Bill Cipher and his 2-C bullshit.

Ayewale · Nov 4, 2019

Not much to say, the justifications for his 2-C rating are pretty awful to say the least. Well, at a glance they seem fine-ish, however a cursory investigation shows that they really fall apart. Let's look over each of the justifications for his feats.

-Removing the laws and restrictions of the universe. This isn't a destruction feat, so no. Doesn't justify his rating.

-Time Baby claiming he would rip all of existence if his rip into the dimension continued. Several problems with this justifying 2-C. First off, Time Baby was not at all saying that BC would literally destroy the universe, nor did he imply AP; perhaps, just perhaps he was referring to that his mere existence in a dimension causes it to destabilize itself over time due to chaos, as shown by the Nightmare Realm. Secondly, Time Baby's power is extremely hard to quantify, so we can't scale it to his own AP. Thirdly, there's a large possibility that Time Baby was overexaggerating or using hyperbole; he IS an actual baby in a lot of aspects after all, even if it clashes with his intelligence. I would not put it past him to be hyperbolic on how powerful BC is.

-Creating the Nightmare Dimension. Would be good justification, but there's nothing stating he created it. Or implying it.

-Ford acknowledging the threat Bill Cipher had to the wider multiverse. Okay, cool and all, except you realize that this doesn't relate to destruction at all; Ford never states nor implies that Bill Cipher is capable of destroying the universe/multiverse using sheer attack potency and was most likely referring to his various hax at hand, especially since a lot of the effects of Weirdmaggedon were from his residual existence in the realm. Him referring to his reality warping and chaos manipulation is MUCH more likely than sheer AP. Also add that Ford would have otherwise never seen a being even near Bill Cipher's power, so he would not have a good reference for this statement.

And....that's it! All of these justifications for 2-C are just awful and wrong. As a result of this, every single one of our beautiful Bill Cipher matches have to be undone as they're all worthless now. I'd suggest archiving them on his page (because there's a fuckload of them and I don't want to see those shit threads gone). As for his new tier, I would suggest 5-B via scaling to his Friends. Someone said he should be 4-B since he replaces the sun with himself in an animatic created by Alex Hirsch, but the canonicity of that is very questionable.

Typod2468 · Nov 4, 2019

People just wanna downgrade bill all day just downgrade him to plane level at this point ffs

Inverted_Tempest · Nov 4, 2019

This has already been discussed and rejected before. I don't really see the point in bringing it up again when the points are the exact same.

Ayewale · Nov 4, 2019

I hadn't noticed that it'd been brough up before, but I'll look at the other downgrade thread.

Ayewale · Nov 4, 2019

Actually, I really regret reading that thread. Most of it is shitpost and derailment. The few points that I saw that were serious (Elizhaa's points, wonderful member on here btw) seem to have been soundly debunked. They didn't really debate the OP (and my) points well at all, and Elizhaa's points didn't really debunk the OP's, though hers was somewhat sound. Overall, that thread was rejected because it was becoming shitpost central and assumingly Elizhaa didn't want it going on.

Eficiente · Nov 4, 2019

All the things in the second point are wrong

Ayewale said:
-Time Baby claiming he would rip all of existence if his rip into the dimension continued. Several problems with this justifying 2-C. First off, Time Baby was not at all saying that BC would literally destroy the universe, nor did he imply AP; perhaps, just perhaps he was referring to that his mere existence in a dimension causes it to destabilize itself over time due to chaos, as shown by the Nightmare Realm.

What you say Time Baby claimed is not at all what he said. "Destroy the very fabric of existence" does mean Low 2-C, and even more but that is currently rejected. Big explosion doing that does imply AP. The last thing is a headcanon.

Ayewale said:
Secondly, Time Baby's power is extremely hard to quantify, so we can't scale it to his own AP. Thirdly, there's a large possibility that Time Baby was overexaggerating or using hyperbole; he IS an actual baby in a lot of aspects after all, even if it clashes with his intelligence. I would not put it past him to be hyperbolic on how powerful BC is.

