Bill Cipher and his 2-C bullshit.

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

5-B, possibly 2-C(via sustaining the rift) sounds good, though we need to get rid of all the current justifications for his current 2-C rating since they all suck. If he did sustain the rift, which we don't relaly know, you could possibly argue 2-C.

Also, in the context it does not mean 'space-time', it, still has a lot of interpretations. Time Baby came to stop Bill for two reasons: To stop him from destroying other universes, and to stop his own universe from exploding. Remember: Time Baby is the future of the main GF reality, so if Bill blows up the universe then, they'll be no universe in the future. I know this brings up some obvious time paradoxes but this is how GF time-travelling works. Besides, time travelling in general media completely ***** on the paradoxes most of the time.

It should also be noted that Time Baby has no idea how truly powerful Bill is for a couple of reasons. Firstly, if he knew that Bill had enough power to instantly obliterate him and the timesquad, he probably wouldn't have come charging at Bill like that, especially not with his fodder squad. Secondly, it's reasonable to assume he did not know of Bill's existence before (else he'd have done something sooner), and that he would have only learnt of the threat that Bill possessed from a source. That source being Blendin Blandon, the most unreliable time officer in 20712, but the only one who had seen Bill.

(Also, Off-topic, but shouldn't Time Baby be 5-B since he scares Bill's friends, who juggle around planets?)

Destroying the universe across all of time is Low 2-C, and Time Baby came to stop the destruction of the main gf universe. Also, since the tiering system got updated recently, according to the new tiering system, any sort of space-time manipulation on a large scale is now Low 2-C. Also, it was confirmed by Alex Hirsch that Time Baby and Bill Cipher know each other, and they dislike each other.

Also, Time Baby can see everything that happened in time, since in episode 9, we see him punishing Blendin and forces him to clean all the mess made by Dipper and Mabel's time travel. That means that he knows that those events happened at saw them. In a similar way, he probably saw that the rift has opened, and came to the past in order to stop Bill.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I stated many times before that Bill's power and the rift does corralate to each other, and there multiple statements and showing during Weirdmaggedon that proves it (I'm not gonna explain here the reasons since I stated them many times, execpt for one and that's when the 10 zodiac characters nearly complete the zodiac, it was stated and shown that the effects of Weirdmaggedon would be reverse if they'll defeat Bill with it, which later we see the damage being reversed after Bill was erased)

 

[ByAsura]

Again, his life or existence could also be part of it, there's actually evidence for and against both points of view. We don't actually know, hence why I suggested "possibly" Universe level+ instead of downright just saying "no, his power has nothing to do with it."

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Again, his life or existence could also be part of it. We don't actually know, hence why I suggested "possibly" Universe level+ instead of downright just saying "no, his power has nothing to do with it."

In my opinion, he should be Universe Level+ since he manipulated space and time (stopped time upon first appearing in the first weirdmaggedon episode, and shown to control space and matter in the final episode) and according to the new tiering system, that would be Low 2-C

 

[ByAsura]

I suppose that makes sense. I'll see what the others have to say about this.

In this same comment, Bill said time is dead and existence has no meaning, so I'm fairly sure it is limited to Gravity falls, as that was the only place being affected by Weirdmageddon due to the barrier around it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He has implications for a lot of tiers, and anti-feats for just about everything too...

I feel that this is like trying to tier Bugs Bunny (I know we do it, but I still think it's stupid).


I ain't putting more effort into him is my point.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

He has implications for a lot of tiers, and anti-feats for just about everything too...

I feel that this is like trying to tier Bugs Bunny (I know we do it, but I still think it's stupid).


I ain't putting more effort into him is my point.

That's fair hahaha you did loads of work on him

An 'Unknown' tiering also has legitimate reasoning as well

 

[Ayewale]

Alright so I don't really understand the rating for Low 2-C (the wording is pretty scientific), but from what I gather from it Low 2-C is basically when a character destroys spacetime, which is greater than a character destroying an infinite amount of 3-D space.

Anyways, if you believe Bill Cipher was actually going to destroy space-time, then lowest of the low 2-C (joke). If you believe opposite, most likely an easy 5-B. As Arsenal has said, he has a lot of feats ad anti-feats.

I think the best we can do is 'at least 5-B, possibly Low 2-C'. Would that work? It does not necessarily put any of the two options over the other in terms of their likelihood.

 

[ByAsura]

In this case, you can also significantly affect space-time on a universal scale.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Any effects on space and time would be Low 2-C now, and the only reason why his effects weren't universal are because of an extremely powerful weirdness magnet.

 

[Ayewale]

I agree he was limited by the weirdness magnet, but I'd argue that he does not affect the entire universe automatically.

