- 16,963
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Continued from this thread
WARNING: Putting this at the very beginning. DO NOT derail this thread with anything that has nothing to do with the topic in question please. The previous thread I made on this was massively derailed by different topics that had nothing to do with why I made my downgrade thread in the first place and made everything a confusing cluttered mess to sort through to have a proper discussion. So this thread is to continue and ONLY discuss the topic at hand. Anything that is considered off-topic I kindly ask to be dropped or removed from the replies if neccessary.
Now, im reposting my original points as to why I made my thread to begin with. Along with points from the previous thread that actually had something to do with the original topic.
Tl;dr of this threads purpose
So to make the long story short for anyone who hasn't been aware of whats been going on, a thread was made for Alien X and Celestialsapiens to be upgraded to 2-B because of Professor Paradox making statements about Celestialspaiens holding the strongest power he has ever seen, which would mean they would be above the power of his Chrono Navigator, which is 2-B. The upgrade went through and that is the current justification for 2-B Celestialsapiens and Alien X. You can find this on their pages. And as I argued for before, I am still against this upgrade being applied. At least in the way it currently is being applied.
Now, the previous thread had a lot of points being thrown around to be in-favor/against the upgrade, half of which came from me. But for this thread, im only going to reiterate one of those arguments as it addressees the most important piece of information on why the upgrade even went through in the first place. That, and for all intents and purposes, it was very much ignored while I was away.
My argument
So, in response to the whole "Celestialspaiens hold the greatest power in the universe, which makes them stronger than the Chrono Navigator and makes them 2-B" argument, here is a counter-argument that I addressed in the thread twice.
"Then that is what i'll repeat on this note first because that is the most important part of this argument. We don't have any actual concrete evidence that Paradox's statements about Celestialspaiens's "power" is even referring to Attack Potency or raw strength in the first place. Out of all those statements, we have 2 statements, one from Paradox and one from Serena herself, that bring a different perspective of context to this regarding "power".
Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.
Pay close attentio to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.
So before anything else is done, we need to take into consideration that "greatest power in the universe" may not even being referring to raw strength at all, but hax abilities, as 2 statements and what Celestialsapiens commonly do imply. The problem with the upgrade here is that it is taking these statements and automatically assuming the context of "greatest power" is talking about Attack Potency to scale Alien X above everything when no concrete evidence actually suggests this context is the case. If anything, only the opposite has been put into detail."
This is my argument that was ignored for the rest of the thread, all the way up to the upgrade being accepted, while I was away. And what I quoted speaks for itself. All of the statements made for Celestialsapiens holding the "greatest power" in the universe are vague statements with little to no context being applied to suggest what "greatest power" in this sense is actually talking about. All except for 2 statements, one made by Paradox and one made by Serena herself, that actually give more context about "power". And they are not talking about Attack Potency. They are strictly talking about hax abilities. Just to make sure that none of you miss what im talking about, lets go through all of the statements made in support for the Celestialsapeins tier.
Statements used to support 2-B Celestialsapiens
Already dealt with this. This statement is referring to Space-Time Manipulation. Not Attack Potency.
"Greatest power" here is vague and has no context surrounding it, unlike the previous statement which deals with space-time manipulation.
"Greatest power" here, again, is vague. There's no context on what "greatest power" is being referred to.
We have 6 statements in total here about Celestialsapiens. And out of the 6, half of them are referring to hax abilities instead of raw brute power, which is what Attack Potency is. And the other half? Have no context. Adding this with Celestialsapiens being commonly known for altering universes and having many abilities, none of these statements suggest for one moment that Celestialspaiens hold more raw strength than anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse.
"Greatest power still means power in general"
Now, this argument was brought up in the thread and I expect it to be repeated here in an attempt to counter my points. So im going to address it now.
For those of you who want to argue "holding the greatest power means straight up having the greatest power", as in the sense of being the strongest in general when it comes to raw power and everything else, that isn't how this works here. Why? Because of one simple reason: context matters.
When we have a feat or a statement that has different context's going against each other, what it comes down to is which interpretation has the greater supply of evidence to support it. It's similar to when a character in a certain tier is hit with an anti-feat. The burden of proof of them being in the said tier they're rated at becomes even bigger. You cannot automatically assume that the context of "greatest power" here is talking about strength when evidence for the opposite interpretation is being shown, to the extreme. Normally, the default assumption of "greatest power" would be to assume that it is talking about Attack Potency rather than just some powerful hax ability for the sake of occams razor. But in the case here with Alien X, we have nothing but the opposite of Attack Potency suggested from the very evidence used to support his tier. Yet, for some abitrary reason, we are using this to scale Alien X's AP to above something it is not even directly compared to just because "it should be acknowledged".
