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About 2-B Alien X

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I was going to make this later on in the week, but I changed my mind. Going to get this over with now. And yes, we are doing this again since I was too busy to respond to anything from the previous thread where the 2-B upgrade went through.

Tl;dr of this threads purpose
So to make the long story short for anyone who hasn't been aware of whats been going on, a thread was made for Alien X and Celestialsapiens to be upgraded to 2-B because of Professor Paradox making statements about Celestialspaiens holding the strongest power he has ever seen, which would mean they would be above the power of his Chrono Navigator, which is 2-B. The upgrade went through and that is the current justification for 2-B Celestialsapiens and Alien X. You can find this on their pages. And as I argued for before, I am still against this upgrade being applied. At least in the way it currently is being applied.

Now, the previous thread had a lot of points being thrown around to be in-favor/against the upgrade, half of which came from me. But for this thread, im only going to reiterate one of those arguments as it addressees the most important piece of information on why the upgrade even went through in the first place. That, and for all intents and purposes, it was very much ignored while I was away.

My argument
So, in response to the whole "Celestialspaiens hold the greatest power in the universe, which makes them stronger than the Chrono Navigator and makes them 2-B" argument, here is a counter-argument that I addressed in the thread twice.

"Then that is what i'll repeat on this note first because that is the most important part of this argument. We don't have any actual concrete evidence that Paradox's statements about Celestialspaiens's "power" is even referring to Attack Potency or raw strength in the first place. Out of all those statements, we have 2 statements, one from Paradox and one from Serena herself, that bring a different perspective of context to this regarding "power".

Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.

Serena:
We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

Pay close attentio
to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.

So before anything else is done, we need to take into consideration that "greatest power in the universe" may not even being referring to raw strength at all, but hax abilities, as 2 statements and what Celestialsapiens commonly do imply. The problem with the upgrade here is that it is taking these statements and automatically assuming the context of "greatest power" is talking about Attack Potency to scale Alien X above everything when no concrete evidence actually suggests this context is the case. If anything, only the opposite has been put into detail."


This is my argument that was ignored for the rest of the thread, all the way up to the upgrade being accepted, while I was away. And what I quoted speaks for itself. All of the statements made for Celestialsapiens holding the "greatest power" in the universe are vague statements with little to no context being applied to suggest what "greatest power" in this sense is actually talking about. All except for 2 statements, one made by Paradox and one made by Serena herself, that actually give more context about "power". And they are not talking about Attack Potency. They are strictly talking about hax abilities. Just to make sure that none of you miss what im talking about, lets go through all of the statements made in support for the Celestialsapeins tier.

Statements used to support 2-B Celestialsapiens

Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

Already dealt with this. This statement is referring to Space-Time Manipulation. Not Attack Potency.

Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.

"Greatest power" here is vague and has no context surrounding it, unlike the previous statement which deals with space-time manipulation.

Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!

"Greatest power" here, again, is vague. There's no context on what "greatest power" is being referred to.

  • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
Self explanatory. I don't even have to go into how "can do anything" is quite obviously vague.

  • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Once again, already dealt with this. "Ideas becoming real" is not Attack Potency. It is Reality Warping.

  • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
This would actually be a 3rd statement that supports my argument when looking back at this. Paradox here says "abilities", not strength. And "omnipotent" is quite obviously self-explanatory on why its ambiguous and even more extremely vague.

We have 6 statements in total here about Celestialsapiens. And out of the 6, half of them are referring to hax abilities instead of raw brute power, which is what Attack Potency is. And the other half? Have no context. Adding this with Celestialsapiens being commonly known for altering universes and having many abilities, none of these statements suggest for one moment that Celestialspaiens hold more strength than anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse.

"Greatest power still means power in general"
Now, this argument was brought up in the thread and I expect it to be repeated here in an attempt to counter my points. So im going to address it now.

For those of you who want to argue "holding the greatest power means straight up having the greatest power", as in the sense of being the strongest in general when it comes to raw power and everything else, that isn't how this works here. Why? Because of one simple reason: context matters.

