Bill Cipher and his 2-C bullshit.

[Ayewale]

Fair. My bad!

 

[ByAsura]

Thank you.

 

[Ayewale]

Also, as for the destruction of his universe, there's a couple of things.

-If it was destroyed, it's a 2D universe, which miiiight make destroying it not quite a feat. (do remember that in the Journals, Ford met a 2-D universe and was capable of destroying it) Not sure on the science, but it could be a possibly. However a universal feat is said to be the destruction of it's space-time, which might work differently for a 2-D verse.

-His universe wasn't destroyed, it's said that he 'plunged it into chaos', which is very different from 'nuked it's space-time contiinum'.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Like tempest said, I disagree with reasons above, but I am not feeling like writing walls of text

 

[Ayewale]

Which reasons above exactly?

 

[Ayewale]

Changing time (like resetting or remaking it) with your own power is a Low 2-C feat, not everything requires destroying whole timelines, manipulating it on a cosmic scale can easily fit into this category. Also, the rip is the one Dipper failed to seal in Dipper and Mabel vs. the Future, not something created by Bill's presence in the universe. In fact, this was created by the activation of Ford Pines' portal, not even Bill (who just used it to make Weirdmageddon), I'm not even sure why it's on the page.

• Ford: (Sighs) Okay, Stanley, here's the deal. You can stay here the rest of the summer to watch the kids. I'll stay down in the basement and try to contain any remaining damage. But when the summer's over, you give me my house back, you give me my name back, and this Mystery Shack junk is over forever. You got it?

• Bill: Oh, quit playing dumb, IQ! You knew I'd be back! You think shutting down that portal could stop what I have planned? I've been making deals, chatting with old friends, preparing for the big day! You can't keep that rift safe forever. (Snaps his fingers and a copy of the dimensional rift appears in his hand) You'll slip up, and when you do...! (Throws the rift onto the ground, where it creates a massive portal in the shape of an upside-down triangle, burning the wheat field around Ford)

• Ford: Yes, it's much faster than shaving. Now, listen, Dipper. I have a very important mission, and you are the only one who can help me. (Pulls out the rift) Remember the rift in dimensional space-time I showed you? It's cracking. (Points at crack) This is what Bill has been waiting for. If it breaks, it will cause reality as we know it to completely unravel. A hypothetical and catastrophic event I call Weirdmageddon.

"First off, Time Baby was not at all saying that BC would literally destroy the universe, nor did he imply AP; perhaps, just perhaps he was referring to that his mere existence in a dimension causes it to destabilize itself over time due to chaos, as shown by the Nightmare Realm."

• Time Baby: (Projects a hologram of the universe) If your rip in this dimension continues, it could destroy the very fabric of existence! (The universe in the hologram explodes) Surrender now, or face my tantrum!

Time Baby is somewhat like a baby, yes, but that's literally no reason for him to be hyperbolic or lying, especially since he's portrayed as taking Bill's threat very seriously. Anyway, the rift wasn't even made by Bill.

This is the only straight reason that he's provided. The rest of his posts either try to prove this point or debunk mine. (Which I'm obviously not saying is bad, in fact he's been doing a pretty good job.) I think even if this thread is denied, at the very least the justifications for his 2-C rating all need to be thrown out and replaced with stronger ones.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I honestly don't know what's so wrong with TB's statement. Time Baby and the Time Police literally govern time, and I don't think they are overselling it when Bill would destroy the very fabric of existence. Plus, Time Baby mentions the destruction of the fabric of existence. This Blatantly shows that Bill would destroy the fabric. Fabric of Existence is Low 2-C at a minimum

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sorry for the huge quote wall, but context is important.

For the first point, from my memory (I'm in school and can't check Journal 3 rn), he explicitly described it as a 'universe', and he never stated it was the background for the infinit gf universe. All I remember is 'gutter space between universes', which could be referring to the space between the main gf reality and Bill's. Again, not 100% sure so you might have me there.

Blendin never being serious adds to my point that he wasn't a reliable source though-and in Weirdmaggedon, none of it is gone? We only see that Blendin takes Weirdmaggedon as seriously as anyone else, but it was never implied that Blendin' doesn't take things seriously. As for the hyperbolic Time Baby thing, I'll concede there, he might not be as overblown as I suggest.

Also, the hologram has no timescale. And if you want to say 'Time Baby sees it as instant', Time Baby could be millions or trillions of years old, I'd argue his definition of 'instant' is far from our view of instant. He could also just be showing the ultimate result of his existence. It could also be that the Main GF reality is more prone to the instability of his existence than the Nightmare realm (gutter space is not the same as an actual reality. The name itself indicates it's not normal, even without bill's existence.) You also didn't really disprove my reasonings for why the hologram relates to the nightmare realm, you only gave reasons as to why it doesn't-not really an important point, but just an observation.

