh, and this is just more supporting feats to that. Games like Brave Exvius show that the characters are equal, and the only exceptions would be things like Firion, who doesn't have any scaling through Gilgamesh, and characters like Luneth who have their own feats that strike a greater level. Case in Point:
Claim 2: Creating Dissidia Keys would cause a scaling mess.
This is something that was directly referenced on previous threads, and... Once again, No.
First of all, it's not hard to create an extra key. Just separate them into their main game pages and their dissidia pages. Case in point, something like Cloud would be:
Key: Final Fantasy VII | Advent Children | Summons | Dissidia
I don't think summons should have their own key TBH, but that's for another day. Anyway, it's not hard to just note on the profiles that Dissidia can't be used to scale characters to the canon games. Obviously, this would only scale to characters that actually appear in NT, and only to those keys.
Now, I have to go over the FF5 stuff as that provides a base for the pre-dissidia keys.
First of all; "Worlds means universe, not planet." This is not quite true. First off, they literally travel back and forth between the planets via meteors. It's not realistic to travel to other timelines like that.
Galuf directly states that the meteors Warp between worlds, and the two worlds are both separated by an interdimensional rift containing the Void. Obviously I'm not going to bring up 2-A buffs here, but you can't say that this is only 5-A.
"Galuf: I warped here through a meteorite from another world. Because... The evil we'd sealed thirty years ago was beginning to reawaken... So I came to stop it..."
Furthermore, "It's not realistic" isn't at all an argument. This is a fantasy world with magic, interdimensional rifts, a multiversal void, and plenty of abilities that can manipulate space and time. Hell, Exdeath is literally described to be "The space-warping master of all dimensions".
But merging giant collections of galaxies to seal a void sounds really weird.
The void is An entire dimension that's 2-C in size and 2-A in AP.
That should be all I need to bring up for that considering that everything else on that thread was just 2-A discussion, which I'll get to another time. This is just for 2-C/Low 2-C Shinryu.
In Summary
...Right?
Well, we've got a lot of work to do, and I'm not going to wait for Everlasting when there are multiple users on this wiki capable of making the same revisions, so let's get started.
Shared Abilities
Resistance to Matter Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Time Manipulation, and BFR: Atomos crushes foes on a molecular level , and has power over gravity . Its mouth is also the gateway to another dimension. Anyone who can fight atomos gets resistance to Matter Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation, and Warrior of Light (FF1) should have resistance to BFR considering he actually gets out of the dimension when he fights him in the Lifespring Grotto.
- Profiles this affects: FF1, FF4, FF5, FF9, FF11, FF14
- Profiles this affects: FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13, FF14, FF15, Type-0
- Profiles this affects:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, Tactics, Type-0
- Profiles this affects: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, Tactics, Type-0
Before anything, the difference between The Void and The Rift needs to be addressed, because the translation does a bad job of this sort of thing.
As has been discussed here, The Rift has passive Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation (The Sealed Cave twisted space and time around its entrance just due to contact with the void), Madness Manipulation, Corruption, and Perception Manipulation (Gilgamesh was driven mad by being stuck in the void, and was notably corrupted in appearance, seeing Bartz and his allies as monsters).
To compare, the void should possess all of the above as well as passive Void Manipulation (It erases everything that it engulfs, including space and time). This is something that comes into play with the other Final Fantasies, as the protagonists of FF3 and FF14 both entered this place and were unaffected.
In addition, the void and the rift have both been repeatedly shown to be timeless. The Phantom Village exists within the rift and is already stated to be outside the flow of time. Hell, when Bartz enters it THROUGH the rift, it's shown to be frozen in time completely. And obviously, the Void was directly stated by Enuo to have no past, present, or future.
This is important, because I have to bring up the Low 2-C upgrades because it's incredibly important. I'll go ahead and bring up my old thread, which was rejected on misinformation.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3310505
"So the most notable things here are that the worlds were split to seal the void, which Enuo could create and control at will. That part is important, as is the Inter-dimensional rift, as by destroying the crystals, Exdeath was able to merge the two worlds together and return it to its original state.