Vague words are vague. Not the case at all in context, do you even saw the video? Explosion+could destroy something=not overexaggerating or using hyperbole. Not the aspect shown there, he literally announces that he has something to say and is pretty clear about it.

I'm trying to remove the stuff about him removing the laws here, you can comment there if you want to help make everything related to this character a little less messy.

Ayewale · Nov 4, 2019

Actually, I've seen people say that Bill Cipher is 2-C based off him creating alternate realities within the bubbles that he makes. And while questionable, it could be true. In Mabel's bubble, for intsance, the characters seem to enter a whole other dimension inside it. They were also able to leave Mabel's bubble with characters from that bubble and end up in the real world. This is shown with Mabel's dream boyfriends and a Giant Waddles (granted, Waddles shrinks to normal size soon after leaving the Dream world, but he was still giant-size when entering the real world, which wouldn't be the case if it was an illusion).

This is a fair argument that Elizhaa nor anybody else brough up. I dunno why I'm providing arguments for the other side of this debate.

Ayewale · Nov 4, 2019

Also, every Bill Cipher downgrade CRT was never concluded due to the points been soundly rejected. Which is really telling on the discussion itself. If this thread could stay non-shitposty, it'd be great.

CinnabarManx421 · Nov 4, 2019

I'm... neutral on the downgrade for now. Though I don't know if using that scene where Bill was just saying that's what he was gonna do is a good way to Tier him. I don't think it's good for the Friends either.

Sadistic_Sleuth · Nov 5, 2019

>This again

Sadistic_Sleuth · Nov 5, 2019

Ayewale said:
Ford acknowledging the threat Bill Cipher had to the wider multiverse. Okay, cool and all, except you realize that this doesn't relate to destruction at all; Ford never states nor implies that Bill Cipher is capable of destroying the universe/multiverse using sheer attack potency and was most likely referring to his various hax at hand, especially since a lot of the effects of Weirdmaggedon were from his residual existence in the realm. Him referring to his reality warping and chaos manipulation is MUCH more likely than sheer AP. Also add that Ford would have otherwise never seen a being even near Bill Cipher's power, so he would not have a good reference for this statement.

A lot of members on this wiki claim that Bill's haxes are useless against 4D ~~which I don't even know where that even comes from~~

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

All of the Bill Cipher downgrade threads were cucked by derailment and weren't really closed at all due to the actual downgrade's points being rejected. So I'd love if this thread didn't meet the same fate.

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Changing time (like resetting or remaking it) with your own power is a Low 2-C feat, not everything requires destroying whole timelines, manipulating it on a cosmic scale can easily fit into this category. Also, the rip is the one Dipper failed to seal in Dipper and Mabel vs. the Future, not something created by Bill's presence in the universe. In fact, this was created by the activation of Ford Pines' portal, not even Bill (who just used it to make Weirdmageddon), I'm not even sure why it's on the page.

Ford: (Sighs) Okay, Stanley, here's the deal. You can stay here the rest of the summer to watch the kids. I'll stay down in the basement and try to contain any remaining damage. But when the summer's over, you give me my house back, you give me my name back, and this Mystery Shack junk is over forever. You got it?

Bill: Oh, quit playing dumb, IQ! You knew I'd be back! You think shutting down that portal could stop what I have planned? I've been making deals, chatting with old friends, preparing for the big day! You can't keep that rift safe forever. (Snaps his fingers and a copy of the dimensional rift appears in his hand) You'll slip up, and when you do...! (Throws the rift onto the ground, where it creates a massive portal in the shape of an upside-down triangle, burning the wheat field around Ford)

Ford: Yes, it's much faster than shaving. Now, listen, Dipper. I have a very important mission, and you are the only one who can help me. (Pulls out the rift) Remember the rift in dimensional space-time I showed you? It's cracking. (Points at crack) This is what Bill has been waiting for. If it breaks, it will cause reality as we know it to completely unravel. A hypothetical and catastrophic event I call Weirdmageddon.

