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Help needed with The Dark Tower revisions

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Antvasima

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Hello.

As we started to discuss here, Ga, the Crimson King, and all the characters that are scaled from them, need to have their statistics revised according to our Tiering System revisions. Help from knowledgeable members would be very appreciated.
 
I'd recommend AogiriKira is contacted for this. While I'm not entirely certain how far she has gone, she's explicitly stated before that she's been tackling the full series in detail and it seems as though she'd be capable of handling major revisions.
 
@DarkGrath

Feel free to inform her about this thread.
 
I would love to help, but I only read the first 2 books and neither even just reference cosmic stuff, can't really do much
 
Okay. No problem.
 
I'm already working on revisions. I was actually given the go ahead to read through and help revise the verse by Aeyu and King over Discord.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the verse. And even well before Mr King retired, he did make a post on his wall basically saying. "This will be the last Dark Tower Revision I will be making" back when he made that previous major revision thread. However, I am friends with both Mr King and Aeyu on discord, so I could ask them if needed.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the verse. And even well before Mr King retired, he did make a post on his wall basically saying. "This will be the last Dark Tower Revision I will be making" back when he made that previous major revision thread. However, I am friends with both Mr King and Aeyu on discord, so I could ask them if needed.
Click to expand...
I already said i'm working on it at their behalf
 
Don't particularly have a horse in this race, but it should be noted that Dis is Gan's dark half, and peer in general power. It can do everything that Gan can do, except bent towards the cause of Evil. So, by all means it should scale to Gan if we're factoring in the current system.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Not exactly. CK being a part of gan doesen't make them equal. Everything is a part of Gan.
Click to expand...
Dis is not visibly inferior to Gan. Not in any way that matters at least. They're both peers in power, which is why they're in the cosmic deadlock.

Also, it's less that Dis is a "part" of Gan, and more it's the dark reflection and polar opposite to it. It's the Red to Gan's White. Everything stems from it in much the same way that everything stems from Gan.
 
Pennywise might be abstract

"Just as the shining of a bright light inevitably creates shadow, so the birth of the Guardians inevitably gave rise to their opposites - the Demon Aspects of the Beam known as the Demon Elementals. Just as each Beam has two Guardians that oversee the well-being of the mortal world, so each Beam has a shadow side, and attached to this shadow is a hermaphroditic Demon Elemental that oversees the invisible world of speaking demons, ghosts, and ill-sicks. Although there are twelve Guardians there are only six Demon Elementals. However each Demon Elemental has a male and female aspect or self, each of which guards one Beam termination point"
 
Could somebody ask MrKingOfNegativity what he thinks via Discord and tell us about it here?
 
MrKing has informed me he's getting tired of people bothering him with the topic at hand and other similar stuff; but I could perhaps ask Aeyu.
 
MrKing sent me this message to relay:


You people continue to amaze me... Every time one of you messages me to respond to some thread, I have prefaced every response I have given with "I am retired, and I do not want to be bothered with these things anymore". But I don't think it's managed to sink in yet, so I'm going to say it one last time, as pointedly as I can say it; Do not message me about anything related to the wiki anymore. Don't do it. I am retired, I have left the site, and I am not interested in responding. And what am I even responding to here? Reading through this thread, there's no concentrated, organized effort going on at all. None of you even seem like you know what you're doing, and a good chunk of the posts here seem like half-educated guesses and wild shots in the dark. Are you asking me to give advice, or are you asking me to start leading you again? One of the members, Aogikira, has been putting time into actually reading the books in the series and compiling everything she can find. If you all really want this revision to go somewhere, faster than it's going right now? Do the same. Read the source, compile the info, and work together to get something done. And please, I'll reiterate it one last time. Stop trying to contact me for things like this.
If necessary I can upload the discord screenshot of it as well, but I rather dislike doing so, too easily manipulated in any case to be reliable.
 
Okay. My apologies to MrKing about being impatient here.
 
His irritation over this is quite understandable.

As it stands however, a lot of information regarding Dark Tower's highest tiers needs to be revised. MrKing has already stated he's not interested in it, so contacting him isn't going to do anything. Best to do as he stated and get around to compiling information from the sources and using that to aid in revisions. I'm still pretty firm that Dis would scale to Gan, solely based on what's provided in the books, all said.
 
AuruilImperator said:
I'm still pretty firm that Dis would scale to Gan, solely based on what's provided in the books, all said.
Click to expand...
Hard disagree, going based solely in the books. If comics were canon, 100% undeniable. Books-only? Hell no. The only thing we ever have to go off of is one person, whom we already shouldn't trust, stating that he is Gan's crazy half. That, if true, could imply literally infinite things, and is pretty sketchy insofar as scaling one singular untrustworthy statement to someone being Tier 1-A.

