GRAPPLER BAKI SPEED REVISIONS

Baki Speed Feats

It's time for a speed revision boys. Let's get this on. First, here's all the feats we'll be using.

Links to all feats below.

- There's tons of subsonic feats from the flashback arc but here's one https://m.imgur.com/a/EWKZG5z

- Hanayama blocks bullets while injured (Subsonic) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...er_feat,_this_time_with_a_speed_feat_included

- Sikorsky dodges a bullet (Transonic) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KGiffoni/Sikorsky_dodges_a_bullet

- Katsumi's Mach Fist (Supersonic)

- Yujiro catches an arrow (Hypersonic) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Reppuzan/Lina_Shields_-_Yujiro_Catches_an_Arrow

- Yujiro blitzes soldiers (Hypersonic+) https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Yujiro-s-casual-speed-Baki-801860288

- Musashi attempt a blitz (High Hypersonic) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TataHakai/Baki:_Musashi_attempts_a_blitz

- Kaku Kaioh's Mach Fist (High Hypersonic+) https://mangaxmate.com/read/10036/139806.html


Second thing to point out is adjustments to two calcs. Musashi's blitz and Yujiro's blitz. Yujiro's blitz used values to inflate the yield. After talking with a calc group member he suggested using subsonic reaction time. The average yield of the low end and high end was just over Mach 17. As for Musashi, the calc only has a low end using the 0.0009 second timeframe. This can be debated but I felt a mid end of about 0.0005 seconds was much more fair as Itagaki could have easily been implying 0.0001 as well. Anyway the calc with that value yields Mach 37.

Third, time to go over all the changes. I have listed the tiers I think fit best for each character with a small description behind my reasoning. If more details or clarification is needed comment below please.


Subsonic:

- 13yo Baki (FTE to regular people many many many times)

- 15yo Hanayama (Matched Baki)

- Yuri Chakovsky (FTE to regular people and matched Baki)

- Maximum Tournament Chiharu (Somewhat kept up with Iron Michael who should be at least this fast)

- Richard Filth (One of the slower fighters but shouldn't be below this)

- Sam Pierre Atlas (Should be comparable to Yuri)

- Yasha Ape Sr (Matched Baki)


At least Subsonic likely higher:

- 13yo Baki Post Gaia (Perceived those beautiful was equal with before as slow)

- Grappler Baki Gaia (Only barely lost to 13yo Baki)

- Beginning of Series Baki (Far faster than before)

- Yasha Ape Jr (Faster than Yasha Ape Sr but couldn't tag Baki until he allowed it)


Subsonic+:

- Maximum Tournament Hanayama (Upscaled from his Subsonic feat as he performed it while in a near death state. Hana should have Supersonic reaction speed only, given he can react to attacks from faster characters but is not nearly as fast. This was best seen when he could react to Katsumi's Mach Punch but couldn't move fast enough to block or counter it)

- T-Rex (Comparable to Hanayama)

- Zulu (Tagged a very casual Baki)


At least Transonic:

- T-Rex (The Dinosaur) (Confirmed to break the sound barrier but far slower than Pickle)


Supersonic:

- Garland (Faster than Hanayama and matched a casual Jack)

- Spec (Faster than Hanayama, shouldn't be too far below the other convicts)

- Doyle (Can barley react to an attack from Baki, somewhat reacted to Katsumi's assaults)

- Sikorsky (Upscaled from his calc)

- NGB Gaia (Likely faster than Sikorsky)

- Yoh Kaioh (Given his rank he should be this fast)

- SOO Chiharu (Somewhat kept up with a very casual SOO Baki)

- Maximum Tournament Katsumi (Punches at Supersonic speeds, confirmed by Retsu in SOO)


At least Supersonic likely higher:

- Dorian (Faster than Katsumi can perceive)

- Maximum Tournament Doppo (Faster than Dorian)

- Goki Shibukawa (Comparable to Doppo and the main cast)

- Maximum Tournament Baki (Easily performed the Mach Punch, can blitz convicts like Sikorsky when he's serious)

- Maximum Tournament Jack Hanma (Overwhelmed Baki)

- Maximum Tournament Retsu (Matched Baki)

