The Final Fantasy Verse-Wide Revisions You've All Been Waiting For (Dissidia + Gilgamesh Editions)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The MMO's are another story altogether and I don't think it's wise to scale them to the single player games.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Matthew seems to make sense here.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

The MMO's are another story altogether and I don't think it's wise to scale them to the single player games.

Matt is actually right about this one.

Neo Exdeath was a copy directly stated to be stronger than the original, and the FF14 cloud of darkness is a different entity from the one in FF3.

But once again, that's completely derailing from the point.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even canon crossovers have scaling that's all over the place for the sake of plot being the focus rather than power-scaling. Dissidia has a bunch of stuff that's on par with Kintaro losing fights to Striker or Raiden level characters getting bested by underdogs like Sonya and Jax. The fact that Dissidia is a fighting game, also makes it prone to PIS/Outliers.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Even canon crossovers have scaling that's all over the place for the sake of plot being the focus rather than power-scaling. Dissidia has a bunch of stuff that's on par with Kintaro losing fights to Striker or Raiden level characters getting bested by underdogs like Sonya and Jax.

Final Fantasy isn't at all comparable to Mortal Kombat. Why are you bringing it up? The context is completely different.

 

[DMUA]

Mortal Kombat's scaling is inconsistent because low tiers somehow manage to square off against characters that should be way stronger.

If FF is the same, bring actual examples of it being inconsistent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dissidia's story mode has a very inconsistent scaling where everyone can fight everyone too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Almost every verse has their share of inconsistencies, but it's especially fighting games with story modes that are all over the place. Dissidia is a fighting game that takes place across the Final Fantasy multiverse that consists of Tier 6 Massively Hypersonic characters trading blows with Tier 2 and Massively FTL+/Infinite/Immeasurable speed characters. So yeah, Dissidia is probably even worse than MK in terms of scaling.

The individual Final Fantasy games have good feats that are consistent in increment within each game, and there are a few consistencies between each other, but Dissidia is a giant mess.

 

[Genericstickman]

So opinions on the other stuff not including the upgrade?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Zephyros is aggressive yes, but there is no need to retaliate.

 

[DMUA]

Dissida is it's own thing, with it's own feats. The OP already suggested splitting them into another key entirely, since they're after the events of their own story (And it's not like dramatic escalation overtime is new to FF, see like... every single game, probably?)

As I said, I dunno much about FF, so I won't say anything about Gilgamesh, but unless you have actual examples as opposed to slapping random ratings from their own series and saying obviously it's irrevocably inconsistent, meanwhile, to quote a page I very much remember even after the supposed G+ migration, "all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable."

It being a later version of the characters who would have time to power up on their own is definitely reconcilable.

 

[Antvasima]

Almost every verse has their share of inconsistencies, but it's especially fighting games with story modes that are all over the place. Dissidia is a fighting game that takes place across the Final Fantasy multiverse that consists of Tier 6 Massively Hypersonic characters trading blows with Tier 2 and Massively FTL+/Infinite/Immeasurable speed characters. So yeah, Dissidia is probably even worse than MK in terms of scaling.

The individual Final Fantasy games have good feats that are consistent in increment within each game, and there are a few consistencies between each other, but Dissidia is a giant mess.

I agree with this.

 

[DMUA]

doesn't really address my points.

 

[TartaChocholate]

TBH it is kinda true, sometimes the growth in power is pretty explosive and doesn't really offer an explanation like a power-up of sorts or a timeskip. I mean... Zack goes from High 6-A to 4-B in about 4 months simply by training and working as a SOLDIER. Cloud and the party jump from 8-C to baseline 4-B after Midgar in what at most seems to be a bit over a week with no real explanation.

 

[DMUA]

It's kinda just how FF is written. People just get strong enough for the story to work, powering up isn't really treated as a key plot beat, unlike overcoming your own fear or despair.

 

[HST_Master]

Anyway, regarding the abilities...

Shiva's Resistances should only scale to those that have fought her or withstood her Ice. So IV, V, VI, X, XIII, XIV, and XV should actually scale.

Empathetic Manipulation is fine.

Resistances regarding Flare are okay.

Gilgamesh didn't view them as monsters, he just mistaked them as such as he's been fighting monsters since he's been in there, so the resistances regarding him are a no-go.

IIRC Atomos, sucking someome in is a insta kill for anyone unless others have similar showings of escaping or a Zone Eater situation.

 

[Schnee_One]

Zep has been banned for a month

You may continue in peace

 

[TartaChocholate]

@DMUA: True though, the power of the characters in itself is strictly in the service of the story events or their development.

@HST: Regarding Shiva, what about people who can channel her power in one way or another?

I always figured the Toneberries would fit into a form of Madness Manipulation. I could be wrong though.

The Dissidia entry on Atomos seems to be talking about his gravity related powers when it comes to the molecular level and devouring them as a follow up move.

The void having passive Void Manipulations is valid? I can't remember well FFV.