I think using the Unknow rating is best. Even accounting for his influencing the Tower's song in Book 7 (the Tower and its Beams were already failing quite heavily at this point, for what that's worth), in no way is it implied that Gan was even trying to prevent such a thing, or that Gan himself didn't simply....want such a thing to happen since it was what Stephen King wrote (yay plot arguments since Stephen King made them canon to his story).
 
Both Azzy and MrKing were our main Dark Tower experts, and now they're both gone.
 
They are, yes. But it's not as if we dont have people around still. Hell, MrKing and I talked for hours about DT revisions during the first thread
 
Well, it is very important that we try our best to evaluate if Gan truly qualifies as tier 0 according to our new system.

Also, Azathoth has stated that he will still stick around to help out with the Cthulhu Mythos revisions, and has not removed his bureaucrat status yet, so maybe somebody could ask him via Discord as well?
 
Xulrev said:
AuruilImperator said:
I'm still pretty firm that Dis would scale to Gan, solely based on what's provided in the books, all said.
Click to expand...
Hard disagree, going based solely in the books. If comics were canon, 100% undeniable. Books-only? Hell no. The only thing we ever have to go off of is one person, whom we already shouldn't trust, stating that he is Gan's crazy half. That, if true, could imply literally infinite things, and is pretty sketchy insofar as scaling one singular untrustworthy statement to someone being Tier 1-A.
I think using the Unknow rating is best. Even accounting for his influencing the Tower's song in Book 7 (the Tower and its Beams were already failing quite heavily at this point, for what that's worth), in no way is it implied that Gan was even trying to prevent such a thing, or that Gan himself didn't simply....want such a thing to happen since it was what Stephen King wrote (yay plot arguments since Stephen King made them canon to his story).
Click to expand...
I have no idea why you're so adamant on the whole "ree comics" thing. Like, the whole supporting line for the Outer Dark manifesting alongside Gan isn't even from the comic stories proper, but from a short narrative included with them.
 
Of course, just making the character Unknow might sound reasonable now, but it goes against what we actually know regarding Dis and the general power we can attribute to it or infer regarding it. And that will simply lead to dumb arguments down the line regarding what tier he should actually be in. As is, it literally doesn't make sense for the Red to be significantly inferior to the White. In fact, it utterly destroys the entire narrative of the Mythos, as Gan could simply edit it away and have Roland reach the top of the Tower and win forever.

So, I'm completely against this idea or anything regarding it. It's essentially a cop-out from having to try and properly tier the character.
 
Btw Mir, aka the Bear, should be pretty simple to revise since he just scales to Maturin, as they're both Beam Guardians of equal status.
 
Should Gan still be tier 0? Our standards for this have turned much harder to fulfill.
 
@Ant

I actually don't think a CRT would be needed for Gan after reading through what definition for Tier 0 is necessary, it's rather straightforward.

Pennywise is already accepted as 1-A. Maturin the Turtle, as well.

Two 1-A creations are literal fictions to Gan, things that he wholesale fabricated and things that rely upon his will alone to make real; not only that, but they are fictional things to him. Has has Stephen King write stories to make them 'real' on some level of The Tower.

I don't think much insofar as rationale for Gan has altered even with the Tiering Shakeup, it's rather straightforward
 
Me: Guys im working on revisions and reading the books, just gimme some time

Everyone: Ignores

Me: allihavearenegativethoughts.jpg
 
A single degree of reality-fiction difference with 1-A beings is not remotely enough to even qualify for 1-A+ as far as I am aware.
 
@Kira

I've already read everything, I was in the group chat when you joined and already had discussed literally everything with MrKingofNegativity for quite some time. Ant needs these revisions done soon, so I acquiesced. It's nothing against you, it's just that I don't foresee a hugely different conclusion being reached unless you vastly disagree on pretty objective material.

@Ant

Is that so? Hmmm, I would imagine at a bare minimum that Gan is High 1-A based on this: "Characters who can affect and create/destroy states or realms which are completely transcendent over infinitely-layered Outerversal hierarchies and any extensions thereof, as well as the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place", considering the framework in which the 1-A Maturin and Pennywise exist is his own fictionally-made world, and Gan is the Author of such.

If I'm simply mistaken here, I will discuss further with other persons. At the very least, however, I assumed Gan would be at least High 1-A
 
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