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The Dark Tower CRT: Crimson King Scaling and Randall Flagg Additio
Brief Overview
Ever since the re-haul of the wiki's general Tiering guidelines, and ever since the last round of Dark Tower revisions, the Crimson King has not had a....stable....relationship with tiering in general. There remain few on the wiki who can even engage the material at such a level as to comprehend what they're talking about accurately, and probably fewer still who can back it up with quotes.
Hopefully I can show you I fulfill both conditions necessary and accomplish my goal of putting the Crimson King at Tier: Unknown. Oh, and add a simple bit of Existence Erasure to Randall Flagg's profile,but nobody is here for that
Here we go.
The Crimson King's Scaling Or Lack Thereof
Simply put, his scaling doesn't truly exist at the moment.
We have, on the wiki, superfluous and shaky scaling to put The Crimson King as comparable to Gan himself at best, and outright fallacious scaling at worst. Ever since MrKingofNegativity's thread in conjunction with several other Staff and persons (such as myself) to remove the comics scaling, his current profile is woefully inadequate and relies on non-canon support for his rating.
I will firstly lay out why I personally believe the Crimson King does not, in any way, scale to the higher echelons of The White (the forces of Good and will of Gan, do ya ken).
For starters, Black Thirteen, a crystal ball which is The True Crimson King's actual eye given form in the world, completely and utterly fails to overwhelm a prayer to God (Gan) from a Priest and a Boy asking for it to be silenced:
Case 1: The Crimson King's entire plan for reshaping the world that comes after the fall of the Tower relies on using hundreds of psychics to break the Beams that uphold it over several decades, if not centuries, of time, only accelerating once a psychic whose power is to amp others comes along and speeds up the whole thing by decades. If we accept the King to scale remotely to Gan or the Tower, why is it that he himself is outright incapable of snapping the supports of the Tower without centuries of planning and plotting? He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.
Case 2: The Crimson King's entire plan for after the Tower falls is to rebuild the Prim (a sea of primal soup, essentially) after the fall of reality into his own image/creation. This is seen as a feat on-par with the power of The Dark Tower itself.....with literally no support. If the Tower falls, so too does the very rationale that gives the entire Dark Tower-verse its current rating. For all we know, he plans on making a big Todash Lego playset to swing around on in the Prim. Literally, and I do mean quite literally, nothing at all whatsoever supports the theory that he could rebuild the infinite levels of infinite realities of infinite size. He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.
Narratively, The Crimson King is in no way comparable, remotely, to Gan or the Tower, and for that we say thankee-sai. To claim ol' Red scales to Gan would be akin to saying Batman scales to Superman because with prep Bruce can take on The Man of Steel. Using Kryptonite and tech to beat Superman is a pretty apt allegory for what ol' Red does to take on the Tower, except it takes him centuries of work. I believe hardly anyone with a rational mind would say "Bruce scales to Clark Kent because he could beat Superman after several hundred years of prep to infuse the air around him with Kryptonite and then Superman collapsed". It's simply silly.
To be entirely fair, however, let's examine some claims I am certain will be brought forth for The Crimon King 'scaling' to the Tower directly.
The Crimson King And Why He SHOULD Scale
There is, exactly, precisely, and only in existence a single route of argumentation for why the Crimson King MIGHT scale that is sturdy. A second argument exists, but it's literally fluff.
The Argument: The Crimson King alters the song of The Dark Tower to put Roland and what little of his ka-tet remains to sleep. In full:
The field of Roses around the Tower is described as feeding the Beams and vice-versa and carrying the pulse of the Tower's sweet song along to the ka-tet, and given the fact of the Beams and their lack of vitality, and given the lack of Ka itself being in the story anymore...it's impossible to argue that the Crimson King scales from this, given all the anti-feats he has.
The Second Argument: Ol' Red is said, in a one-off statement, to be 'Gan's crazy side'.
From three persons impersonating The Crimson King's Ego, Superego, and Id:
Thus concludes my rather lengthy CRT's portion about Ol' Red. But let's move on to Marten Broadcloak, The Walking Dude, The Covenant Man himself: Randall Flagg.
Randall Flagg Existence Erasure Profile Additio
This is rather straightforward, Randall Flagg needs to have Existence Erasure added to his profile since, in the unabridged version of The Stand he simply vanishes a man with a snap of his fingers in Flagg's first appearance:
1. The Crimson King fails to ever overcome Gan in a confrontation, Red-against-White
2. The Crimson King requires immense and lengthy outside aid to even assail Gan's physical form made manifest
3. The Crimson King is stated by reputable sources to be unable to even assail the Guardians of Gan's physical form made manifest
4. The Crimson King is stated to be able to remake a universe that has no physics or laws or size to constrain it. Unquantifiable
5. The Crimson King is capable of manipulating the song of The Dark Tower in one instance when beyond the veil of Ka, Gan's will. This is done when the Tower is nearly falling, and therefore unquantifiable and not scaleable.