I have Journal 3 in my possesion, and in the part where Ford get sucked into the nightmare realm, and describes it like I said. Also, I gave a link to its page in the gf wiki for you to see. Ford clearly said it was a physic-less void which occcupies the space between universes (in plural, which means all of them, and they're infinite in number). Also, in the "Lost Legends" book, in the chapter of "Don't Dimension it", Mabel get sucked into the nightmare realm, and later, Ford and Stan navigates through it to get to a different universe. Later, all the other Mabel versions travels in the space ship through the nightmare realm in order to return to their home universes.

All of these are proofs of The Nightmare realm being a 2-A structure, as it's the void between the infinite universes in the multiverse.

Again, the hologram has nothing to do with the nightmare realm. You need to also look at the context of the scene. In the scene, Time Baby clearly says that the rift would destroy the fabric of existance and that's Low 2-C.

The Time Baby also demands Bill to reverse his damage at once, meaning that if Time Baby meant the nightmare realm, then he would staright up be 2-A. Which he's not currently. The other option is that Bill would reverse the effects of Weirdmaggedon in the main universe, which would destroy all of it and is directly caused by Bill. Those are Low 2-C

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Also, as for the destruction of his universe, there's a couple of things.

-If it was destroyed, it's a 2D universe, which miiiight make destroying it not quite a feat. (do remember that in the Journals, Ford met a 2-D universe and was capable of destroying it) Not sure on the science, but it could be a possibly. However a universal feat is said to be the destruction of it's space-time, which might work differently for a 2-D verse.

-His universe wasn't destroyed, it's said that he 'plunged it into chaos', which is very different from 'nuked it's space-time contiinum'.

Didn't he 'burn' his dimension? This would imply destruction

 

[JooCipher]

what's this

Ford flat out stated that Bill can destroy reality which is Low 2-C

iirc Bill was 2-C via adding universes to Nightmare Realm

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Didn't he 'burn' his dimension? This would imply destruction

He did. Time Baby also outright evisioned his universal+ destruction with an explosion

 

[Ayewale]

what's this
Ford flat out stated that Bill can destroy reality which is Low 2-C

iirc Bill was 2-C via adding universes to Nightmare Realm

We're not sure exactly what he did, but it's not stated that he destroyed it via AP. As for Time Baby's envisioning of universal destruction, that would be a good point, but I'm still on the fence about it, especially since Time Baby is not near universal power himself and is still most likely referring to the effects of Bill's existence on the world.

Bill NEVER added universes to the Nightmare Realm.

Finally, Ford never flat-out said that. What Ford did say is being discussed above. It may also help to know that he was also referring to RW that Bill causes.

 

[JooCipher]

Ford says it in the jornals

 

[Ayewale]

Which page/what chapter specifically? I have a copy of Journal 3 with me.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

especially since Time Baby is not near universal power himself and is still most likely referring to the effects of Bill's existence on the world.

"Time Baby not being universal". I know it's for a different thread, but since time baby made a time wish that granted Soos an infinitely geowing pizza, he must posses infinite 3D energy, which means he's High 3-A. (Off topic though) As for what you said about Bill's effects. That's just more of a proof about him being Low 2-C since he does all this damage just by existing.

 

[ByAsura]

Creating an infinitely growing pizza is not a High 3-A feat. Firstly, if it's infinitely growing it'll never be infinite in size. Secondly, Time Baby doesn't appear to be constantly sustaining its growth with his power, he just conjured it. Lastly, that's assuming it's not some form of hax or ability.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yes, but doesn't creating something with this feature require infinite energy even if it only has finite size each time, since the pizza just keeps regrowing so the extra energy must come from somewhere right? If so, then it can only cime from the Time Baby. Also, the pizza grows automatically in Soos's mouth so idk

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Anyway it's derailing so maybe we should discuss this in another thread

 

[Ayewale]

Couldn't the pizza just have Regen? It's not infinite in size and Time Baby's not sustaining it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Can non living creatures have regen? If they can, then maybe that's the case with the pizza, but I'm not sure that they have.

Also, since the pizza is eaten each time, that's more like creating material out of nothing rather than regen

 

[ByAsura]

Think about it, if a random fictional character conjures a 1 kg ball, are they suddenly City level because that's the energy to mass equivalent? No, it's just hax, and Time Baby isn't even portrayed as constantly sustaining it with energy. It's like Ayewale said, infinitely growing is probably just a property of the pizza.

