Final Fantasy V Revisions Part 1: Tiers and minor abilities

Hello, everyone. This has been a long time coming, hasn't it? It's come to my attention that the Final Fantasy VII pages have been getting quite the update recently. New abilities have been added, as well as more justifications for them. And I think it's great that these pages are finally being updated and given fresh new information and tabbers. But it certainly isn't the only verse in the series, now is it?

This is Part 1 of a 2-part series where I'm going to be doing my damnedest to upgrade and update the pages and characters of Final Fantasy 5. I replayed through the entire game to refresh my memory on every feat, and now I can safely say that there are solid enough arguments to warrant large revisions. Part 1 is going to focus on upgrading the characters' tiers to an acceptable level with a couple of small ability revisions, while Part 2 focuses on updating their abilities and separating them into tabs.

So. Without further ado?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8PbJwplkmE

Let's do this.

Some Soulhax Resistance
About an hour or so into the game the party comes across the third boss, the Siren. She's a demon who sucks souls from people. Here you can see the souls of Bartz, Lenna and Faris being sucked out, accompanied by illusions from their loved ones to make them lower their guard.

What you also may notice is who ISN'T affected: Galuf. And before you say "it's because he had amnesia and didn't remember her", not a bad point, but also consider: Galuf was on guard thanks to not being able to remember Krile. And after the siren herself appears, this exchange happens:

Galuf: Demon! What are you!?

Siren: Oho... I didn't expect any of you to escape the effects of my magic... Greetings. I am Siren. I'm afraid your companions' souls now belong to me. Still, I'm feeling generous... I could be convinced to spare yours if you ran home quietly.

Galuf: You think I would abandon these kids? Fat chance, missy!

Siren: Why would you risk your life for these people?

Galuf: Because... they're my friends!

Then queue typical "don't be fooled!" as Galuf quite literally slaps the souls back into them.

I'm serious. Look here, at 2:16. Galuf hits them so hard their souls go right back into their body. And until Siren is dead, she can't affect their souls anymore, forced to combat them the old-fashioned way thanks to them no longer being distracted by the illusions, giving all four warriors Resistance to Soul Manipulation (Galuf was unaffected, as were the rest of the warriors after their guard was up).

Breaking the Fourth Wall
As far as I know this is the only Final Fantasy to REALLY do this. There's a fun little dance scene in the town of Jachol where the dancer directly talks to the player: "And you, on the other side of the screen!".

Not really important, but I thought I'd mention it.

Worlds: Planet or Universe?
And now we've gotten to the first of the two big kickers. Currently, wielders of the Crystals are all rated at Large Planet Level, for being able to split and merge two planets. However, as you'll soon find, this is actually far greater. Let's have a look at some Exposition courtesy of everybody's favorite turtle sage, Master Roshi!

...Wait, that's not everyone's favorite? ****. Well, listen to Ghido anyway. You can see it in-game here, but I've gone ahead and posted the script below as well.

So the most notable things here are that the worlds were split to seal the void, which Enuo could create and control at will. That part is important, as is the Inter-dimensional rift, as by destroying the crystals, Exdeath was able to merge the two worlds together and return it to its original state.

But is this really large planet, or is it something far higher? Well, let's look at the facts here.

We know that the worlds can't be in the same space. The Interdimensional Rift for obvious reasons is the space between two dimensions and has shown to be its own dimension, filled with stars and accessible only through the void or dimensional BFR spells. Hell, even Neo Exdeath states that he was going to return all dimensions to nothing, and this was LONG before the shared multiverse was a thing. Thus, the world splitting in two cannot just refer to the planets. This also makes the calc's original assumption that they were the same distance as earth and mars wrong, meaning that either way, 5-A isn't accurate (Or at least, that specific calc isn't).

*ahem* But I digress.

Exdeath was able to control the crystals, shatter them WHILE being actively sealed, and destroy them to merge the two halves of the universe together once again. And that was before Esdeath gained control of the void. Furthermore, the crystal shards are responsible for amping the Warriors of Light/Dawn and giving them all their abilities.