6. The Crimson King is stated to be Gan's 'crazy side', whatever that even means. This is followed up by the person claiming it not reiterating he was telling the truth on that point, but rather curiously the person reiterates every single other claim made as being true. Unquantifiable.
Taken everything into account, The Crimson King ought not scale whatsoever, and needs to be placed at an Unknown rating. Randall Flagg also gets Existence Erasure added to his profile as an ability.
Thanks for reading if you stuck with me all the way to down here
Brief Overview
Ever since the re-haul of the wiki's general Tiering guidelines, and ever since the last round of Dark Tower revisions, the Crimson King has not had a....stable....relationship with tiering in general. There remain few on the wiki who can even engage the material at such a level as to comprehend what they're talking about accurately, and probably fewer still who can back it up with quotes.
Hopefully I can show you I fulfill both conditions necessary and accomplish my goal of putting the Crimson King at Tier: Unknown. Oh, and add a simple bit of Existence Erasure to Randall Flagg's profile,
Here we go.
The Crimson King's Scaling Or Lack Thereof
Simply put, his scaling doesn't truly exist at the moment.
We have, on the wiki, superfluous and shaky scaling to put The Crimson King as comparable to Gan himself at best, and outright fallacious scaling at worst. Ever since MrKingofNegativity's thread in conjunction with several other Staff and persons (such as myself) to remove the comics scaling, his current profile is woefully inadequate and relies on non-canon support for his rating.
I will firstly lay out why I personally believe the Crimson King does not, in any way, scale to the higher echelons of The White (the forces of Good and will of Gan, do ya ken).
For starters, Black Thirteen, a crystal ball which is The True Crimson King's actual eye given form in the world, completely and utterly fails to overwhelm a prayer to God (Gan) from a Priest and a Boy asking for it to be silenced:
God, not my will but Thine. Not the potter but the potter's clay. If I can't do anything else, help me to take it in my arms and jump out the window and destroy the gods-damned thing once and for all. But if it be Your will to help me make it still, instead—to make it go back to sleep—then send me Your strength. And help me to remember… Drugged by Black Thirteen he might have been, but Jake still hadn't lost his touch. Now he plucked the rest of the thought out of the Pere's mind and spoke it aloud, only changing the word Callahan used to the one Roland had taught them. "I need no sigul," Jake said. "Not the potter but the potter's clay, and I need no sigul!" "God," Callahan said. The word was as heavy as a stone, but once it was out of his mouth, the rest of them came easier. "God, if You're still there, if You still hear me, this is Callahan. Please still this thing, Lord. Please send it back to sleep. I ask it in the name of Jesus." "In the name of the White," Jake said. "Ite!" Oy yapped. "Amen," said the maid in a stoned, bemused voice. For a moment the droning idiot's song from the box rose another notch, and Callahan understood it was hopeless, that not even God Almighty could stand against Black Thirteen. Then it fell silent. |
- A very straightforward thing occurs here: Black Thirteen actively tries to interfere with the people around it and throw their plans into disarray, and with a prayer to Gan, it is forcibly, against its will and struggle, silenced without effort. Black Thirteen is the King's True Eye, and Gan smacks it down without effort through a simple Prayer. Proof for it being the King's Eye since people will rightfully ask:
The lid of the box closes and he feels a moment of sublime relief… but then it opens again, very slowly, disclosing the eye. "No, " Callahan whispers. "Please, no. " But he's not able to close the box-all his strength seems to have deserted him-and it will not close itself. Deep down in the black eye, a red speck forms, glows… grows. Callahan's horror swells, filling his throat, threatening to stop his heart with its chill. It's the King, he thinks. It's the Eye of the Crimson King as he looks down from his place in the Dark Tower. And he is seeing me. |
- This interaction alone is enough, in my view, to destroy any concept of 'He scales to Gan'; he's infinitely weaker. However, we do get explicit statements that the Red King is in no way comparable to even the Guardians of the Beams, let alone the Beams, let alone the Tower, let alone Gan. Let's take a look shall we, the words come from Maerlyn the Great in The Wind Through The Keyhole:
Maerlyn nodded. "It's a sad world, Tim Ross. As for me, since this is the Beam of the Lion, 'twas his little joke to put me in the shape of a great cat. Although not in the shape of Aslan, for that's magic not even he can do...although he'd like to, aye. Or slay Aslan and all the other Guardians, so the Beams collapse." "The Covenant Man," Tim whispered. "Nay, nay, not he. Little magic and long life's all he's capable of. No, Tim, there's one far greater than he of the broad cloak. When the Great One points his finger from where he bides, the Broad Cloak scurries. But sending you was none of the Red King's bidding, and the one you call the Covenant Man will pay for his foolery, I'm sure." |
- Explicit statement from Maerlyn himself that the Red King, ol' Dis himself, lacks the magic and power to slay even the Guardians of the Beam.