Anyway, it's not remotely as Attack Potency or anything like that. Literally every staff member on the wiki will disagree with you on this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Seems legit. So let's not derail further.

 

[Eficiente]

What false feats are left to be rejected and why?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What false feats are left to be rejected and why?

I know it's for the blog's writer but what do you mean by that?

 

[ByAsura]

@Gilad You haven't adressed this, by the way.

@Eficiente Purportedly, Bill destroyed the Nightmare Realm, or something, according to Journal 3.

I'm going to bed now.

Edit: Just before I go to bed. He also burned his old 2-D dimension (why is this even justification?)

• You think those chains are tight? (Eye shows a planet on a two-dimensional plane, which burns) Imagine living in the second dimension, flat minds in a flat world with flat dreams. I liberated my dimension, Stanford, and I'm here to liberate yours. There's just one hitch. (Eye projects a hologram of him pushing against the dome around Gravity Falls) As it turns out, my weirdness can't escape the magical confines of this town. There's something keeping me in.

 

[Eficiente]

Never heard of it and the place doesn't seen destroyed, +it's not in his profile and this thread doesn't have that in its OP, can I hope we may all move on about it?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The rift only closed and cause the effects of Weirdmaggedon to be reversed only after Bill was erased with the memory gun. Also, The statement of "if we push him through the rift it might be able to stop him" means that the rift is connected to Bill's power after all, since the rift seems to be reliant on Bill

 

[Eficiente]

Edit: Just before I go to bed. He also burned his old 2-D dimension (why is this even justification?)

Because it's not, that's why it's not on his profile. Destroying a 2-Dimensional universe is a 11-A feat. I really, really hope not having to talk about this again at least within this thread.

 

[Ayewale]

Bill didn't destroy the nightmare realm in Journal 3 (at least the standard edition). I could not find any reference to that in the book. I think we can move on from that now.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Bill didn't destroy the nightmare realm in Journal 3 (at least the standard edition). I could not find any reference to that in the book. I think we can move on from that now.

He did not. However, it was clearly stated that Bill's rift would destroy the space time of the entire universe

 

[Ayewale]

First off, can I just say that ByAsura was right about a 2-A Nightmare Realm. I'll concede on that point.

However, it was never stated that the rift that Ford created world destroy the 'space-time' of the entire universe. At least, it was never specified that space-time itself would be gone.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

However, it was never stated that the rift that Ford created world destroy the 'space-time' of the entire universe. At least, it was never specified that space-time itself would be gone.

First of All, Ford did not create the rift. He only made the portal and that made the rift. However, there are multiple evidences that the rift is connected to Bill's power (Ford's statement that if they'll blast Bill through the rift it would stop Weirdmaggedon, Time Baby demanding Bill to close the rift and reverse his damage, the rift only dissapears after Bill is erased) Secondly, "destroying the very fabric of existance" means space time destruction on a universal scale, and that's Low 2-C

 

[Eficiente]

However, it was never stated that the rift that Ford created world destroy the 'space-time' of the entire universe. At least, it was never specified that space-time itself would be gone.

That was never said to be the rift Ford created, it was Bill's rip in the dimension, which could mean anything if not all of the mess he was going. Destroy the very fabric of existence is Low 2-C, you need to either deal with it or make a thread unrelated to Gravity Falls about how you think that's not the case and we should all follow that, those are your only options.

 

[Ayewale]

'Ford didn't create the rift, he made the portal that made the rift'. Yeah, so he created the rift indirectly. Point is, billy boy didn't create the rift. You also mention that the rift is connected to Bill Power, but that's completely false for several reasons. For one thing, if Ford had 'borrowed' any energy from Bill Cipher he would've mentioned it in the journal, but the only thing coming close to that is Bill doing Ford's calculations for him. (Calculations that do not strike Fiddleford McGucket as odd, implying Bill didn't make any crazy changes to Ford's own intelligence and was simply borrowing his body.)

Time Baby demanding Bill close the rift is so that Bill doesn't, y'know, come back? It's to stop any other universe travelling psychos like Cosmic Arthur Fleck and Saitama from crashing into the Gravity Falls.

Ford's statement about that is true, but it refers to the fact that blasting Bill through the rift means he's not in our universe, meaning most of the effects of WMG are canceled out since the majority of it is passive.The rift disappearing after Bill is erased does not imply that the two are correlated, and plus there is evidence suggesting that Bill isn't even fully dead.

