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The Final Fantasy Verse-Wide Revisions You've All Been Waiting For (Dissidia + Gilgamesh Editions)

DarkDragonMedeus said:
That is true, Gil can be inconsistent at times. 5-A and Sub-Relativistic scaling from FF6 is uncontroversial given it's consistent with FF6's lore; and that's even in his base form alone. But Gil himself is no where near Universal in any of the individual games. Plus, Dissidia is often implied to take place after the end of each FF game save the first one; giving it even less reason for any end game boss to be any stronger than their in game feats.
Also, Base Exdeath's feat was only excepted as planetary.
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Dissidia was STATED to take place after the end of each FF game. That's why I'm trying to give them separate keys.

Base Exdeath's feat is one of the things I'm changing in the OP.

FF6's lore that crosses over with 5's lore because of the nature of the series lore in general. If you want to argue that certain verses shouldn't scale from gilgamesh, i'd be happy to engage with that. Ultimately my biggest priority in this thread is upgrading FF5 and giving the dissidia cast extra keys, and 6 is one of the ones that doesn't already have Tier 2 feats.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
How about everyone take the pill that Gilgamesh's power level is inherently inconsistent because he's a Crossover character and that trying to scale him to Dissidia and other games is dumb because it inflates practically the entire Final Fantasy Multiverse to ridiculous heights?
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How about you provide some actual source for that? Because that's literal headcanon you're trying to use to shut off a buff that you don't like.

Again.

Also, "Take the pill"? What are you, a right-wing conspiracy theorist?
 
In either case, My highest priority is adding the extra key to the people that need it. I'll concede on not scaling the mainline games to eachother (even though we already scale everyone off gilgamesh and this would just butt the tears of those who do, and it wouldn't be extremely difficult to just add early-game vs late-game keys like 8 already has) if it means we can get the rest done faster.
 
My point is that the most accurate spot you can give to Gilgamesh is 5-A due to a lot of Final Fantasy games having feats on that level vs trying to scale people to Low 2-C based on stuff that either blatantly doesn't scale to protagonists or is only in a few games.
 
Transformed Gilgamesh doesn't have any Tier 2 feats or any direct feats, he simply fought Squall in his 4-A key which scales to the FFV cast.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
My point is that the most accurate spot you can give to Gilgamesh is 5-A due to a lot of Final Fantasy games having feats on that level vs trying to scale people to Low 2-C based on stuff that either blatantly doesn't scale to protagonists or is only in a few games.
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>Only in a few games

1. 3. 5. 8. 9. 11. 12. 13. 14.

Even if you want to take this route there are literally more mainline games with tier 2 feats than there are without them.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Transformed Gilgamesh doesn't have any Tier 2 feats or any direct feats, he simply fought Squall in his 4-A key which scales to the FFV cast.
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And once more, he'll be Tier 2 if this revision goes through. Which again, we can skip as extra keys are my priority, but it means I'll have to make another thread later.
 
Wasn't it stomping someone who fought Squall? Also don't most of the cast that scale to his 5-A only scale to his base not his transformed form
 
I like how you bring those games up when Gil doesn't show up in half these games (III, IX, XI) and he doesn't show up in XIII when they have Tier 2 feats
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I like how you bring those games up when Gil doesn't show up in half these games (III, IX, XI) and he doesn't show up in XIII when they have Tier 2 feats
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You said most games didn't have Tier 2 feats. That was a lie. And the rest of this is false anyway. Gilgamesh is in IX and XI. Whether or not it's the same individual or completely different like 15 is up for debate, but they're there and it doesn't really negate anything.

And Caius has a tier 2 thing IIRC, but i'd have to make ANOTHER big revision thread on that.
 
Also isn't it consistent for most appearances of Gilgamesh he uses 6 arms rather then his usual 8, and his 8 arms are the ones with the tier 3 feat everyone and their grandma scales to despite only fighting against minimal amount of arms
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also the 9 feat is just a chain-reaction done by Kuja destroying the crystal, and there's no proof that the crystal has universal durability so it scales to no one.
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Good thing I'm not actually trying to buff 9 and didn't mention it in the original thread for anything but a couple resistances. I'm just saying that Tier 2 feats exist. Brings more consistency to dissidia stuff owo
 
FF1's was just the Four heroes fighting optional bosses; they probably stomped him depending on context. Especially since Gil in that game was weaker than the FF6 bosses like Phantom Train and Ultros gameplay wise. And was weaker than Atomos when Gil was stronger than Atomos in FFV. Plus, that was base Gilgamesh.

V was his first appearance as an occurring enemy who often got his ass kicked, and his transformed state was stomped by base Exdeath. He bested Necron via a self destruction was one notable feat however.

VI in the remake appears to be his first canonical appearance chronologically speaking due to being "The strongest Esper". And Gilgamesh lost to Squall's 4-A key in his transformed state in VII.

Not familiar with the rest, but it's still not consistent. And actually not all of them take place before Dissidia. NT actually used pre-time skip Noctis and Noctis dies in the end of FFXV. So it couldn't be after XV.
 
A chain reaction isn't an example of consistency, quite the opposite. Tier 2 is vastly inconsistent for most Final Fantasy series.
 