"First off, Time Baby was not at all saying that BC would literally destroy the universe, nor did he imply AP; perhaps, just perhaps he was referring to that his mere existence in a dimension causes it to destabilize itself over time due to chaos, as shown by the Nightmare Realm."

Time Baby: (Projects a hologram of the universe) If your rip in this dimension continues, it could destroy the very fabric of existence! (The universe in the hologram explodes) Surrender now, or face my tantrum!

Time Baby is somewhat like a baby, yes, but that's literally no reason for him to be hyperbolic or lying, especially since he's portrayed as taking Bill's threat very seriously. Anyway, the rift wasn't even made by Bill.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Sees another Bill downgrade post

Not this again...

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

A lot of members on this wiki claim that Bill's haxes are useless against 4D ~~which I don't even know where that even comes from~~

Finally!!! Somebody else who never understood why Bill haxes are assumed by default to not work against 4D characters (and here, 4D characters are just 3D spatially with rD power. 4D spatially = 5D = High 2-A)

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Eficiente said:
I'm trying to remove the stuff about him removing the laws here, you can comment there if you want to help make everything related to this character a little less messy.

Isn't removing the laws of physics (such as stopping time ) is just physics / reality manipulation?

The_Popular_Loser · Nov 5, 2019

This party never stops! Time is dead, and meaning has no meaning. Existence is upside down and I reign supreme. Welcome one and all; to Weirdmaggedon!

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Why Bill wouldn't be Low 2-C at the very least? I'm fine with Bill not being 2-A, but 5-B is just such a massive downplay on him, especially since a 5-B rating makes no sense whatsoever.

Bill have been stated that weirdmaggedon (which was directly caused by him simply by him existing in the 3rd dimension) would destroy the very fabric of existance, which was portrayed as an explosion by the time baby (destroying the fabric of existance means that he would destroy the space-time of the entire universe, which is Low 2-C)

Also, Ford, along with Multiple other characters in Journal 3 (which is entirely canon) stated many times that Bill is a big threat to the entire infinite gf multiverse, and stopping him was a top priority for the multiverse's safety (based on the oracle's words to Ford. The oracle was said to know a lot about Bill).

Bill would never be able to even threaten one universe with a physical 3D *spatially* form with a 5-B rating, let alone an entire *infinite* multiverse.

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

Gilad Hyperstar said:
Why Bill wouldn't be Low 2-C at the very least? I'm fine with Bill not being 2-A, but 5-B is just such a massive downplay on him, especially since a 5-B rating makes no sense whatsoever.
Bill have been stated that weirdmaggedon (which was directly caused by him simply by him existing in the 3rd dimension) would destroy the very fabric of existance, which was portrayed as an explosion by the time baby (destroying the fabric of existance means that he would destroy the space-time of the entire universe, which is Low 2-C)

Also, Ford, along with Multiple other characters in Journal 3 (which is entirely canon) stated many times that Bill is a big threat to the entire infinite gf multiverse, and stopping him was a top priority for the multiverse's safety (based on the oracle's words to Ford. The oracle was said to know a lot about Bill).

Bill would never be able to even threaten one universe with a physical 3D *spatially* form with a 5-B rating, let alone an entire *infinite* multiverse.

Couldn't Bill just be over-dramatic? You guys are forgetting that Bill Cipher is an extremely dramatic and arrogant person. His statements aren't exactly the most reliable things to go off on. So we can't take statements from him seriously. (For example, he claims he's existed for all of eternity despite being confirmed that he has an age and was born from other people.)

Another thing is that, as I've already stated, his existence and chaotic nature destabilized the laws of the dimensions he was in, eventually destroying them. This is not an AP feat; it would refer to how he defies physics. Remember his impossible maze in the Nightmare dimension? The entire thing was a visual paradox and even Ford called it an impossibility. Him being a threat to all universes CLEARLY references to the fact that the laws of a universe are bent by his will and existence. However, altering the laws and physics of reality isn't an AP feat. He could not be 2-C.