Destroying the very fabric of existence is a big statement that can mean a lot of things, and space-time destruction on a universal scale is a blatant mistranslation of that statement. What would make more sense is the fact that he would rid the universe of all of it's laws and physics, causing it to go into a Nightmare-Realm-ish state.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Cosmic Arthur Fleck, oh god. Joker 2, Emperor Joker

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

'Ford didn't create the rift, he made the portal that made the rift'. Yeah, so he created the rift indirectly. Point is, billy boy didn't create the rift. You also mention that the rift is connected to Bill Power, but that's completely false for several reasons. For one thing, if Ford had 'borrowed' any energy from Bill Cipher he would've mentioned it in the journal, but the only thing coming close to that is Bill doing Ford's calculations for him. (Calculations that do not strike Fiddleford McGucket as odd, implying Bill didn't make any crazy changes to Ford's own intelligence and was simply borrowing his body.)

Time Baby demanding Bill close the rift is so that Bill doesn't, y'know, come back? It's to stop any other universe travelling psychos like Cosmic Arthur Fleck and Saitama from crashing into the Gravity Falls.

Ford's statement about that is true, but it refers to the fact that blasting Bill through the rift means he's not in our universe, meaning most of the effects of WMG are canceled out since the majority of it is passive.The rift disappearing after Bill is erased does not imply that the two are correlated, and plus there is evidence suggesting that Bill isn't even fully dead.

Destroying the very fabric of existence is a big statement that can mean a lot of things, and space-time destruction on a universal scale is a blatant mistranslation of that statement. What would make more sense is the fact that he would rid the universe of all of it's laws and physics, causing it to go into a Nightmare-Realm-ish state.

1. Bill did not create the rift either, maybe, but that still doesn't mean that it's not connected to Bill

2. Regardless of the reasons, if Bill can close the rift, then he also have power over it. Even if the damage reversing stuff is passive, that's just a part of the rift's powers, which Bill can control

3. The rift dissapearing after Bill is not correlated by itself, but since there are other evidences of the rift being connected to Bill, this reason also fits with the rest.

4. There is no other way to interprate the term "destroying the fabric of existance". In the context it means space time, and since the Time Baby and time police came from the future, the destruction must affect all of time as well. Also, Time Baby clearly showed what would happen if the rift would not be closed, and he showed a hologram of the entire universe being destroyed via an explosion. All of that = Low 2-C

 

[ByAsura]

That doesn't even prove his power sustains the rift, it's entirely possible that his life or existence in the universe sustains it, as his dimension was coming through it.

• Ford: The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger.

In fact, it actually makes more sense for it to be his life, since he was weakened while in Ford's mind, and the rift only disappeared after Bill died when he was erased by the memory gun.

• Ford: Bill's only weak in the mind space. If I didn't have this darn plate in my head we could just erase him with the memory gun when he steps inside my mind.

I suggest a compromise. (Insert what ever rating here), possibly Universe level+. It honestly makes sense because we don't know that he's even sustaining the rift.

Because it's not, that's why it's not on his profile. Destroying a 2-Dimensional universe is a 11-A feat. I really, really hope not having to talk about this again at least within this thread.

I know it's not on his profile, I mean why are people bringing it up in this thread. It was a rhetorical question.

 

[Ayewale]

5-B, possibly 2-C(via sustaining the rift) sounds good, though we need to get rid of all the current justifications for his current 2-C rating since they all suck. If he did sustain the rift, which we don't relaly know, you could possibly argue 2-C.

Also, in the context it does not mean 'space-time', it, still has a lot of interpretations. Time Baby came to stop Bill for two reasons: To stop him from destroying other universes, and to stop his own universe from exploding. Remember: Time Baby is the future of the main GF reality, so if Bill blows up the universe then, they'll be no universe in the future. I know this brings up some obvious time paradoxes but this is how GF time-travelling works. Besides, time travelling in general media completely ***** on the paradoxes most of the time.

It should also be noted that Time Baby has no idea how truly powerful Bill is for a couple of reasons. Firstly, if he knew that Bill had enough power to instantly obliterate him and the timesquad, he probably wouldn't have come charging at Bill like that, especially not with his fodder squad. Secondly, it's reasonable to assume he did not know of Bill's existence before (else he'd have done something sooner), and that he would have only learnt of the threat that Bill possessed from a source. That source being Blendin Blandon, the most unreliable time officer in 20712, but the only one who had seen Bill.

(Also, Off-topic, but shouldn't Time Baby be 5-B since he scares Bill's friends, who juggle around planets?)

 

[Ayewale]

Also. Bill Cipher's getting 3-A at best due to this.

 

[ByAsura]

Time Baby said it would tear apart the fabric of reality. This pretty much implies it's space-time, especially since it's an interdimensional rift in space and time. Also, Time Baby may not have known how powerful Bill is, but he certainly seems to know how powerful the rift is and that Cipher is attached to it in some way.