Simply put, if anyone disagrees with this and argues "greatest power" = Attack Potency instead of hax abilities, then it means the Burden of Proof grows even bigger for you and requires you to give even more evidence that your interpretation of the evidence is the correct one. Otherwise, what has more detail and context put into it takes priority. And so far, no one in support of the upgrade has done this.
The Everlasting's thoughts
What the sub-title says. The Everlasting also has some points about this that he wanted me to address for him, so this section will be for relaying what he thinks about this argument for 2-B.
"Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind. All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon. It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result. The statements about Alien X being the strongest power in the universe were not written with the intent of him being a multiverse buster by applying it to the Chrono Navigator. One guy brought that up in the thread."
"I'd for sure consider the ability to control the fabric of reality and (Going by Word of God statements) rewrite universal concepts on a fundamental level an absolute power. The statement I'm referring to is that one of the writers was asked if Alien X could control mana like Anodites can, and they said that he'd need to rewrite the fundamentals of mana in order to do so."
"Also yeah, they're the "greatest power in the universe" but Osmosians can absorb their powers and even he coudn't survive Anur Vladias."
The last point The Everlasting made here would also suggest Celestialsapiens are known more for their hax abilities rather than attack potency. Because for one, Osmosians are able to absorb a Celestialsapiens powers, which would be impossible if their raw power was the greatest in the universe. The fact that they can be forcibly absorbed would support it being a matter of abilities, which falls perfectly under power absorption. Not only that, but Celestialsapiens are not even able to survive on Anur Vladias. Confirmed by Derrick J Wyatt
EDIT: Ignore whats been crossed out since it was addressed in the previous thread and agreed to not be worth anything argument wise.
Now, im also adding another point that was brought up about the topic before it went off track.
DMB1's Point
Now before anyone jumps the gun, no, I don't have any problem with Ben 10's Multiverse staying 2-B. Im mostly impartial to that to be honest. But a point was brought up in the previous thread by DMB1 himself claiming that the Ben 10 Multiverse being 2-B at all is something very questionable. This was discussed, but I don't remember if this was given a proper conclusion/consesus. So im adding it to the OP so that, incase it doesn't, it can.
"What I don't particularly understand, is how (according to the justifications) they are 2-B despite the Multiverse being made of just Hundreds of Timelines at the time.
Even if it expands ad infinitum, the if at that point in time there are just hundreds of timelines, it would seem that its expansion would be rather slow. If it was much faster, like in the case of Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes' Multiverse, there would be a far larger amount of them."
"Expand exponentially" is impossible if from the beginning of the multiverse to the years 2000-whenver Ben 10 takes place the current amount of timelines formed is within the hundreds.
Besides, even if that was 2-B, it still wouldn't mean that it would be DBH levels of 2-B (I'm mentioning this as people seem to take this as a reference when discussing Alien X's Ap in Vs threads) as you'd have to prove that literally every single possibility creates a new timeline.
A mutliverse that expands "ad infinitum" is as vague as it can get without defined mechanics.
My Proposals
So, you've all seen the reasons on why the current 2-B ratings are incorrect. So now, here are 2 proposals im pushing for
Proposal 1: Remove 2-B entirely
Im open to Proposal 2, but this one is where I lean towards more. The current evidence for supporting the 2-B scaling is flawed as its completely disregarding the need for context, much less ignoring the option that they are being misinterpreted to allow Alien X to scale above something it is not even directly compared with. If people want to argue for "greatest power" meaning attack potency, more evidence is needed to confirm that interpretation of the evidence is the case here, not just assuming it is. Without it, then Alien X and Celestialsapiens have nothing to justify scaling them to the Chrono Navigator. So unless some more evidence comes, this proposal will mean removing 2-B entirely and returning them back to Low 2-C.
Agreeing with P1: LaggingAround, TheArsenal212, Zephyros Omega
Proposal 2: Downgrade to "Possibly 2-B"
Like I said above, I am open to a compromise and letting them keep their 2-B rating, but with a possibly added to it instead of treating them as flat out 2-Bs. That way, this would acknowledge the scaling as being possible rather than 100% factual, as well as acknowleding it being too extremely vague and conjectural to be given a pure 2-B rating. Even The Everlasting said he would be fine with this if wanting to make a compromise.
Agreeing with P2: Spinoirr, LordGriffin1000, Christian Higdon, Andytremon, Psychomaster35, Antvasima, GalacticIron, Jimboydejuan 12, EpicCookie12342, DragonicDoom
Neutral: Zamasu Chan
EDIT: Im keeping the votes as they are as they were made based on the actual topic.