Yeah, the only Tier 2 thing in 9 comes from a glass cannon crystal, not that anyone is physically Tier 2.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
FF1's was just the Four heroes fighting optional bosses; they probably stomped him depending on context. Especially since Gil in that game was weaker than the FF6 bosses like Phantom Train and Ultros gameplay wise. And was weaker than Atomos when Gil was stronger than Atomos in FFV. Plus, that was base Gilgamesh.
V was his first appearance as an occurring enemy who often got his ass kicked, and his transformed state was stomped by base Exdeath. He bested Necron via a self destruction was one notable feat however.

VI in the remake appears to be his first canonical appearance chronologically speaking due to being "The strongest Esper". And Gilgamesh lost to Squall's 4-A key in his transformed state in VII.

Not familiar with the rest, but it's still not consistent. And actually not all of them take place before Dissidia. NT actually used pre-time skip Noctis and Noctis dies in the end of FFXV. So it couldn't be after XV.
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FF1 has their own Low 2-C feats.

FF5's transformed gilgamesh was wielding the Excalipoor, which is the weakest sword from a lore perspective. the real Excalibur is one of the sealed weapons that defeated Enuo and Exdeath in the first place. He wasn't stomped by Base Esdeath, he was BFRed from a long range. Esdeath wasn't even in the room at the time.

False. Gilgamesh never fights the party in VIII. He stomps Seifer and then joins the party.

NT Noctis is the more iconic appearance of him (youthful), as the post-timeskip noctis only appears in a single chapter. THe cycle of dissidia constantly revived characters after their death, so that's likely the case here.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, the only Tier 2 thing in 9 comes from a glass cannon crystal, not that anyone is physically Tier 2.
Click to expand...
Hey, can we stop derailing with FF9 talk that Isn't part of the thread? Because this is going off-tangent for a verse i'm not trying to scale to Tier 2 in the first place.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
A chain reaction isn't an example of consistency, quite the opposite. Tier 2 is vastly inconsistent for most Final Fantasy series.
Click to expand...
Please tell me where in the OP i said that 9 should be buffed to Tier 2.
 
No, FF1 only has Dissidia.

FF5 only has Tier 2 feats for the final boss dude. Gilgamesh doesn't scale to that. Same for other stuff like 8 with Ultimecia and 13 with Bhunivelze. Scaling a side-character to that is idiocy.

Noctis comes from a game that honestly has shit for feats and where even the Summons can't scale to the other games' selves.
 
Nice job to completely misconstrue the point, as always.

>FF1 only has dissidia

Did you even READ the thread? Or did you just see it and go "Tier 2 bad lol" like with Nasuverse, Devil May Cry, and God of War. Because this is shit that even Ever agrees with.
 
You're descending into insulting me yet again, which is a sign that you don't actually have arguments to respond me with.

And yes, I do disagree with Tier 2 Devil May Cry and God of War. I think it's wank of the highest order, what of it? And I think 2-A Nasuverse is an outlier in comparison to 3-A to Low 2-C.

But this wiki has forgotten the meaning of the word Outlier ever since Google+ Migrants came in.
 
Says the person who called me idiotic in his very last post. Nice attempt to deflect. You haven't even done anything but derail into FF9, which once again, IS NOT PART OF THE UPGRADE.
 
For the record, I also much prefer to avoid Crossovers scaling for games that do not have feats anywhere near this scale.
 
I mean 8 arms Gilgamesh's only tier 3 feat was a casual stomping so him being tier 2 via fighting a Dissidia character isn't bizarre of a thing (also the fact that I'm pretty sure 8 arms Gilgamesh only appeared in 3 mainline games + Dissidia is another reason), the only problem is to deal with the characters who scale to his 6 armed form since they should be downgraded to whatever is consistent with 6 arms Gilgamesh
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Antvasima said:
For the record, I also much prefer to avoid Crossovers scaling for games that do not have feats anywhere near this scale.
Click to expand...
Same. But by the rate this is going Zephyros will start pushing to scale all of Final Fantasy to Neo Exdeath.
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Putting words in my mouth now, are you?

I'm not stupid, you know. Why do you think I didn't try to make the Dissidia keys 2-A?
 
Can none of you be calm?

If you always use someone else as an excuse to be flawed, you're just going to spiral into fallacies abound.

I don't know much about Final Fantasy myself, but from the stuff I have looked over, I don't really see much wrong with Tier 2. I can't immediately think of any big anti feats and on it's own merits, the 2-A stuff in 5 is indeed 2-A.
 
I'm not using 2-A stuff anyway. I'm using Low 2-C stuff for a specific key for the characters that doesn't interfere with their mainline games.

If i wanted to wank, I would say to get rid of keys and make everyone Low 2-C regardless.
 
The 2-A stuff in 5 doesn't scale to literally no one.

Most Final Fantasy games have nothing to do with one another and have vastly disparate levels of feats. Which is why crossover scaling via Dissidia or Gilgamesh is BS.

In the former's case, even Zephyros recognizes it is BS and so he is proposing a random key out of nowhere to hide the outlier.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The 2-A stuff in 5 doesn't scale to literally no one.
Most Final Fantasy games have nothing to do with one another and have vastly disparate levels of feats. Which is why crossover scaling via Dissidia or Gilgamesh is BS.

In the former's case, even Zephyros recognizes it is BS and so he is proposing a random key out of nowhere to hide the outlier.
Click to expand...
Are you going to actually debate, or are you going to keep relying on ad hominem.
 
I might as well say that (8 Arms) Gilgamesh's other tier 2 feat is fighting against 14 WOL who has a few feats of beating tier 2 characters
 
The dissidia keys don't even RELY on scaling eachother. THey rely on the actual feats shown in the actual games OF dissidia.
 
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