But is this really large planet, or is it something far higher? Well, let's look at the facts here.
We know that the worlds can't be in the same space. The Interdimensional Rift for obvious reasons is the space between two dimensions and has shown to be its own dimension, filled with stars and accessible only through the void or dimensional BFR spells. Hell, even Neo Exdeath states that he was going to return all dimensions to nothing, and this was LONG before the shared multiverse was a thing. Thus, the world splitting in two cannot just refer to the planets. This also makes the calc's original assumption that they were the same distance as earth and mars wrong, meaning that either way, 5-A isn't accurate (Or at least, that specific calc isn't).
*ahem* But I digress.
Exdeath was able to control the crystals, shatter them WHILE being actively sealed, and destroy them to merge the two halves of the universe together once again. And that was before Esdeath gained control of the void. Furthermore, the crystal shards are responsible for amping the Warriors of Light/Dawn and giving them all their abilities."
Final Fantasy I
The world was veiled in darkness. The seas raged, the winds stopped, and the earth began to rot. In these dark times, only a prophecy of four heroes, each carrying a darkened crystal shard, lives on as the sole hope of the people. This is the story of the game that started it all.
...At least it was until Dissidia came out. Now it's just the tip of the iceberg and Dissidia is the new main canon. Yikes.
It's been well-discussed already that the FF1 cast, including Garland and the Warriors of Light, should be Low 2-C and Infinite/Immeasurable. This is due to their battles with the likes of Garland, Chronodia, and Shinryu, which are all capable of said feats.
- Shinryu was far stronger than Spiritus, Materia, Chaos, and Cosmos.
- Spiritus and Materia were able to create the universe that Dissidia NT takes place in by "Bending the fabric of time and space".
- Chronodia was stated to be the embodiment of time and existed across all of it, which would be either a Low 2-C or a 2-A feat. But Everlasting believes it's Low 2-C and for once I honestly agree with him.
- Garland and the Four Fiends created a 2000-year Time Loop that could only be broken by the Light Warriors.
- Chaos seemingly creates his own dimension in the final battle with him, which as you can see here, contains multiple stars within it.
Final Fantasy III
The Warriors of Light need resistance to void passives. Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation (The Sealed Cave twisted space and time around its entrance just due to contact with the void), Madness Manipulation, Corruption, Perception Manipulation (Gilgamesh was driven mad by being stuck in the void, and was notably corrupted in appearance, seeing Bartz and his allies as monsters), Void Manipulation (It erases everything that it engulfs, including space and time)
Crossover Keys For Final Fantasy
The canonicity of Dissidia needs to be dealt with, because there's still the issue of... Keys.
Yes, I know, the dreaded "Dissidia Keys" that nobody wants to put in the effort to create. Well, thanks to its plot, it's inevitable at this point, for several reasons. And guess what? It's not just for Dissidia. I'll bring up every single example.
Final Fantasy Brave Exvius/Record Keeper: These games directly bring all of the many protagonists, as well as new ones, across the multiverse.
Dissidia Final Fantasy NT: This one should be obvious.
Dissidia Final Fantasy Opera Omnia: Same reasons as above. Even more notably, there are enemies called Planesgorgers, also called dimension eaters in japanese, that eat universes. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Planesgorger
Final Fantasy IV: The first six games get scaling to Final Fantasy IV through the After years, where you battle characters from the other games, including Gilgamesh.
As has been brought up in This blog as well as this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2831669, there are multiple Low 2-C to 2-C feats to scale from: Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy V, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy III, Final Fantasy XIII, and Final Fantasy XIV. That means nearly half of the total verses represented in the game (And more thanks to FFXIV giving scaling to everyone) are ALREADY at this level.
More Notable, it's confirmed that Dissidia Final Fantasy NT takes place after the end of every characters' respective games, meaning that this is them after defeating the final bosses.