- Yanagi (Matched Baki and Shibukawa. His Benda Whip is likely superior to real whips in terms of speed which can reach above Mach 2)

- Motobe (Blitzed Yanagi)

- Muhammad Ali Jr (Superior to his father)

- Muhammad Ali Sr (Tagged a young Yujiro)


Hypersonic:

- Maximum Tournament Post Sex/Demon Back Baki (With his DB he blitzed Jack and at the end of NGB he easily blitzed Muhammad Ali Jr)

- SOO Base Baki (Stronger and faster than at the end of NGB)

- Base Pickle (Can blitz Jack and matched SOO Baki albeit he is slower)

- Deinonychus (Faster than Pickle)

- Baki Dou Hanayama (Could perceive a casual Yujiro's movements which should have him here at the very least)

- Baki Dou Doppo (Could very slightly tag a casual Musashi)

- Baki Dou Katsumi (Shouldn't be too far behind Doppo)

- Baki Dou Motobe (Could tag a casual Musashi)

- Baki Dou Jack (Comparable to if not superior than Motobe)

- Baki Dou Shibukawa (Reacted to Katsumi's attacks)


At Least Hypersonic:

- Biscuit Oliva (Much faster than SOO Base Baki, could attack Guevara before he could react)

- Che Guevara (Together with Oliva could blitz and KO Baki before he could react)

- Ron Shobun (Consistently depicted as faster than Oliva even after the latter got serious)

- SOO DB Baki (Matched Oliva in power and speed)

- Transformed Pickle (Comparable to but slower than Baki)

- Baki Dou Retsu (Forced Musashi to fight more serious)

- Prime Doppo (Superior to his Baki Dou self. Made Yujiro fight more serious)


At least Hypersonic+ possibly High Hypersonic:

- Base Baki Dou Baki (Scales to Yujiro's calc)

- Nomi no Sukune (Matched Baki Dou Baki)

- Prime Doppo with Sangan (Scales to Yujiro's calc)


High Hypersonic:

- Musashi (Scales to his calc)

- Base Yujiro (Faster than Musashi)

- Base Yuichiro (Comparable to Yujiro)

- Kaku Kaioh (Comparable to Yujiro)


At Least High Hypersonic likely higher:

- DB Yujiro (Should be far faster than anything in the verse including the Mach Fist)

- DB Yuichiro (Comparable to Yujiro)

- DB Baki Dou Baki (Matched a serious DB Yujiro for an extended period of time)

- FP Musashi (Faster than Baki)


High Hypersonic+:

- Katsumi with Mach Fist (This speed can only be reached when using the Perfected Mach Fist)

- Kaku Kaioh with Mach Fist (Same as Katsumi)


Now what does everyone think?

Why wouldn't Baki Dou Baki, Nomi no Sukune, and Prime Doppo with Sangan be High Hypersonic

Following

What about Yujiro dodging lightning?

Following

Also, will speed amps be addressed? I found several speed amps difficult to use in a recent argument because some moves are listed as speed amps, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence to indicate so (though I may no have seen why they were listed as amps)

BakiHanma18 said:

Also, will speed amps be addressed? I found several speed amps difficult to use in a recent argument because some moves are listed as speed amps, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence to indicate so (though I may no have seen why they were listed as amps)

Click to expand...

What moves are you refering to?

KGiffoni said:

BakiHanma18 said:

Also, will speed amps be addressed? I found several speed amps difficult to use in a recent argument because some moves are listed as speed amps, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence to indicate so (though I may no have seen why they were listed as amps)

Click to expand...

What moves are you refering to?

Click to expand...

To name a few, Mach Punch and Hitless Blow, Hans Pocket, and Apnea Rush, and Cockroach Tackle. Some of the amps I was mentioning for Ikki v Yujiro

@Promestein

That's where Yujiro's feat is. High Hypersonic is Musashi's top speed. I didn't think personally that those 3 have done enough to scale to a full power Base Yujiro as Yujiro was likely holding back against Doppo and was holding back against Baki. But if more people agree with HH I'm good with that too.

@The Ogre69

Simply put it's a massive outlier. Way higher than anything else shown.

@BakiHanma

Honestly not sure how to go about some of the speed amps.