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

ByAsura said:
Changing time (like resetting or remaking it) with your own power is a Low 2-C feat, not everything requires destroying whole timelines, manipulating it on a cosmic scale can easily fit into this category. Also, the rip is the one Dipper failed to seal in Dipper and Mabel vs. the Future, not something created by Bill's presence in the universe. In fact, this was created by the activation of Ford Pines' portal, not even Bill (who just used it to make Weirdmageddon), I'm not even sure why it's on the page.

Ford: (Sighs) Okay, Stanley, here's the deal. You can stay here the rest of the summer to watch the kids. I'll stay down in the basement and try to contain any remaining damage. But when the summer's over, you give me my house back, you give me my name back, and this Mystery Shack junk is over forever. You got it?

Bill: Oh, quit playing dumb, IQ! You knew I'd be back! You think shutting down that portal could stop what I have planned? I've been making deals, chatting with old friends, preparing for the big day! You can't keep that rift safe forever. (Snaps his fingers and a copy of the dimensional rift appears in his hand) You'll slip up, and when you do...! (Throws the rift onto the ground, where it creates a massive portal in the shape of an upside-down triangle, burning the wheat field around Ford)

Ford: Yes, it's much faster than shaving. Now, listen, Dipper. I have a very important mission, and you are the only one who can help me. (Pulls out the rift) Remember the rift in dimensional space-time I showed you? It's cracking. (Points at crack) This is what Bill has been waiting for. If it breaks, it will cause reality as we know it to completely unravel. A hypothetical and catastrophic event I call Weirdmageddon.

"First off, Time Baby was not at all saying that BC would literally destroy the universe, nor did he imply AP; perhaps, just perhaps he was referring to that his mere existence in a dimension causes it to destabilize itself over time due to chaos, as shown by the Nightmare Realm."

Time Baby: (Projects a hologram of the universe) If your rip in this dimension continues, it could destroy the very fabric of existence! (The universe in the hologram explodes) Surrender now, or face my tantrum!

Time Baby is somewhat like a baby, yes, but that's literally no reason for him to be hyperbolic or lying, especially since he's portrayed as taking Bill's threat very seriously. Anyway, the rift wasn't even made by Bill.

You just said he's a baby but you stated that being an infant doesn't mean your statements might be hyperbolic? That's a little odd. Also, if the rift wasn't made by Bill (which is true), then why are people mentioning it? Either way, he is still most likely referring to how bill would remove all physics and laws and eventually destroy the universe because of that.

Also, it's should be noted that Bill tried to get into the main GF universe because the Nightmare Realm was going to be destroyed, which was going to destroy him. So he can't even survive baseline 2-C attacks. Perhaps Bill might scale to him saying that he'd create a galaxy for Stan, but he was desperate and trying to find a way to survive at that moment. There's also the possibility that he would've just teleported Stan to another existing galaxy.

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

No, I said he's an infant, but that doesn't automatically mean he's being hyperbolic. Anyway, it's kind of irelevant, as Ford said the rift would unravel reality and Bill didn't even make it. Idk, I'm trying to debunk this whole rift thing here and now.

This is probably non-liberated Bill, tbf. It could also be interpreted as just visuals.

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

ByAsura said:
No, I said he's an infant, but that doesn't automatically mean he's being hyperbolic. Anyway, it's kind of irelevant, as Ford said the rift would unravel reality and Bill didn't even make it. Idk, I'm trying to debunk this whole rift thing here and now.
This is probably non-liberated Bill, tbf.

It might not make him auto-hyperbolic, but it certainly raises the chances of such.

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Like I said, it doesn't really matter.

@Everyone Like Ayewale said, the previous threads were buried by continuous derailment and meme posting, so I'd appreciate if you all stayed on-topic.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

You just said he's a baby but you stated that being an infant doesn't mean your statements might be hyperbolic? That's a little odd. Also, if the rift wasn't made by Bill (which is true), then why are people mentioning it? Either way, he is still most likely referring to how bill would remove all physics and laws and eventually destroy the universe because of that.

