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We've been waiting for this one for quite a while.
Preface
Everyone is tired of the toxic bullshit that starts in every single Sonic thread. We're all bound to disagree: typically, the community and the moderators do. But this doesn't mean anyone should become hostile. Everyone's input is valuable: don't force the staff to make a staff only thread and take away everyone else's free speech because you get bent out of shape over of someone's beliefs. Whether you think it's wank or downplay, we all just want to agree in the end, so don't ruin civil discussion for anyone else.
Furthermore, don't throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people. Nobody cares about what evidence you have proving someone is a ********. Keep it to yourself, because it has no place in a fictional discussion thread on the internet.
And remember, that's exactly what this is. Just a discussion about fiction.
The Power of a Single Chaos Emerald
Currently we have a single Chaos Emerald at 5-B+. This is because of a calc where restoring the energy into a single Chaos Emerald shifted an entire continent. DMUA accepted the low-end, so this is useable.
Furthermore, the other feat we have a single Chaos Emerald's power is when one was used by Dr. Eggman to split the entirety of the planet into several pieces.
We already agreed with Planetary ratings for a single Chaos Emerald, so this is basically just review.
Classic Characters
Rather than what exact tier each character has, we need to know why, and what the status is of our tiering. I'll be covering things I feel should be added here as well.
Classic Sonic can defeat a machine made by Eggman that's powered by a single Chaos Emerald. He can also defeat many enemies in Sonic the Fighters amplified by their power. We know this because every single time a enemy is ever defeated, they lose a Chaos Emerald they had on hand. Furthermore, all characters in the franchise are shown to exploit the power of the Emeralds when they bring them into combat.
If you doubt the consistency of this, every single character in Sonic the Fighters can run the Sonic the Fighters gauntlet and defeat everybody amped by a single Chaos Emerald each. It's clear a single Classic character scales to a single Chaos Emerald, which, as we've covered, is Planet level+. It also makes sense to have these guys in the same tier as modern characters, just a bit apart.
Death Egg Robot
The Death Egg Robot is Eggman's strawng boy that appears to get clapped in most retro games. Pretty much typically whe the Death Egg Robot is destroyed, the Death Egg starts falling apart and explodes. From this we can draw that the Death Egg Robot supports it, since the Death Egg can't function and literally falls apart without it. The Death Egg is stated numerous times to be planetary, making the Death Egg Robot in turn planetary. The Death Egg Robot can also consistently be defeated by Sonic in the Classic/Transition Era, so this is just further evidence of Classic Sonic being 5-B.
Egg Dragoo
Dark Gaia is capable of pulling the same planet-splitting feat from Sonic Unleashed that was calc'ed at 7.2 yottatons.
The Egg Dragoon is made with Dark Gaia's energy, and Sonic is capable of defeating it in Sonic Generations.
Negative Chaos Energy
Whenever the Negative Chaos Energy is drained from the Chaos Emeralds, it turns them gray. We know this because of what Tails states in Sonic Adventure.
Thus, when Sonic has the energy sapped out of him in Sonic Unleashed, we know the beam Eggman fires is powered by Negative Chaos Energy, as the Chaos Emeralds are gray. The beam created a blast of 7.2 yottatons.
However, there is also a weapon called the Eclipse Cannon in the verse. This was created with the negative intention to destroy the planet, and it is powered by Chaos Emeralds, so we understand this is powered by Negative Chaos Energy. The Eclipse Cannon ca pierce through stars, which has been calc'ed at 3.736 ninatons.
Perfect Chaos
Sonic was unable to defeat Perfect Chaos in his own base form during Sonic Adventure. This is further proved by the scaling in this thread, because Classic Sonic scales to a single Chaos Emerald's rating of 5-B, and Adventure Sonic isn't too far ahead of that whereas Perfect Chaos had Negative Chaos Energy, which is 3.736 ninatons as shown above.
However, Sonic is getting more powerful every second, and he uses this to his advantage when he surpasses Perfect Chaos and can even defeat him in his base form during Sonic Generations. Furthermore, in that fight he has to run inside Perfect Chaos to damage him directly, and Chaos (along with all of his forms) is made of raw energy, meaning Sonic would have to be running through all of that powerful Negative Chaos Energy and not feel a thing.