Given all of this, I propose an upgrade for the base characters (I.E. Pre-Neo Exdeath) to 3-A, which would affect Bartz, Lenna, Krile, Faris, Galuf, Exdeath, Transformed Gilgamesh, and Enuo. Enuo spouts off some stuff in the sealed cave about the void being beyond past, present, and future, which hints at some timeless void stuff that could bump them up to Low 2-C, but frankly, I'd rather do one thing at a time. Of course, endgame Bartz and co. are 2-A, so th-

"2-A is an Outlier!"
...And here's the next big part. This is something that's been bugging me for a LONG time, and that's scaling to Neo Exdeath being considered an outlier. The reason for this is "because the party never defeated Neo-Exdeath but the Void did. And that they struggled against Exdeath's base form."

Now it's time. Given more experience since I originally tried to propose this upgrade and being WAY better at debating, it's time to tackle this once and for all. I'm going to do this in parts. I'll address the multiple feats here first (And yes, there are multiple), and Counter-Arguments second. Without further ado, here we go.

Feat #1: Defeating Neo Exdeath

This is the obvious one, and I don't really think I need to go into much detail about it. The party defeated Neo Exdeath after his tree form was engulfed by the void. Pretty simple, right?

Feat #2: Dawn Warriors hold back the Void

After Tree Form Exdeath BFRs the party to the void, it looks like things are pretty grim (This doesn't mean they struggled; I'll get to that later). However, in the nick of time, the spirits of the fallen dawn warriors appear, Galuf included! Good to see him again. Then this exchange happens.

Exdeath couldn't comprehend why the power of the void was disappearing, and even when he tried to BFR them a second time, King Tycoon shows up and stops it. At this point, Exdeath had achieved his full power over the stuff, indicating that the Dawn Warriors were holding off the entirety of the void by themselves, which is our second 2-A feat of the day.

Feat #3: Defeating Enuo

Thanks to Final Fantasy's constant need to add new areas and dungeons to their games, we got to see Enuo firsthand, another 2-A character that the Light Warriors battle against. He uses similar attacks to Neo Exdeath with even greater potency, but he eventually falls by their hand. And it isn't a deal of "I will return" or "I cannot be killed". You see Enuo's soul (Same graphic as the soul for the player characters, so I'm calling it that) flicker out onscreen (Here at around 8:20) as the area you fought him in is destroyed.

And to put the icing on top of the cake, he isn't even re-fightable, all pointing to the fact that the Light Warriors killed him for good.


Now, for the Counter-Arguments.

Counter-Argument #1: The party didn't defeat Neo-Exdeath, the Void did.

I legitimately could not tell you where people get this idea from. My best guess is that Exdeath is engulfed by the void as it turns against him, but that was Tree Form Exdeath and what caused him to become Neo Exdeath in the first place.

There is nothing suggesting that the void was the one that defeated Neo-Exdeath, as he was in full control over the void at that point. Hell, after the fact, they even mention that they beat Exdeath. That's LITERALLY the first piece of dialogue after the Neo Exdeath fight. He doesn't have any dying words that would support the void defeating him either, and I hesitate to call it headcanon, but there aren't many other words that describe it well.

In either case, I see two possible reasons for Exdeath losing control.

• 1. Exdeath was weakened enough that he could no longer control the void, which supports scaling as the Dawn Warriors together were able to hold it back.
  
  
  • 2. Enuo somehow turned it against him, which supports scaling as this didn't happen to Enuo and the party was able to defeat him.

Counter-Argument #2: They don't scale because the Dawn Warriors held back the void.

This is easy enough. The Dawn Warriors scale to the void because their spirits held it back, making this a moot point. I mean if you really want to, you could probably make the argument that Tree Exdeath is 2-A normally, but that's not something I really want to go in to.

Counter-Argument #3: Exdeath didn't have the full power of the void when the party fought him.

Exdeath literally states he doesn't have the full power earlier on, WELL before the party enters the final dungeon. That's why he sent out demons into the overworld to try and slow down the Light Warriors before they could get the Sealed Weapons.

This is something his minions allude to several times as well.


And when they DO fight him at the end of the game, he makes it pretty clear that he DOES have the full power.


Counter-Argument #4: The party struggled against Exdeath's tree form.

And this is the biggest point that I need to address. Because the party struggled against the first form of the final boss, they don't scale to the second.

To this, I ask you... What indicates they struggled?

The first cutscene with Tree Exdeath shows that he opens with BFRing them. As soon as the party returns from the void to fight again, he immediately tries to BFR them again, and expresses shock and, dare I say it, even fear that the void isn't working.

This alone should indicate that Exdeath didn't want to fight them directly, as he knew at this point that they had the power to stand against him.