Amlad22 said:

@Promestein
That's where Yujiro's feat is. High Hypersonic is Musashi's top speed. I didn't think personally that those 3 have done enough to scale to a full power Base Yujiro as Yujiro was likely holding back against Doppo and was holding back against Baki. But if more people agree with HH I'm good with that too.

@The Ogre69

Simply put it's a massive outlier. Way higher than anything else shown.

@BakiHanma

Honestly not sure how to go about some of the speed amps.

Click to expand...

Is it possible to say that as character is X speed, Y speed with whatever amp?

I mean if we can get a good multiplier on the amp I'm sure we can. There are some that we can somewhat get a good grasp on. Like hand pocket. Doppo is able to match Ali Jr's speed despite being slower than him before. Even then it's hard to get an exact amp multiplier.

Amlad22 said:

I mean if we can get a good multiplier on the amp I'm sure we can. There are some that we can somewhat get a good grasp on. Like hand pocket. Doppo is able to match Ali Jr's speed despite being slower than him before. Even then it's hard to get an exact amp multiplier.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll try to help with anything. It's been quite difficult to argue about anything to do with speed amps

The only speed amp I can think of that we can get a good multiplier for would be Sangan. Doppo goes from reaction speed of At least Mach 6.8 to Mach 17.38. So a 2.55x increase in reaction speed.

Amlad22 said:

The only speed amp I can think of that we can get a good multiplier for would be Sangan. Doppo goes from reaction speed of At least Mach 6.8 to Mach 17.38. So a 2.55x increase in reaction speed.

Click to expand...

What about that calc for Cockroach Tackle? Where would I put his acceleration?

Probably best to ask a calc group member for anything else

Bump

This seems to make sense to me, but we should wait for a response from Promestein.

So far everything looks fine for me too

Should any other staff members be contacted?

All the calcs need to be evaluated.

The ogre69 said:

What about Yujiro dodging lightning?

Click to expand...

Why is this an outlier?

I also don't think Sikorsky's feat is notable. Gaia was in the process of talking about how he's going to fight with his own abilities, not weapons. He almost certainly just shot right in front of Sikorsky's foot to **** with him.

Don't see why Katsumi would be "at least Supersonic" for punching faster than sound with his greatest technique. Just Supersonic for Katsumi. Probably just Supersonic for Maximum Tournament characters in general, honestly. The Convicts too.

Dorian blitzing an offguard Katsumi with dirty tactics =/= Dorian is faster than he can perceive. Wait I forgot about the rock feat.

I have some Baki revisions of my own planned, I'll get back to this stuff once I'm finished the series.

@Promestein

Thank you for helping out.

Most of the calcs are evaluated. Sikorsky's was reviewed by DMUA and the values for the Yujiro blitz were also reviewed by him. Musashi's blitz was already evaluated a while ago. Katsumi and Kaku Kaioh's are literally just statements nothing to calc there. Hanayama's I think may need to be reviewed but I'm not sure. All the others are good though.

For Sikorsky I guess it's debatable. Doesn't really affect him much it's more a supporting feat.

If Katsumi is decided to be just Supersonic there's still a group of people like Dorian who should be At least Supersonic. I was in fact referring to the rock feat like you said.

If you have any more input please give it here. Because once we finalize who scales to what, the calcs are all evaluated so I can make the upgrades/downgrades.

@Schnee One

Bc it's way above what the current highest calcs are and makes no sense with other calcs done by Yujiro himself and other comparable to him.

My revisions aren't speed related.

Updated Musashi calc should be on a blog.

I'd say Son of Ogre Baki should be "At least Hypersonic+, possibly High Hypersonic". If Doppo doesn't scale to Yujiro AP wise he shouldn't scale speedwise at all either, even with Sangan.

I also don't like scaling DB to Katsumi and Kaku's perfect mach fists, especially when I don't remember DB boosting speed that much. If Sangan doesn't scale to Yujiro's full speed, why would Yujiro easily beating him after using DB imply it gave him a speed boost?

What are they then?

I'll put it on a blog when I can.

SOO Base Baki shouldn't scale any higher than Oliva even with his Demon Back. In case it's not clear, the SOO key for Baki goes till the Pickle fight. Then the End of SOO to Baki Dou key is from the Yujiro fight onwards.