This would mean Sonic scales above Negative Chaos Energy.
5-A Super forms
This needs to be removed.
Ultimately the idea of Large Planet level Super forms says that at their weakest they could still defeat Dark Gaia, who scales to the 7.2 yottaton feat. Super Sonic also defeated a lot of enemies with Planetary statements/feats.
However, the Chaos Emeralds weren't at their weakest. They had all just been recharged to their peaks, and even shifted entire continents upon awakening. How would they be weak when they've been restored to their prime? The entire plot of the game was getting the Chaos Emeralds recharged, and that's exactly what happened.
The very moment Super Sonic went in at Dark Gaia for an attack, he one-shot him. The Gaia Colossus had just attacked Dark Gaia, yes, but it also struggled against the latter throughout the fight, and needed Sonic's help to break its bonds.
In fact, any situation Super Sonic has been whipped out on an enemy with no tier 2 feats, he stomped them. Tier 5 for the Super forms just doesn't work.
Counter Arguments
"Dark Gaia caused the 7.2 yottaton feat"
No he didn't. It was a direct effect of the beam Eggman fired at Earth. We even see Dark Gaia slowly coming out as the planet comes apart before him, and he's not even interacting with it. The planet only split after Eggman had fired the beam, it was a direct effect of Negative Chaos Energy. When miniature Dark Gaia came out, all he did was spread his ghastly powers all over the planet and make everyone sad.
"The Eclipse Cannon piercing stars is a mistranslation of Hoshi, which can be better translated as planet"
That's not true. Even the English localization had piercing stars as the main idea for the Eclipse Cannon. The statements about destroying the planet aren't saying that's its peak potential, they're saying the planet is in danger because the Eclipse Cannon is capable of doing that.
Conclusion
Preface
Everyone is tired of the toxic bullshit that starts in every single Sonic thread. We're all bound to disagree: typically, the community and the moderators do. But this doesn't mean anyone should become hostile. Everyone's input is valuable: don't force the staff to make a staff only thread and take away everyone else's free speech because you get bent out of shape over of someone's beliefs. Whether you think it's wank or downplay, we all just want to agree in the end, so don't ruin civil discussion for anyone else.
Furthermore, don't throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people. Nobody cares about what evidence you have proving someone is a ********. Keep it to yourself, because it has no place in a fictional discussion thread on the internet.
And remember, that's exactly what this is. Just a discussion about fiction.
The Power of a Single Chaos Emerald
Currently we have a single Chaos Emerald at 5-B+. This is because of a calc where restoring the energy into a single Chaos Emerald shifted an entire continent. DMUA accepted the low-end, so this is useable.
Furthermore, the other feat we have a single Chaos Emerald's power is when one was used by Dr. Eggman to split the entirety of the planet into several pieces.
We already agreed with Planetary ratings for a single Chaos Emerald, so this is basically just review.
Classic Characters
Rather than what exact tier each character has, we need to know why, and what the status is of our tiering. I'll be covering things I feel should be added here as well.
Classic Sonic can defeat a machine made by Eggman that's powered by a single Chaos Emerald. He can also defeat many enemies in Sonic the Fighters amplified by their power. We know this because every single time a enemy is ever defeated, they lose a Chaos Emerald they had on hand. Furthermore, all characters in the franchise are shown to exploit the power of the Emeralds when they bring them into combat.
If you doubt the consistency of this, every single character in Sonic the Fighters can run the Sonic the Fighters gauntlet and defeat everybody amped by a single Chaos Emerald each. It's clear a single Classic character scales to a single Chaos Emerald, which, as we've covered, is Planet level+. It also makes sense to have these guys in the same tier as modern characters, just a bit apart.
Death Egg Robot
The Death Egg Robot is Eggman's strawng boy that appears to get clapped in most retro games. Pretty much typically whe the Death Egg Robot is destroyed, the Death Egg starts falling apart and explodes. From this we can draw that the Death Egg Robot supports it, since the Death Egg can't function and literally falls apart without it. The Death Egg is stated numerous times to be planetary, making the Death Egg Robot in turn planetary. The Death Egg Robot can also consistently be defeated by Sonic in the Classic/Transition Era, so this is just further evidence of Classic Sonic being 5-B.