WARNING: Putting this at the very beginning. DO NOT derail this thread with anything that has nothing to do with the topic in question please. The previous thread I made on this was massively derailed by different topics that had nothing to do with why I made my downgrade thread in the first place and made everything a confusing cluttered mess to sort through to have a proper discussion. So this thread is to continue and ONLY discuss the topic at hand. Anything that is considered off-topic I kindly ask to be dropped or removed from the replies if neccessary.
Now, im reposting my original points as to why I made my thread to begin with. Along with points from the previous thread that actually had something to do with the original topic.
Tl;dr of this threads purpose
So to make the long story short for anyone who hasn't been aware of whats been going on, a thread was made for Alien X and Celestialsapiens to be upgraded to 2-B because of Professor Paradox making statements about Celestialspaiens holding the strongest power he has ever seen, which would mean they would be above the power of his Chrono Navigator, which is 2-B. The upgrade went through and that is the current justification for 2-B Celestialsapiens and Alien X. You can find this on their pages. And as I argued for before, I am still against this upgrade being applied. At least in the way it currently is being applied.
Now, the previous thread had a lot of points being thrown around to be in-favor/against the upgrade, half of which came from me. But for this thread, im only going to reiterate one of those arguments as it addressees the most important piece of information on why the upgrade even went through in the first place. That, and for all intents and purposes, it was very much ignored while I was away.
My argument
So, in response to the whole "Celestialspaiens hold the greatest power in the universe, which makes them stronger than the Chrono Navigator and makes them 2-B" argument, here is a counter-argument that I addressed in the thread twice.
"Then that is what i'll repeat on this note first because that is the most important part of this argument. We don't have any actual concrete evidence that Paradox's statements about Celestialspaiens's "power" is even referring to Attack Potency or raw strength in the first place. Out of all those statements, we have 2 statements, one from Paradox and one from Serena herself, that bring a different perspective of context to this regarding "power".
Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.
Pay close attentio to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.
So before anything else is done, we need to take into consideration that "greatest power in the universe" may not even being referring to raw strength at all, but hax abilities, as 2 statements and what Celestialsapiens commonly do imply. The problem with the upgrade here is that it is taking these statements and automatically assuming the context of "greatest power" is talking about Attack Potency to scale Alien X above everything when no concrete evidence actually suggests this context is the case. If anything, only the opposite has been put into detail."
This is my argument that was ignored for the rest of the thread, all the way up to the upgrade being accepted, while I was away. And what I quoted speaks for itself. All of the statements made for Celestialsapiens holding the "greatest power" in the universe are vague statements with little to no context being applied to suggest what "greatest power" in this sense is actually talking about. All except for 2 statements, one made by Paradox and one made by Serena herself, that actually give more context about "power". And they are not talking about Attack Potency. They are strictly talking about hax abilities. Just to make sure that none of you miss what im talking about, lets go through all of the statements made in support for the Celestialsapeins tier.
Statements used to support 2-B Celestialsapiens
- Ben 10 Alien Force - X = Ben + 2
Already dealt with this. This statement is referring to Space-Time Manipulation. Not Attack Potency.
- Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
"Greatest power" here is vague and has no context surrounding it, unlike the previous statement which deals with space-time manipulation.
- Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
"Greatest power" here, again, is vague. There's no context on what "greatest power" is being referred to.
- Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
- Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
- Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
We have 6 statements in total here about Celestialsapiens. And out of the 6, half of them are referring to hax abilities instead of raw brute power, which is what Attack Potency is. And the other half? Have no context. Adding this with Celestialsapiens being commonly known for altering universes and having many abilities, none of these statements suggest for one moment that Celestialspaiens hold more raw strength than anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse.
"Greatest power still means power in general"
Now, this argument was brought up in the thread and I expect it to be repeated here in an attempt to counter my points. So im going to address it now.
For those of you who want to argue "holding the greatest power means straight up having the greatest power", as in the sense of being the strongest in general when it comes to raw power and everything else, that isn't how this works here. Why? Because of one simple reason: context matters.
When we have a feat or a statement that has different context's going against each other, what it comes down to is which interpretation has the greater supply of evidence to support it. It's similar to when a character in a certain tier is hit with an anti-feat. The burden of proof of them being in the said tier they're rated at becomes even bigger. You cannot automatically assume that the context of "greatest power" here is talking about strength when evidence for the opposite interpretation is being shown, to the extreme. Normally, the default assumption of "greatest power" would be to assume that it is talking about Attack Potency rather than just some powerful hax ability for the sake of occams razor. But in the case here with Alien X, we have nothing but the opposite of Attack Potency suggested from the very evidence used to support his tier. Yet, for some abitrary reason, we are using this to scale Alien X's AP to above something it is not even directly compared to just because "it should be acknowledged".