 

[HST_Master]

They would just gain Absolute Zero via Shiva unless they gain resistances directly from her.

Honestly it could be either or, depending on the context.

Fair Enough

Considering it's the reason for NE's NPI, yeah.

 

[Bware1]

There was already a discussion about gaining resistance to Absolute Zero via channeling Shiva that was accepted.

 

[HST_Master]

Then they'd be able to scale as well.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Bware: I remember. I kinda had a bit of doubt if things had changed about it in this time.

@Hst: The Dissidia Compendium is so far the only mention of the Toneberries' gaze I have found. Most other entries in materials usually mention their Karma ability or the chief knife, I'll look for more info in that regard.. But going both ways could work pretty well.

Sweet then it can be added as a resistance to those who entered the Void without detrimetal effects.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we close this thread? It is very unlikely that it will be accepted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think we might as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

DMUA asked me to reopen this thread.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, unless I misunderstood, HST and Tarta at the very least are totally on board with the resistances, though they haven't cleared their stance on Low 2-C Dissida keys

 

[TartaChocholate]

The abilities proposed make sense so it's worth a shot to discuss a bit more what can we get from them.

I am mostly neutral on the Low 2-C keys for Dissidia and scaling to Gilgamesh, mostly because I was waiting for more input, as I really didn't know much about the issue myself. There's some stuff I'd like to know on the issue, at least.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Everlasting appears strongly against giving everyone Dissidia keys or Low 2-C Gilgamesh.

But the abilities and resistances could be discussed in that case.

 

[DMUA]

To quote Promestein on another thread, We should not derail and delay revisions for the sake of someone offsite.

So unless you have anything further on Dissidia keys, I don't see a reason it should be turned down. I don't know enough about Gilgamesh to comment further, but regardless.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I too I'm not a fan of Low 2-C keys for "everyone" however the abilities/resistance's seem fair and I'll assume the only (hypothetical) tier 2 upgrades will only apply to the FF1 cast?.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already listed the reasons above about the numerous inconsistencies for Dissidia, and not every single Final Fantasy character has there Dissidia incarnations being assumed to be a much stronger future self of their past selves. Noctis for instance was his pre-timeskip version in Dissidia NT + he dies in the end of XV. So he shouldn't even have a Dissidia key as the entire thing is just one big Outlier for him.

The only thing consistent is in Dissidia is it setting up the back story for the first Final Fantasy game.

 

[DMUA]

If you're going to not be a fan, would you at least consider

Dissida is it's own thing, with it's own feats. The OP already suggested splitting them into another key entirely, since they're after the events of their own story (And it's not like dramatic escalation overtime is new to FF, see like... every single game, probably?)

As I said, I dunno much about FF, so I won't say anything about Gilgamesh, but unless you have actual examples as opposed to slapping random ratings from their own series and saying obviously it's irrevocably inconsistent, meanwhile, to quote a page I very much remember even after the supposed G+ migration, "all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable."

It being a later version of the characters who would have time to power up on their own is definitely reconcilable.

If you have something I haven't thought about, go ahead and mention it, but as of right now there's no real, logical reason to turn it down.

 

[HST_Master]

Yeah, I agree with the aforementioned resistances, and while I disagree with scaling from Gilgamesh, I'm neutral about dissidia keys overall.

 

[DMUA]

Noctis for instance was his pre-timeskip version in Dissidia NT + he dies in the end of XV. So he shouldn't even have a Dissidia key as the entire thing is just one big Outlier for him.

Noctis is a special case then, whatever. It still doesn't invalidate other characters.

 

[DMUA]

Oh, also

The timeskip was supposed to be a secret upon Dissida's release, and it wouldn't make sense to have this random beard dude representing FFXV

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Dissida unfortunately is sorta an enigma; it wouldn't be a problem if it was just a typical stand-alone crossover game however it's actually canon to the main series FF games (being the prequel to FF1 as well as expanding on the void/rift turning the FF franchise into a 2-A structure), leading to all manor of inconsistencies.

As much as I like to have my cake and eat it (don't get me wrong, tier 2 FF protags/villains/antags etc is something I've thought about in the past) but I just can't see how we can have Both crossover profiles/keys and "canon" profiles/keys when the crossover in question is technically "canon" too...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm misunderstanding this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't actually know if it takes place after any of the Final Fantasy games; and actually, the 2-A cosmology stuff comes from Ring of Fates and Crystal Chronicles. So asking me for a reason is asking me to prove a negative.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I didn't know Ring of Fates and CC were included in the scaling (I'll assume those games make direct references and connections to the main series FF games instead of just taking inspiration like the Bravely series?).

So will the FF1 cast get upgraded to Low 2-C? (the abilities/resistances seemed to be at least agreed on).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh, also
The timeskip was supposed to be a secret upon Dissida's release, and it wouldn't make sense to have this random beard dude representing FFXV

"That is an explanation, not an excuse."