Case 1: The Crimson King's entire plan for reshaping the world that comes after the fall of the Tower relies on using hundreds of psychics to break the Beams that uphold it over several decades, if not centuries, of time, only accelerating once a psychic whose power is to amp others comes along and speeds up the whole thing by decades. If we accept the King to scale remotely to Gan or the Tower, why is it that he himself is outright incapable of snapping the supports of the Tower without centuries of planning and plotting? He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.
Case 2: The Crimson King's entire plan for after the Tower falls is to rebuild the Prim (a sea of primal soup, essentially) after the fall of reality into his own image/creation. This is seen as a feat on-par with the power of The Dark Tower itself.....with literally no support. If the Tower falls, so too does the very rationale that gives the entire Dark Tower-verse its current rating. For all we know, he plans on making a big Todash Lego playset to swing around on in the Prim. Literally, and I do mean quite literally, nothing at all whatsoever supports the theory that he could rebuild the infinite levels of infinite realities of infinite size. He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.
Narratively, The Crimson King is in no way comparable, remotely, to Gan or the Tower, and for that we say thankee-sai. To claim ol' Red scales to Gan would be akin to saying Batman scales to Superman because with prep Bruce can take on The Man of Steel. Using Kryptonite and tech to beat Superman is a pretty apt allegory for what ol' Red does to take on the Tower, except it takes him centuries of work. I believe hardly anyone with a rational mind would say "Bruce scales to Clark Kent because he could beat Superman after several hundred years of prep to infuse the air around him with Kryptonite and then Superman collapsed". It's simply silly.
To be entirely fair, however, let's examine some claims I am certain will be brought forth for The Crimon King 'scaling' to the Tower directly.
The Crimson King And Why He SHOULD Scale
There is, exactly, precisely, and only in existence a single route of argumentation for why the Crimson King MIGHT scale that is sturdy. A second argument exists, but it's literally fluff.
The Argument: The Crimson King alters the song of The Dark Tower to put Roland and what little of his ka-tet remains to sleep. In full:
He relaxed, ready to let the change sweep over him, and then another voice spoke from the center of his mind. It was the voice of his Red Daddy, the one who was imprisoned on the side of the Dark Tower and needed Mordred alive, at least one more day, in order to set him free. Wait a little longer, this voice counseled. Wait a little more. I might have another trick up my sleeve. Wait… wait just a little longer… Mordred waited. And after a moment or two, he felt the pulse from the Dark Tower change. Patrick felt that change, too. The pulse became soothing. And there were words in it, ones that blunted his eagerness to draw. He made another line, paused, then put his pencil aside and only looked up at Old Mother, who seemed to pulse in time with the words he heard in his head, words Roland would have recognized. |
- So there we have it. Ol' Red alters the soothing song of the Tower. Shouldn't be possible if Gan directly were involved and wanted Roland to achieve the tower, right?
- Good thing Gan wasn't involved here at all! From, quite literally, two chapters prior:
Surely those three who remained (four, counting himself) had outrun ka's umbrella. Not since the Prim receded had there been such a creature as Mordred Deschain, who was part hume and part of that rich and potent soup. Surely such a creature could never have been meant by ka to die such a mundane death as the one that now threatened: fever brought on by food-poisoning. |
- Ka, for those unaware, is literally Gan's will made manifest. A common theme in the books is that Ka is literally Stephen King writing the books out, and therefore the plot IS Ka. However, at this point in the books, and once before, Roland and his ka-tet manage to outrun Ka itself (don't ask), and this is one such case. They're forging their own destiny and fate, and Gan has none at all to do with it.
The field of Roses around the Tower is described as feeding the Beams and vice-versa and carrying the pulse of the Tower's sweet song along to the ka-tet, and given the fact of the Beams and their lack of vitality, and given the lack of Ka itself being in the story anymore...it's impossible to argue that the Crimson King scales from this, given all the anti-feats he has.
The Second Argument: Ol' Red is said, in a one-off statement, to be 'Gan's crazy side'.