Actually, adding to the 5-B point, he says that 'This thing is going wolrdwide!', referring to Weirdmaggedon. He could've easily said galaxy or universe, but no; he was referring explicitly to Earth at this point.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree he was limited by the weirdness magnet, but I'd argue that he does not affect the entire universe automatically.

Actually, adding to the 5-B point, he says that 'This thing is going wolrdwide!', referring to Weirdmaggedon. He could've easily said galaxy or universe, but no; he was referring explicitly to Earth at this point.

That's not adding anyting. This is purely sematics and regardless of what he said, he literally showed Ford what he would actually do if the barrier will dissapear. He showed the henchmaniacs tossing planets, and showed the entire galaxy being under Ford's control. This means that the effects aren't limited to Earth only, and that, combining with Bill's saying that he would liberate the universe, as well as Time Baby's claim that Weirdmaggedon would destroy the fabric of existance, meaning that Bill has universal range

 

[Ayewale]

Alright, first of all, Bill Cipher's threats are only to flatter people. Most likely, they would not be true. So no, Bill's word is near worthless. Him saying he would liberate the universe-again, not necessarily referring to destruction if you want to chalk it up as AP, and once again Bill's word is worthless.

The henchmaniacs tossing planets is why they're 5-B in the first place, so thank you for adding to my point.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Honestly I'm not too sure that's even good reasoning for 5-B, since it wasn't something they actually did.

 

[Ayewale]

That might be true. However, it's suggested that that would be how strong they are if they didn't have the Weirdness Magnet holding them down. Also, if they get reduced from 5-B to unknown, then that means Bill Cipher would be at just 'Unknown, Possibly 2-C'.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Alright, first of all, Bill Cipher's threats are only to flatter people. Most likely, they would not be true. So no, Bill's word is near worthless. Him saying he would liberate the universe-again, not necessarily referring to destruction if you want to chalk it up as AP, and once again Bill's word is worthless.

Not in this situation, as it was confirmed many times that Bill originated from a 2D world and destroyed it. What he said to Ford about his promise was flattery, but he was not joking or lying about the whole "universe liberation stuff", since we already saw him do it to his own home world.

Even The Axolotl, the superme being of the gf multiverse, confirmed that Bill destroyed his own world and has no way of returning.

Combine that with Time Baby's statement, who said that the rift would destroy the universe, and Bill Cipher affecting both time and space, all comes for Bill to be Low 2-C

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I'm just saying I don't think what is essentially a hypothetical feat should be used to Tier them. They could scale to the Shacktron though, since they fought with it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Not in this situation, as it was confirmed many times that Bill originated from a 2D world and destroyed it. What he said to Ford about his promise was flattery, but he was not joking or lying about the whole "universe liberation stuff", since we already saw him do it to his own home world.

Even The Axolotl, the superme being of the gf multiverse, confirmed that Bill destroyed his own world and has no way of returning.

Combine that with Time Baby's statement, who said that the rift would destroy the universe, and Bill Cipher affecting both time and space, all comes for Bill to be Low 2-C

How many times do I need to keep explaining this???

 

[Ayewale]

He could perfectly be at least be over-dramatic about the universe-liberation stuff. If not, then it's most likely (and I'm getting tired of saying this) referring to how he destabilizes universes/galaxies/planets (we haven't agreed yet) by bending the laws of the universe.

As for the Axolotl, first off we have no idea how large his dimension or home is. Second off, I couldn't find anything about Bill destroying it. Third off, on the very reliable GF wiki, they had this to say about the Axolotl.

'Bill Cipher affecting both time and space' is never stated. And Time Baby never states directly that the rift, of which Bill Cipher even being related to is dodgy, would outright destroy the universe. All his 2-C evidence is lacking.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He could perfectly be at least be over-dramatic about the universe-liberation stuff. If not, then it's most likely (and I'm getting tired of saying this) referring to how he destabilizes universes/galaxies/planets (we haven't agreed yet) by bending the laws of the universe.
As for the Axolotl, first off we have no idea how large his dimension or home is. Second off, I couldn't find anything about Bill destroying it. Third off, on the very reliable GF wiki, they had this to say about the Axolotl.

'Bill Cipher affecting both time and space' is never stated. And Time Baby never states directly that the rift, of which Bill Cipher even being related to is dodgy, would outright destroy the universe. All his 2-C evidence is lacking.

1. Why would he be over-dramatic about it? Especially when this is supported by what Time Baby said and explicably show to destroy the fabric of existance = Low 2-C

2. I NEVER stated that Bill destroyed the Axolotl realm, when I said "his", I meant Bill destroying his own home world. The Axolotl only said that Bill destroyed the latter's home world.