Also, it's should be noted that Bill tried to get into the main GF universe because the Nightmare Realm was going to be destroyed, which was going to destroy him. So he can't even survive baseline 2-C attacks. Perhaps Bill might scale to him saying that he'd create a galaxy for Stan, but he was desperate and trying to find a way to survive at that moment. There's also the possibility that he would've just teleported Stan to another existing galaxy.

First of all, Time Baby isn't just an "infant", he's the supreme ruler of the future, is guarding the entire universe's timeline (and as such, persumably knows all the events in the universe's timeline, since he needs to know how things should be in order to correct it), is immortal (meaning age doesn't matter) and is considered to be almost a god by the future's people. Also, Bill being afraid of the destruction of the nightmare realm doesn't at all indicate that his durability is less than Low 2-C. The gf Multiverse is a 2-A (High 2-A if the statement of gf multiverse having 5 dimensions is true), and destroying the nightmare realm would be destruction on a 2-A scale. That only means that Bill might not have 2-A durability, which he already don't have since he's no longer 2-A

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Quoting long posts a short space away from the original is unnecessary and clogs threads, particularly quotes within quotes. At the very least, get rid of the section where I speak.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Also, as for you "over-dramaric Time Baby claim", Time Baby was never shown to bluff or even lie about anything, and he wasn't shown to exaggarate or be dramatic.

Also, when the time police and the Time Baby appeared, they treated Weirdmaggedon as a very serious threat and none of them were joking or being dramatic, not even Blendin.

Time Baby clearly showed that Weirdmaggedon, which was caused by Bill, would destroy all the universe, and in the final episode, Bill clearly showed that when he said liberation, he meant destruction, and he was planning to do this to the gf universe as well

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

ByAsura said:
Quoting long posts a short space away from the original is unnecessary and clogs threads, particularly quotes within quotes. At the very least, get rid of the section where I speak.

Fair Point. Will do it

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Thank you.

TheArsenal1212 · Nov 5, 2019

Bill liberated his own dimension. His own dimension was implied to be destroyed which is why he went to the nightmare realm. He was attempting to do the same to our dimension after putting it through chaos first.

Low 2C Bill is fine

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

TheArsenal1212 said:
Bill liberated his own dimension. His own dimension was implied to be destroyed which is why he went to the nightmare realm. He was attempting to do the same to our dimension after putting it through chaos first.

Low 2C Bill is fine

Exactly. There are also a lot of evidences in Journal 3 that support Bill being Universal+

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

The Nightmare Realm was confirmed by Ford to be just the size of a universe, so it's destruction would be 2-C. Also, I don't think we can compare the infinite size of GF to just one universe?

Time Baby does not have access to the timeline as if he did, he would most likely foresee his own death, no? As for him being a baby, I'm mostly referring to his personality and his intelligence ( he struggles to pronounce spaghetti, as an example). Him being a god to the future people could be for a variety of reasons; the most likely one is due to sheer power and tyranny (when Dipper and Mabel travel to the future, we see a scene of Time Baby ******* razing a city to the ground) as opposed to any crazy time hax or supposed 2-C power.

Time Baby never seen to bluff could potentially be a factor, but the rest of his personality traits would suggest that he could be dramatic. It also does not help that Time Baby was informed of the the threat Bill possessed by Blendin Blandon (not entirely, but he still got informed by him), and Blendin is definitely not the most credible source.

Also, the Universe exploding hologram is a DIRECT reference to the nightmare realm getting destroyed over time, as Ford stated that would eventually destroy itself and explode, which would take Bill with it.

Inverted_Tempest · Nov 5, 2019

I'm just going to say I disagree FRA. I'm a bit too busy atm to type out a wall of my personal problems with this.

And I'm just going to ask for anybody new to the thread later viewing this to not randomly shitpost. This hasn't been a big deal right now, but it's what spiraled the last thread into rejection. Memeing something you think isn't correct is obviously disrespectful and incredibly unmotivating for someone to want to reply on a thread.