From three persons impersonating The Crimson King's Ego, Superego, and Id:
"No perhaps about it," Fimalo said. "For ka is a wheel, and if a wheel be not broken, it will always roll. Unless the Crimson King can become either Lord of the Tower or its Lord High Executioner, all that was will eventually return." "Lunacy," said Fumalo. "And destructive lunacy, at that. But of course Big Red always was Gan's crazy side." He gave Susannah an ugly smirk and said, "That's Frooood, Lady Blackbird." |
- Well, there you have it. He absolutely must scale, right, because a single person serving in The Court Of The Crimson King believes him to be Gan's crazy side. Totally quantifiable, right? (This is sarcasm, if you didn't grasp it)
Well, except for the fact that he can't even forcibly climb the tower.
"We have reason to believe that he's been shunted onto a balcony of the Tower," Roland said. "Undead or not, he never could have gained the top without some sigul of the Eld; surely if he knew so much prophecy, then he knew that." Fimalo was smiling grimly. "Aye, but as Horatio held the bridge in a story told in Susannah's world, so Los', the Crimson King, now holds the Tower. He has found his way into its mouth but cannot climb to the top, 'tis true. Yet while he holds it hard, neither can you." |
- If he were a mirror of Gan, I'd find it incredible that he can't even climb the Tower which is Gan's form made manifest.
Further mitigating context is that, when pressed on if what he said was true, the person who claims The Crimson King to be Gan's crazy side only confirms the validity of everything else he said in the conversation.
"Swear to me that all you told us was true," she bade the ugly ancient sitting on the cobbled bridge and below the cold gaze of the crows, who were beginning to settle back to their former places. What she meant to learn or prove by this she had not the slightest idea. Would she know this man's lies, even now? Probably not. But she pressed on, just the same. "Swear it on the name of your father, and on his face, as well." The old man raised his right hand to her, palm out, and Susannah saw there were open sores even there. "I swear it on the name of Andrew John Cornwell, of Tioga Springs, New York. And on his face, too. The King of this castle really did run mad, and really did burst those Wizard's Glasses that had come into his hands. He really did force the staff to take poison and he really did watch them die." He flung out the hand he'd held up in pledge to the box of severed limbs. "Where do you think I got those, Lady Blackbird? Body Parts R Us?" |
- Simply put, the argumentation for The Crimson King scaling in any quantifiable way to Gan or the Tower falls flat in the face of explicit feats, statements, and narrative. The arguments, such as they are, for the Crimson King scaling are abysmal and rely on too much presumption to be valid in the face of the overwhelming evidence telling us he does not scale.
Thus concludes my rather lengthy CRT's portion about Ol' Red. But let's move on to Marten Broadcloak, The Walking Dude, The Covenant Man himself: Randall Flagg.
Randall Flagg Existence Erasure Profile Additio
This is rather straightforward, Randall Flagg needs to have Existence Erasure added to his profile since, in the unabridged version of The Stand he simply vanishes a man with a snap of his fingers in Flagg's first appearance:
The wind moaned through the shattered wing window of an old Plymouth and tiny living things rustled inside. Something else rustled behind him. He turned and it was Kit Bradenton, clad only in absurd yellow underpants, his poet's pot hanging over the waistband like an avalanche held in suspended animation. Bradenton walked toward him over the heaped remains of Detroit rolling iron. A leafspring pierced through his foot like crucifixion, but the wound was bloodless. Bradenton's navel was a black eye. The dark man snapped his fingers and Bradenton was gone. He grinned and walked back to the Buick. Laid his forehead against the slope of roof on the passenger's side. Time passed. At some length he straightened, still grinning. |
- He snaps his fingers, a man entirely disappears from reality. I don't think it gets more straightforward than this.
1. The Crimson King fails to ever overcome Gan in a confrontation, Red-against-White
2. The Crimson King requires immense and lengthy outside aid to even assail Gan's physical form made manifest
3. The Crimson King is stated by reputable sources to be unable to even assail the Guardians of Gan's physical form made manifest
4. The Crimson King is stated to be able to remake a universe that has no physics or laws or size to constrain it. Unquantifiable
5. The Crimson King is capable of manipulating the song of The Dark Tower in one instance when beyond the veil of Ka, Gan's will. This is done when the Tower is nearly falling, and therefore unquantifiable and not scaleable.
6. The Crimson King is stated to be Gan's 'crazy side', whatever that even means. This is followed up by the person claiming it not reiterating he was telling the truth on that point, but rather curiously the person reiterates every single other claim made as being true. Unquantifiable.
Taken everything into account, The Crimson King ought not scale whatsoever, and needs to be placed at an Unknown rating. Randall Flagg also gets Existence Erasure added to his profile as an ability.
Thanks for reading if you stuck with me all the way to down here