Doppo 100% scales to Yujiro's calc. Power and speed are in no way the same and don't scale together at all. The whole time during that fight showed that Doppo could react to yujiro but couldn't do any harm. That's a clear example of matching his speed but not his power.

Demon Back Yujiro is the strongest and fastest thing in the series that's all it really is. It's common knowledge that he is at the top of the food chain in every and all ways. Also, DB gives a speed boost as seen in its first ever usage by Baki. Baki was being overwhelmed but then DB comes out and he gets him in a lock before Jack can react.

Mostly related to other stats and abilities.

I understand that, yes. You know what I mean.

Then why wouldn't Doppo be High Hypersonic?

That doesn't necessarily mean he's that much faster than anyone; when no one can hurt him and when he can easily kill anyone with his overwhelming strength and skill, what difference does it make?

Fair point.

Sounds good I'm excited for it.

Ah you're referring to Baki Dou Baki only. Yeah I don't see anything wrong with that. Unless anyone else does?

Bc Yujiro was only semi serious. His semi serious calc is the hypersonic+ one. High Hypersonic is full power Base Yujiro. If more people think a possibly High Hypersonic on Doppo is better I'm fine with that though. I see the arguments for both ways.

The idea that Katsumi > Yujiro in any way just doesn't make sense in the lore itself. Again I'm eager to see what others think about this topic as well as Doppo's speed.

But if he was semi serious, why wouldn't Doppo be 7-C? Either he's casual and Doppo doesn't scale or he's even semi-serious and he does.

I mean, it's just a single punch, one that obliterates Katsumi's arm in the process. Katsumi hits Yujiro, shatters his arm, and then Yujiro, who is completely unaffected, crushes his skull with a single punch.

I too think Prime Doppo should be 7-C. Not only did he make clear dents on Yujiro's chest, he also cutted both his wrists.


I'm neutral about Yujiro scaling above everyone in speed.

Because Doppo could only react to and parry Yujiro's attacks. He never once caused him actual harm. It's possible to keep up with someone's speed but not their AP.

Yeah I see your point.

@KGiffoni

The dents he made caused Yujiro no actual harm as stated by Doppo himself. I believe he said something like "I know you aren't harmed by those stop faking" and then Yujiro gets up and starts laughing.

Cutting his wrists is a manga only feat so it's no usable. Grappler Baki is one of the few cases where anime > manga for the first series since the anime was modelled to better fit Itagaki's later depiction of characters like Yujiro from NGB onwards.

I personally always interpret that phrase as in refering to Yujiro's insane pain tolerance (just like almost everyone in Baki). By instance, when Dorian cut Doppo's hand, it made him a good lot of damage (obviously) but it didn't stop or danify him at all, meaning the attack lost its effectiveness.

I mean in the case of Doppo vs Dorian it's made pretty clear that Doppo got ****** up. He's grunting in pain and Dorian asks him if he can continue fighting. With Yujiro aside from the markings there is nothing proving he got hurt. It's a lot less clear

I doubled checked the line though from the manga. The quote is very clearly saying Yujiro took no damage. With Doppo literally saying "I know more than anyone you've taken no damage". That's very clear cut. And it's consistent given that Yujiro nearly one shot Doppo with a casual attack right prior to this.

About Musashi's speed calc

Wasn't the whole "0.000...s" thing said by Tokugawa? Or was it the narrator?

Narrator

I see.

Amlad22 said:

@Schnee One

Bc it's way above what the current highest calcs are and makes no sense with other calcs done by Yujiro himself and other comparable to him.

Click to expand...

But wasn't it Yujiro dodging lightning himself? The feat below that is Hypersonic+ Which he massively upscales from.

Yujiro performing MHS shouldn't be an outlier, it's really not the insane of a speed jump

I agree with Schnee One. The jump isn't outlierish.

His semi serious feat is only Mach 17 and Musashi's feat is Mach 37. A user already did a calc of Yujiro dodging lightning cause there is a scan and it was above Mach 300. That's a 10x increase. Unless the calc is just way off it seems extremely outlierish

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dark-Carioca/Yujiro_dodges_lightning

8x actually. And considering Yujiro is vastly above Musashi, it's not an outlierish gap.