Egg Dragoo
Dark Gaia is capable of pulling the same planet-splitting feat from Sonic Unleashed that was calc'ed at 7.2 yottatons.
The Egg Dragoon is made with Dark Gaia's energy, and Sonic is capable of defeating it in Sonic Generations.
Negative Chaos Energy
Whenever the Negative Chaos Energy is drained from the Chaos Emeralds, it turns them gray. We know this because of what Tails states in Sonic Adventure.
Thus, when Sonic has the energy sapped out of him in Sonic Unleashed, we know the beam Eggman fires is powered by Negative Chaos Energy, as the Chaos Emeralds are gray. The beam created a blast of 7.2 yottatons.
However, there is also a weapon called the Eclipse Cannon in the verse. This was created with the negative intention to destroy the planet, and it is powered by Chaos Emeralds, so we understand this is powered by Negative Chaos Energy. The Eclipse Cannon ca pierce through stars, which has been calc'ed at 3.736 ninatons.
Perfect Chaos
Sonic was unable to defeat Perfect Chaos in his own base form during Sonic Adventure. This is further proved by the scaling in this thread, because Classic Sonic scales to a single Chaos Emerald's rating of 5-B, and Adventure Sonic isn't too far ahead of that whereas Perfect Chaos had Negative Chaos Energy, which is 3.736 ninatons as shown above.
However, Sonic is getting more powerful every second, and he uses this to his advantage when he surpasses Perfect Chaos and can even defeat him in his base form during Sonic Generations. Furthermore, in that fight he has to run inside Perfect Chaos to damage him directly, and Chaos (along with all of his forms) is made of raw energy, meaning Sonic would have to be running through all of that powerful Negative Chaos Energy and not feel a thing.
This would mean Sonic scales above Negative Chaos Energy.
5-A Super forms
This needs to be removed.
Ultimately the idea of Large Planet level Super forms says that at their weakest they could still defeat Dark Gaia, who scales to the 7.2 yottaton feat. Super Sonic also defeated a lot of enemies with Planetary statements/feats.
However, the Chaos Emeralds weren't at their weakest. They had all just been recharged to their peaks, and even shifted entire continents upon awakening. How would they be weak when they've been restored to their prime? The entire plot of the game was getting the Chaos Emeralds recharged, and that's exactly what happened.
The very moment Super Sonic went in at Dark Gaia for an attack, he one-shot him. The Gaia Colossus had just attacked Dark Gaia, yes, but it also struggled against the latter throughout the fight, and needed Sonic's help to break its bonds.
In fact, any situation Super Sonic has been whipped out on an enemy with no tier 2 feats, he stomped them. Tier 5 for the Super forms just doesn't work.
Counter Arguments
"Dark Gaia caused the 7.2 yottaton feat"
No he didn't. It was a direct effect of the beam Eggman fired at Earth. We even see Dark Gaia slowly coming out as the planet comes apart before him, and he's not even interacting with it. The planet only split after Eggman had fired the beam, it was a direct effect of Negative Chaos Energy. When miniature Dark Gaia came out, all he did was spread his ghastly powers all over the planet and make everyone sad.
"The Eclipse Cannon piercing stars is a mistranslation of Hoshi, which can be better translated as planet"
That's not true. Even the English localization had piercing stars as the main idea for the Eclipse Cannon. The statements about destroying the planet aren't saying that's its peak potential, they're saying the planet is in danger because the Eclipse Cannon is capable of doing that.
Conclusion
- Classic Sonic (and characters that scale) should be 5-B+ (1.4090735898661726 yottatons) due to scaling to a single Chaos Emerald
- Transition/Adventure/Second Transition Era characters 5-B+ (1.4090735898661726 yottatons) due to being above Classic characters and scaling to multiple Chaos Emeralds
- Modern Sonic (and characters that scale) should be 5-A (3.736 ninatons) due to defeating the Egg Dragoon and Perfect Chaos
- Modern Sonic (currently), Infinite, the Phantom Ruby Death Egg Robot and the Custom Hero should be 5-A (unknown, above 3.736 ninatons) due to Infinite stomping Sonic in his first interaction, but Sonic after growth can defeat him, and the other two characters scale
- 5-A Super forms should not exist