Did they "struggle" because he was the first phase of the final boss? I don't really see how this is supposed to be the case. They were winning the fight, and Exdeath was losing. That's why the void engulfed him and he became Neo Exdeath.

Final Tally
Characters that are currently "At least 5-A, possibly 3-C" are upgraded to 3-A for being empowered by the crystals and scaling to Exdeath, who was able to control and destroy them.

As for 2-A... The way I see it, there are three options here.

• 1. Tree Form Exdeath is upgraded to 2-A, for having the full power of the void, and the warriors are upgraded as well.
  
  
  • 2. The Party is given a 2-A Post-Game key for defeating Enuo, similar to how Ren Amamiya's keys are split into multiple sections of the game.
  • 3. The Warriors of Light are upgraded to 2-A for defeating Neo Exdeath.

The idea that they don't scale to Neo Exdeath has been around for a long time, so misinterpretation is bound to be pretty set in stone and hard to change. But it's high time that we as a community made the effort to re-evaluate our pre-conceived notions about this verse in order to most accurately represent the characters.

Agree: 3 (DMUA, Genericstickman, ShinyMagicalGirl)

TFW Gilgamesh gets upgraded to Low 2-C and Gilgamesh just retorts with 2-A

Then again on closer inspection that doesn't seem to be the case so

I'm pretty sure Gilgamesh won't be upgraded to 2-A (I wish though) but maybe I guess since with self destruct he was able to defeat an enemy that was giving the End Game Party a challenge

2-A gil... most likely not, Unfortunately.

Disagree because best Gilgamesh doesn't get the best part

So would base Gil be effected by this or not?

I don't believe so. Just his transformed state.

The only argument I can think to this is that it's an absurd jump in power, but it's an RPG and absurd jumps in power from the start til the end is common so eh

TBF wouldn't be the first absurd RPG jump

• looks at Bravely Default*

RPGs are more prone to power escalation then Shonen by far TBH

I was more thinking of Monster Girl Quest and the way it goes from Large Star to Multiversal+

hmm

DMUA said:

TFW Gilgamesh gets upgraded to Low 2-C and Gilgamesh just retorts with 2-A

Click to expand...

Well I mean tbf, there might some 2-A stuff for Fate Gil, at least if this one goes through.

Anyways, I guess we should just wait for the admins and FF experts to come in, but this seems reasonable.

Also FF5 boys have a lot more hax but I'll get to that in the next thread

First of all; "Worlds means universe, not planet." This is not quite true. First off, they literally travel back and forth between the planets via meteors. It's not realistic to travel to other timelines like that. And yes, it did seal in the 2-A Void, but would just be a power nullification feat. The splitting of the world into two is still 5-A. Furthermore, that's not the only 5-A feat, but Base Gilgamesh was originally from FF6, who scales from being superior to Kefka. It would technically be a 2-C feat if the "Worlds" were actual universes, but it was agreed to just be a 5-A feat a long time ago. Nothing indicates 3-A.

Second, the Dawn Warriors and King Tycoon were not holding back the void; they were merely rescuing the Light Warriors from the Void and holding back Exdeath. And this is well before Exdeath could fully control the Void. Tree form Exdeath doesn't have any notable Tier feats aside from being well above his base form who is well above transformed Gilgamesh. Transformed Gilgamesh is superior to Necrophobe who is superior to Eden from FF8. That's where the 3-C rating comes from.

Anyway, the party defeating Neo-Exdeath is still PIS. Simply put, they are not comparable to the Void or even remotely close in power to it. And Exdeath may be merged with the Void and believed himself to have full control over the void, he even said himself that he too will disappear into nothingness. And that's what happened, he defeated himself out of PIS; not by the Light Warriors or Dawn Warriors. Especially the Dawn Warriors don't scale because they were killed by either Exdeath, in Galuf's case or enemies weaker than Exdeath in the other's case.

Anyway, we do plan on potentially upgrading FFV eventually, but we are Not scaling the entire cast from the Void at all, period. Written with some help from Everlasting.

And so it begins.

"First off, they literally travel back and forth between the planets via meteors. It's not realistic to travel to other timelines like that."

Okay, one, Galuf literally says it's through warping and not physical travel, and the planets exist in separate dimensions. Two, I literally never mentioned timelines and i have no idea why you're bringing it up.

I literally never tried to bring up 2-C because there's no mention of splitting timelines. It feels like you're putting words in my mouth to try and make the upgrade seem more outlandish.