So please do continue on with the discussion and don't focus too heavily on what I'm saying here at the moment, I just wanted to post a reminder to keep it respectful since these Bill threads seem to get out of hand rather quickly at times.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Ayewale said:
The Nightmare Realm was confirmed by Ford to be just the size of a universe, so it's destruction would be 2-C. Also, I don't think we can compare the infinite size of GF to just one universe?
Time Baby does not have access to the timeline as if he did, he would most likely foresee his own death, no? As for him being a baby, I'm mostly referring to his personality and his intelligence ( he struggles to pronounce spaghetti, as an example). Him being a god to the future people could be for a variety of reasons; the most likely one is due to sheer power and tyranny (when Dipper and Mabel travel to the future, we see a scene of Time Baby ******* razing a city to the ground) as opposed to any crazy time hax or supposed 2-C power.

Time Baby never seen to bluff could potentially be a factor, but the rest of his personality traits would suggest that he could be dramatic. It also does not help that Time Baby was informed of the the threat Bill possessed by Blendin Blandon (not entirely, but he still got informed by him), and Blendin is definitely not the most credible source.

Also, the Universe exploding hologram is a DIRECT reference to the nightmare realm getting destroyed over time, as Ford stated that would eventually destroy itself and explode, which would take Bill with it.

None of your points here are neither canon or confirmed

For the first point, The Nightmare Realm is was confirmed in Journal 3 (which is completely canon) to be an interdimensional space between the universes, and basically serves as the background for the gf multiverse, which is infinite in size, so the Nightmare realm is indeed a 2-A structure, so destroying it would be 2-A destruction. Also, Ford outright stated in the same journal that is "a void between universes without any physical laws and order littered with asteroids and has a "smell of burnt hair." Nothing Ford said suggest that the nightmare realm is a universe, or universal sized.

Blendin was consistently shown as the most incompetent time officer in the series, and was never really serious and always causing trouble. In Weirdmaggedon however, it's all gone, and he treats the event extremely seriously. Also, Time Baby is not dramatic in the way you mean, and the whole scene is treated very seriously.

Lastly, the exploding hologram wasn't at all connected to the nightmare realm in any way. The hologram showed space-time itself being destroyed and by the context of the scene, Time Baby meant that this sudde destruction would happen to the main gf universe if the rift would not be closed

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

Inverted Tempest said:
I'm just going to say I disagree FRA. I'm a bit too busy atm to type out a wall of my personal problems with this.
And I'm just going to ask for anybody new to the thread later viewing this to not randomly shitpost. This hasn't been a big deal right now, but it's what spiraled the last thread into rejection. Memeing something you think isn't correct is obviously disrespectful and incredibly unmotivating for someone to want to reply on a thread.

So please do continue on with the discussion and don't focus too heavily on what I'm saying here at the moment, I just wanted to post a reminder to keep it respectful since these Bill threads seem to get out of hand rather quickly at times.

I'm sorry if the meme I posted earliet offended you, but it was just to emphasize my point how I'm sick of Bill's treatment here (the double standards regarding his hax effects (since for some reason he can't affect 4d chatacters, and they're just 3d spatially with 4d power) and people constantly trying to downgrade him without any proofs (I mean 5-B??? You've got to be kidding me))

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

I pretty much proved already that the rift wasn't even created by Bill. It was made by Ford's portal.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

ByAsura said:
I pretty much proved already that the rift wasn't even created by Bill. It was made by Ford's portal.

I know that. However, as stated here before, the rift dissappearded and reversed all the damage Bill did once Weirdmaggedon ended. If Bill was completely unrelated to it, then defeating Bill wouldn't close the rift, let alone reverse all of Bill's damage. That means that Bill's power is connected to the rift, and thus scales from it.

Regardless of this, Bill also broke the physics of our universe by his mere existance and survived the destruction of his own universe (Low 2-C destruction,)

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Bill was weakened in Ford's mindspace before he was even destroyed. It would have happened before if Bill's power was somehow sustaining it. Also, Bill's entrance into the universe shattered rift, meaning his world was spilling into Gravity Falls, that's why his power is connected to it.

Ford: The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger.