Finally, it's a well-known fact on the wiki by now that Dissidia is Canon to Final Fantasy I, and that the games already exist in a shared multiverse (Gilgamesh is the same Gilgamesh between every game, with the exception of Final Fantasy 15 and maybe Type 0).
Before you bring up the PSP titles, the entire plot of that game was that they were being weakened by Shinryu sapping their life force. NT has feats and a timeline that contradict that, as it's completely separate from the original cycle with Cosmos and Chaos.
Debunking Counter-Arguments
Right off the bat, I have to do these, because If I don't do them now, the thread will be clogged with them later and waste valuable time.
Claim 1: It's inconsistent to scale everybody to Gilgamesh. This is an outlier to the feats shown in each game!
Well... No?
First of all, half of the games that Gilgamesh appears in already have direct universal feats unrelated to Gilgamesh, and this is just more supporting feats to that. Games like Brave Exvius show that the characters are equal, and the only exceptions would be things like Firion, who doesn't have any scaling through Gilgamesh, and characters like Luneth who have their own feats that strike a greater level. Case in Point:
- Final Fantasy 1: Has their own Low 2-C feats.
- Final Fantasy 4: Shinryu and Omega both appear as bosses in this game, as do endgame enemies from FF3 and the Four Fiends from FF1, who Garland is amplified by.
- Final Fantasy 5: Has their own Low 2-C feats.
- Final Fantasy 6: Kefka is stated in the ultimania to be able to control All of Reality, and the mimic Gogo from Final Fantasy 5 is a freakin' playable character in 6.
- Final Fantasy 7: The only reason that FF7 isn't already considered MSS is because the verse's AP is entirely based on the animation for Supernova. Even summons have better feats than that.
- Ivalice Saga: Zodiark.
Claim 2: Creating Dissidia Keys would cause a scaling mess.
This is something that was directly referenced on previous threads, and... Once again, No.
First of all, it's not hard to create an extra key. Just separate them into their main game pages and their dissidia pages. Case in point, something like Cloud would be:
Key: Final Fantasy VII | Advent Children | Summons | Dissidia
I don't think summons should have their own key TBH, but that's for another day. Anyway, it's not hard to just note on the profiles that Dissidia can't be used to scale characters to the canon games. Obviously, this would only scale to characters that actually appear in NT, and only to those keys.
Now, I have to go over the FF5 stuff as that provides a base for the pre-dissidia keys.
First of all; "Worlds means universe, not planet." This is not quite true. First off, they literally travel back and forth between the planets via meteors. It's not realistic to travel to other timelines like that.
Galuf directly states that the meteors Warp between worlds, and the two worlds are both separated by an interdimensional rift containing the Void. Obviously I'm not going to bring up 2-A buffs here, but you can't say that this is only 5-A.
"Galuf: I warped here through a meteorite from another world. Because... The evil we'd sealed thirty years ago was beginning to reawaken... So I came to stop it..."
Furthermore, "It's not realistic" isn't at all an argument. This is a fantasy world with magic, interdimensional rifts, a multiversal void, and plenty of abilities that can manipulate space and time. Hell, Exdeath is literally described to be "The space-warping master of all dimensions".
But merging giant collections of galaxies to seal a void sounds really weird.
The void is An entire dimension that's 2-C in size and 2-A in AP.
That should be all I need to bring up for that considering that everything else on that thread was just 2-A discussion, which I'll get to another time. This is just for 2-C/Low 2-C Shinryu.
In Summary
- Final Fantasy 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, Tactics, and 12 should be upgraded to Low 2-C (Capable of battling Gilgamesh, as well as foes far stronger than him). In Particular, FF1 should have the extra justification of fighting Chronodia.
- Characters that appeared in Dissidia Final Fantasy receive a Dissidia key that is At least Low 2-C (Participated in the fight against Shinryu and planesgorges), likely 2-C (Should be comparable to Luneth and The Cloud of Darkness) and Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite (Comparable to Cloud Strife and should be superior to summons such as Ede).
- Characters receive the list of resistances above.