3. Bill literally stated "I control space, matter, and now with that Dumb Baby out of the way, Time Itself!" and when he said that, he explicably showed his ability to control space and matter, and he showed his ability to control time when he said "Time is dead and meaning has no meaning" and when he said that, we literally see the clocks, along with a bird flying nearby stops completely. Combine the two together and you get Low 2-C

 

[ByAsura]

Destroying a 2-D universe is an 11-A feat. Given the context, it doesn't seem like Bill was exaggerating, more like he was telling an honest story to Ford.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Destroying a 2-D universe is an 11-A feat.

I never stated that it's not. I merely said that since Bill destroyed his own world, he wants to destroy the main gf universe too. Stop twisting my words and making a straw man argument

 

[CinnabarManx421]

3. Bill literally stated "I control space, matter, and now with that Dumb Baby out of the way, Time Itself!" and when he said that, he explicably showed his ability to control space and matter, and he showed his ability to control time when he said "Time is dead and meaning has no meaning" and when he said that, we literally see the clocks, along with a bird flying nearby stops completely. Combine the two together and you get Low 2-C

Just saying, I don't think that simply having the ability to control Space and Time is Low 2-C. It depends on the application. Plus, Bill's showing of control over space was just removing gravity, and his Time Stop is... honestly not that good. It doesn't ever stop anything other than the clock and birds.

 

[Ayewale]

Just saying, I don't think that simply having the ability to control Space and Time is Low 2-C. It depends on the application. Plus, Bill's showing of control over space was just removing gravity, and his Time Stop is... honestly not that good. It doesn't ever stop anything other than the clock and birds.

This is very notable.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

According to the new tiering system, affecting space and time in a not insignificant scale counts as Low 2-C now. Maybe his time stop is not that good, but it still worked and that still counts. And his space controlling was also when he relocated all matter in the tip of the fearamid. Also, he stated that his time control improved after killing time baby

 

[JooCipher]

>Bill's time stop isn't that good

Bill literally says his time stop has infinite duration

 

[CinnabarManx421]

...Ok? It still never stops anybody from moving. It having "Infinite Duration" doesn't necessarily make it good either. If a character's Time Stop was infinite but only affected a 1 meter area around them is that still good? Not really.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We don't know how good are his effects, but manipulating space and time to a noticable scale (such as a town). Still counts as Low 2-C in the new system

 

[Giygas3]

"but manipulating space and time to a noticable scale (such as a town). Still counts as Low 2-C in the new system."

Maybe this was discussed in the actual threads, but reading the revamped Tiering System page, I didn't read anywhere that manipulating Space-Time in such a small manner (Such as a town) would count as a Low 2-C feat. Where are you getting this from?

 

[Ayewale]

A noticeable scale is definitely not a town. Considering Low 2-C is above an infinite amount of 3D Space, the minimum should be like, a universe (which is a lowball). As for his time Stop, it seemed temporary and barely affected anything and we're not even sure of the range. As well, I don't think manipulating space and time through hax is counted as anything relating to AP that would make him 2-C.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

A noticeable scale is definitely not a town. Considering Low 2-C is above an infinite amount of 3D Space, the minimum should be like, a universe (which is a lowball). As for his time Stop, it seemed temporary and barely affected anything and we're not even sure of the range. As well, I don't think manipulating space and time through hax is counted as anything relating to AP that would make him 2-C.

And another question, does affecting space and time in a finite scale (and/or less than universal) is Low 2-C or High 3-A? Since in the description of High 3-A it only included the 3 spatial dimensions

Low 2-C. "Limited 4-D" essentially got moved from High 3-A to Low 2-C.

That's what they told me about how they treated affecting space and time on a limited scale (which Bill did)

 

[ByAsura]

I never stated that it's not. I merely said that since Bill destroyed his own world, he wants to destroy the main gf universe too. Stop twisting my words and making a straw man argument

Firstly, I did not straw man your point or twist your words. Saying something like "destroying a 2-D world isn't Low 2-C" would be. Secondly, I just misinterpreted what you were saying because it was early in the morning when I wrote that.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If so, then I apologize. I did not meant to be rude and I was tired as well, so I though you meant to say that I was claiming it's a Low 2-C feat, which it's not

 

[ByAsura]

No problem.

 

[Ayewale]

Sorry for the slight necro-bump, but I thought that this was still important.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I'd like to point out that since the sequel to gravity falls is coming January 10th and it's been basically confirmed to be canon we should hold all reiviosns until it does come out

 

[Eficiente]

This is a huge mess, make another thread and write what you feel like matters there.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

But


For now I support Tier 2 Bill staying

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I'd like to point out that since the sequel to gravity falls is coming January 10th and it's been basically confirmed to be canon we should hold all reiviosns until it does come out

Is that actually happening?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Save that for another thread... But yes.

Or at least I'm 90% sure going by the comic