"Second, the Dawn Warriors and King Tycoon were not holding back the void; they were merely rescuing the Light Warriors from the Void and holding back Exdeath."

I can't even sugar coat that. That's literally the opposite of how it happens.

"And this is well before Exdeath could fully control the Void."

Even though he explicitly states he has the power, even mentioning when he doesn't? And that's literally the entire reason why he sends demons to hold Bartz off?

"Anyway, the party defeating Neo-Exdeath is still PIS. Simply put, they are not comparable to the Void or even remotely close in power to it."

Despite being amped by the crystals and sealed weapons, despite the crystals literally driving the void back from the world and saving it, despite the literal point of the game being to stop the void?

"And Exdeath may be merged with the Void and believed himself to have full control over the void, he even said himself that he too will disappear into nothingness. And that's what happened, he defeated himself out of PIS"

That is literally headcanon. Nothing even remotely implies that Exdeath defeated himself. He dies because the party beats the shit out of him, and they even STATE that they beat him. Let's actually look at what Neo Exdeath said.

He was going to erase anything, THEN he could disappear. Why do you think he was actively attacking the party?

"Especially the Dawn Warriors don't scale because they were killed by either Exdeath, in Galuf's case or enemies weaker than Exdeath in the other's case."

Dorgann and Kelger died from illness, and Xezat sacrificed himself to blow up a barrier tower Galuf is the only one who was killed by Exdeath. Did you even play the game?

"Anyway, we do plan on potentially upgrading FFV eventually, but we are Not scaling the entire cast from the Void at all, period."

So you refuse to make changes no matter what evidence or proof is presented to you? What does that say about this wiki's stance?

Even the most cursory read through the scripts proves my points.

And you didn't even address Enuo, who they blatantly and solidly defeated, with no debate about it.

"Simply put, they are not comparable to the Void or even remotely close in power to it."

Nobody else in Bravely Default is remotely close in power to 2-A but the protags still scale

Nobody in FF3 is remotely close in power to 2-C but the protags still scale

It's just this one verse that a select few absolutely refuses to accept any type of upgrade for.

I've played through the game multiple times. And he simply said, "From another world". It's too vague to assume another universe. Final Fantasy isn't a quilted Multiverse like DMC or Dragon Ball, so universes are legit space-time continuums. But merging giant collections of galaxies to seal a void sounds really weird.

And still, they weren't holding off the full power of the Void. Exdeath never had full control over the void during that battle. Also, the fact that the individual party members are very consistent portrayed as being well below base Exdeath indicates that fighting Neo-Exdeath is a massive outlier.

I also saw the Enuo part, but that's also the same concept. And I was tired from by RL drop and from having a bunch of messages to read. The aren't anywhere near as powerful as the Void and Enuo was engulfed by the Void being his ultimate downfall. That was how he was defeated long ago, and when defeated he says. "Not again", similar to how he was first engulfed by the Void. The Void's power is indeed 2-A, but no one scales from it. Exdeath and Enuo tried to control the Void's power, but were unable to utilize its power.

We might consider scaling the cast from Shinryu's possible 2-C feat, but that's for another day. We have already addressed and rejected 2-A cast numerous times.

"Exdeath never had full control over the void during that battle."

I will be blunt. You have yet to actually prove that, and all you have done is repeat yourself. There is actual evidence to show them scaling that you have continually ignored.

"Also, the fact that the individual party members are very consistent portrayed as being well below base Exdeath indicates that fighting Neo-Exdeath is a massive outlier."

In the middle of the game, they fought him and he was fine. They don't fight him again until the endgame where they've both grown much stronger.

"That was how he was defeated long ago, and when defeated he says. "Not again", similar to how he was first engulfed by the Void"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYDEJBTU1sE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX9us1_vyeg

I invite you to show me where, because that was just straight-up a lie. Enuo doesn't say anything when he's defeated.

"The Void's power is indeed 2-A, but no one scales from it. Exdeath and Enuo tried to control the Void's power, but were unable to utilize its power."

Please, point out where it says he was consumed by the void. All it says is that the void he created lingered after he was defeated. Incidentally, just like it does after Neo Exdeath is defeated.

"We have already addressed and rejected 2-A cast numerous times."

I was there for several of them, and none of them were as in-depth as this one, nor did they use thorough evidence that you still haven't yet disproven. This is appeal to Tradition at best and blatant bias at worse.