Ford also confirms that simply pushing him through the rift would stop everything

Dipper. Listen to me. We can find your sister soon, but first we have to stop Bill. If we can blast him back through the rift he came out of, we just might be able to stop him before his weirdness spreads across the entire globe.

Ayewale · Nov 5, 2019

Gilad Hyperstar said:
Ayewale said:

The Nightmare Realm was confirmed by Ford to be just the size of a universe, so it's destruction would be 2-C. Also, I don't think we can compare the infinite size of GF to just one universe?
Time Baby does not have access to the timeline as if he did, he would most likely foresee his own death, no? As for him being a baby, I'm mostly referring to his personality and his intelligence ( he struggles to pronounce spaghetti, as an example). Him being a god to the future people could be for a variety of reasons; the most likely one is due to sheer power and tyranny (when Dipper and Mabel travel to the future, we see a scene of Time Baby ******* razing a city to the ground) as opposed to any crazy time hax or supposed 2-C power.

Time Baby never seen to bluff could potentially be a factor, but the rest of his personality traits would suggest that he could be dramatic. It also does not help that Time Baby was informed of the the threat Bill possessed by Blendin Blandon (not entirely, but he still got informed by him), and Blendin is definitely not the most credible source.

Also, the Universe exploding hologram is a DIRECT reference to the nightmare realm getting destroyed over time, as Ford stated that would eventually destroy itself and explode, which would take Bill with it.

Click to expand...

None of your points here are neither canon or confirmed
For the first point, The Nightmare Realm is was confirmed in Journal 3 (which is completely canon) to be an interdimensional space between the universes, and basically serves as the background for the gf multiverse, which is infinite in size, so the Nightmare realm is indeed a 2-A structure, so destroying it would be 2-A destruction. Also, Ford outright stated in the same journal that is "a void between universes without any physical laws and order littered with asteroids and has a "smell of burnt hair." Nothing Ford said suggest that the nightmare realm is a universe, or universal sized.

Blendin was consistently shown as the most incompetent time officer in the series, and was never really serious and always causing trouble. In Weirdmaggedon however, it's all gone, and he treats the event extremely seriously. Also, Time Baby is not dramatic in the way you mean, and the whole scene is treated very seriously.

Lastly, the exploding hologram wasn't at all connected to the nightmare realm in any way. The hologram showed space-time itself being destroyed and by the context of the scene, Time Baby meant that this sudde destruction would happen to the main gf universe if the rift would not be closed

Sorry for the huge quote wall, but context is important.

For the first point, from my memory (I'm in school and can't check Journal 3 rn), he explicitly described it as a 'universe', and he never stated it was the background for the infinit gf universe. All I remember is 'gutter space between universes', which could be referring to the space between the main gf reality and Bill's. Again, not 100% sure so you might have me there.

Blendin never being serious adds to my point that he wasn't a reliable source though-and in Weirdmaggedon, none of it is gone? We only see that Blendin takes Weirdmaggedon as seriously as anyone else, but it was never implied that Blendin' doesn't take things seriously. As for the hyperbolic Time Baby thing, I'll concede there, he might not be as overblown as I suggest.

Also, the hologram has no timescale. And if you want to say 'Time Baby sees it as instant', Time Baby could be millions or trillions of years old, I'd argue his definition of 'instant' is far from our view of instant. He could also just be showing the ultimate result of his existence. It could also be that the Main GF reality is more prone to the instability of his existence than the Nightmare realm (gutter space is not the same as an actual reality. The name itself indicates it's not normal, even without bill's existence.) You also didn't really disprove my reasonings for why the hologram relates to the nightmare realm, you only gave reasons as to why it doesn't-not really an important point, but just an observation.

Gilad_Hyperstar · Nov 5, 2019

So you are agreeing with me. As that just proves even more that the rift is directly connected to Bill

ByAsura · Nov 5, 2019

Again, if you're going to quote a huge wall of text, at least take out the quote within the quote (the part written by yourself in this case). That part isn't important.

Bill Cipher and his 2-C bullshit.

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