Simply put, if anyone disagrees with this and argues "greatest power" = Attack Potency instead of hax abilities, then it means the Burden of Proof grows even bigger for you and requires you to give even more evidence that your interpretation of the evidence is the correct one. Otherwise, what has more detail and context put into it takes priority. And so far, no one in support of the upgrade has done this.
The Everlasting's thoughts
What the sub-title says. The Everlasting also has some points about this that he wanted me to address for him, so this section will be for relaying what he thinks about this argument for 2-B.
"Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind. All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon. It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result. The statements about Alien X being the strongest power in the universe were not written with the intent of him being a multiverse buster by applying it to the Chrono Navigator. One guy brought that up in the thread."
"I'd for sure consider the ability to control the fabric of reality and (Going by Word of God statements) rewrite universal concepts on a fundamental level an absolute power. The statement I'm referring to is that one of the writers was asked if Alien X could control mana like Anodites can, and they said that he'd need to rewrite the fundamentals of mana in order to do so."
The last point The Everlasting made here would also suggest Celestialsapiens are known more for their hax abilities rather than attack potency. Because for one, Osmosians are able to absorb a Celestialsapiens powers, which would be impossible if their raw power was the greatest in the universe. The fact that they can be forcibly absorbed would support it being a matter of abilities, which falls perfectly under power absorption. Not only that, but Celestialsapiens are not even able to survive on Anur Vladias. Confirmed by Derrick J Wyatt
EDIT: Ignore whats been crossed out since it was addressed in the previous thread and agreed to not be worth anything argument wise.
Now, im also adding another point that was brought up about the topic before it went off track.
DMB1's Point
Now before anyone jumps the gun, no, I don't have any problem with Ben 10's Multiverse staying 2-B. Im mostly impartial to that to be honest. But a point was brought up in the previous thread by DMB1 himself claiming that the Ben 10 Multiverse being 2-B at all is something very questionable. This was discussed, but I don't remember if this was given a proper conclusion/consesus. So im adding it to the OP so that, incase it doesn't, it can.
"What I don't particularly understand, is how (according to the justifications) they are 2-B despite the Multiverse being made of just Hundreds of Timelines at the time.
Even if it expands ad infinitum, the if at that point in time there are just hundreds of timelines, it would seem that its expansion would be rather slow. If it was much faster, like in the case of Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes' Multiverse, there would be a far larger amount of them."
"Expand exponentially" is impossible if from the beginning of the multiverse to the years 2000-whenver Ben 10 takes place the current amount of timelines formed is within the hundreds.
Besides, even if that was 2-B, it still wouldn't mean that it would be DBH levels of 2-B (I'm mentioning this as people seem to take this as a reference when discussing Alien X's Ap in Vs threads) as you'd have to prove that literally every single possibility creates a new timeline.
A mutliverse that expands "ad infinitum" is as vague as it can get without defined mechanics.
My Proposals
So, you've all seen the reasons on why the current 2-B ratings are incorrect. So now, here are 2 proposals im pushing for
Proposal 1: Remove 2-B entirely
Im open to Proposal 2, but this one is where I lean towards more. The current evidence for supporting the 2-B scaling is flawed as its completely disregarding the need for context, much less ignoring the option that they are being misinterpreted to allow Alien X to scale above something it is not even directly compared with. If people want to argue for "greatest power" meaning attack potency, more evidence is needed to confirm that interpretation of the evidence is the case here, not just assuming it is. Without it, then Alien X and Celestialsapiens have nothing to justify scaling them to the Chrono Navigator. So unless some more evidence comes, this proposal will mean removing 2-B entirely and returning them back to Low 2-C.
Agreeing with P1: LaggingAround, TheArsenal212, Zephyros Omega
Proposal 2: Downgrade to "Possibly 2-B"
Like I said above, I am open to a compromise and letting them keep their 2-B rating, but with a possibly added to it instead of treating them as flat out 2-Bs. That way, this would acknowledge the scaling as being possible rather than 100% factual, as well as acknowleding it being too extremely vague and conjectural to be given a pure 2-B rating. Even The Everlasting said he would be fine with this if wanting to make a compromise.
Agreeing with P2: Spinoirr, LordGriffin1000, Christian Higdon, Andytremon, Psychomaster35, Antvasima, GalacticIron, Jimboydejuan 12, EpicCookie12342, DragonicDoom
Neutral: Zamasu Chan
EDIT: Im keeping the votes as they are as they were made based on the actual topic.