I watched the fight for the fourth time today just to see if you were being truthful. The only line that occurs in the battle at all is "The power of the void is increasing!". That doesn't exactly help your case.

Was talking about his Tree form, his Tree form is Not 2-A. And his tree form was able to stomp the party using just a mere fraction of the Void's Power prior to the Dawn Warriors and King Tycoon rescuing him. Neo-Exdeath was briefly merged with the Void and initially 2-A, but even he didn't quite know how to control that power. That was how he was defeated. Again, this comes from Everlasting, not me. And Reppuzan also said something about it a while back. But still, simply holding back the Void isn't a 2-A feat at all.

FFV is one of my all time favorites in the series and I too would have wanted to see Bartz and the party as the god tiers, but Everlasting and Reppuzan understand the context more than anyone regarding the feats. There's also the fact that even after Neo-Exdeath and Enuo were defeated, the Void lived and also warped the party to another location. And they were unable to stop the Void; another indication about them being much weaker than the Void.

Watching this thread.

"And his tree form was able to stomp the party using just a mere fraction of the Void's Power prior to the Dawn Warriors and King Tycoon rescuing him."

He BFRed them. He didn't fight them at all. When he actually had to fight, he got his ass kicked until the void engulfed him. If he could stomp them so easily, why not just do it?

"Neo-Exdeath was briefly merged with the Void and initially 2-A, but even he didn't quite know how to control that power"

Again, this is headcanon with nothing to back it up.

"There's also the fact that even after Neo-Exdeath and Enuo were defeated, the Void lived and also warped the party to another location."

Even though Neo-Exdeath and Enuo were empowered by the void? At this point, you're asking for them to just be downgraded entirely. Either Bartz and co scale because they fought a 2-A or the 2-A isn't a 2-A at all. There's no other option here.

For the record, I also don't appreciate misinformation or info without any sources.

The sources were already given, but we were simply addressing the details. Neo-Exdeath nor Enuo don't have any need for downgrades; the Void is blatantly 2-A. It's just no one scales from it for the very same reason Mario doesn't scale from Dreamy Bowser.

Then clearly the characters being amped by the void must not be fully amped then. If by your logic, Neo Exdeath and Enuo both couldn't control the full power of the void, then clearly they must not scale to it. You can't have it both ways.

Either they were 2-A and got beaten by people who would thus be 2-A

Or they were beaten by 3-Cs and are thus 3-C

Simply being amped by it and absorbing the full power is enough to have such ratings, but the only thing that would be changed would be a added weakness. Also, it was stated by an NPC in that Phantom Village that Enuo was engulfed by his own void. And keep in mind, this is also another reason we don't make Omega and Shinryu 2-A as even the 12 Holy weapons were ineffective against them despite being effective against Enuo.

Also, Outlier and PIS are things. Exdeath and Enuo are only 2-A with the Void, and aren't 2-A without it. And Bartz and the others are only comparable to Exdeath and Enuo without it. And as the lore says and like what happened to Enuo, the Void turned on him.

Outlier and PIS don't apply here though, for reasons I already stated in the opening post that debunks EVERY reason to possibly use it. If all you can do for an argument is call "Outlier", then maybe it's not a very solid argument, is it?

And with that, I'm going to bed, as I have work in the morning.

Don't prematurely close this while I'm asleep.

Also keep in mind, The FF8 Cast don't scale from the Time Compression form of Ultimecia and that's why no one's Immeasurable. If Bartz were to scale from the 2-A keys, he would also have Immeasurable speed. Which not long before he fought Exdeath; Gilgamesh was able to keep up with Bartz which would make a whole bunch of characters Immeasurable despite lack of feats and a whole bunch of contradictories.

There's also the Phantom Village NPC mentioning Enuo getting consumed by the void being his ultimate downfall. Don't remember which NPC but this one says he traded his immortality for Void powers. Maybe the GBA version which I played said something different than the Super Famicon fan translation like in the video. Or maybe it was a different NPC, but it's hard to find a direct source online.

Oh, I have some choice words for FF8 revisions, but I'll get to those when I get to them.

We already know of FF8's revisions, but BlackCurrent and Everlasting are already taking care of them. The Tiers will receive upgrades, but not so much their speeds; and tiers are upgraded for entirely different reasons than Exdeath.

For that matter, Gilgamesh's page is certainly outdated now, ain't it. Pretty sure he scales to Ultimecia too. :/ So low 2-C Bartz then? That's a compromise I'm willing to settle on.