When we have a feat or a statement that has different context's going against each other, what it comes down to is which interpretation has the greater supply of evidence to support it. It's similar to when a character in a certain tier is hit with an anti-feat. The burden of proof of them being in said tier becomes more significant. You cannot automatically assume that the context of "greatest power" here is talking about strength when evidence for the opposite interpretation is being shown, to the extreme. Normally, the default assumption of "greatest power" would be to assume that it is talking about Attack Potency rather than just some powerful hax ability for the sake of occams razor. But in the case here with Alien X, we have nothing but the opposite of Attack Potency suggested from the very evidence used to support his tier. Yet, for some abitrary reason, we are using this to scale Alien X's AP to above something it is not even directly compared to just because "it should be acknowledged".

Simply put, if anyone disagrees with this and argues "greatest power" = Attack Potency, then it means the Burden of Proof grows even bigger for you and requires you to give even more evidence that your interpretation of the evidence is the correct one. Otherwise, what has more detail and context put into it takes priority. And so far, no one in support of the upgrade has done this.

The Everlasting's thoughts
What the sub-title says. The Everlasting also has some points about this that he wanted me to address for him, so this section will be for relaying what he thinks about this argument for 2-B.

"Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind. All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon. It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result. The statements about Alien X being the strongest power in the universe were not written with the intent of him being a multiverse buster by applying it to the Chrono Navigator. One guy brought that up in the thread."

"I'd for sure consider the ability to control the fabric of reality and (Going by Word of God statements) rewrite universal concepts on a fundamental level an absolute power. The statement I'm referring to is that one of the writers was asked if Alien X could control mana like Anodites can, and they said that he'd need to rewrite the fundamentals of mana in order to do so."

"Also yeah, they're the "greatest power in the universe" but Osmosians can absorb their powers and even he coudn't survive Anur Vladias."


The last point The Everlasting made here would also suggest Celestialsapiens are known more for their hax abilities rather than attack potency. Because for one, Osmosians are able to absorb a Celestialsapiens powers, which would be impossible if their raw power was the greatest in the universe. The fact that they can be forcibly absorbed would support it being a matter of abilities, which falls perfectly under power absorption. Not only that, but Celestialsapiens are not even able to survive on Anur Vladias. Confirmed by Derrick J Wyatt

My Proposals
So, you've all seen the reasons on why the current 2-B reasons are incorrect. So now, here are 2 proposals im pushing for

Proposal 1: Remove 2-B entirely
Im open to Proposal 2, but this one is where I lean towards more. The current evidence for supporting the 2-B scaling is flawed as its completely disregarding the need for context, much less ignoring the option that they are being misinterpreted to allow Alien X to scale above something it is not even directly compared with. If people want to argue for "greatest power" meaning attack potency, more evidence is needed to confirm that interpretation of the evidence is the case here, not just assuming it is. Without it, then Alien X and Celestialsapiens have nothing to justify scaling them to the Chrono Navigator. So unless some more evidence comes, this proposal will mean removing 2-B entirely and returning them back to Low 2-C.

Agreeing with P1: LaggingAround, TheArsenal212

Proposal 2: Downgrade to "Possibly 2-B"
Like I said above, I am open to a compromise and letting them keep their 2-B rating, but with a possibly added to it instead of treating them as flat out 2-Bs. That way, this would acknowledge the scaling as being possible rather than 100% factual, as well as acknowleding it being too extremely vague and conjectural to be given a pure 2-B rating. Even The Everlasting said he would be fine with this if wanting to make a compromise.

Agreeing with P2: Spinoirr, LordGriffin1000, Christian Higdon, Andytremon, Psychomaster35, Antvasima, GalacticIron, Jimboydejuan 12, EpicCookie12342

Neutral: Zamasu Chan
 
Interesting, I think the second option is good. It could still be referring to there strength.
 
After seeing your arguments properly, I definitely see where you're coming from now. I'm especially thinking of agreeing with P1 because of the context, and the 5D imp analogy. You and Ever did a good job.

So I'm neutral still (for now) but I see P1 as the outcome for the downgrade if it goes through.
 
The fact that this whole proposal starts from the exact premise that you think you are right already so we should choose a proposal doesn't sit well with me.

And i already read what you had to say, plus Everlasting's thoughts. I don't see any actual change, I wasn't convinced before and I am still not now. If my last comments weren't clear enough, I don't see authorial intent as having a shred of weight in this.
 
Alien X and Celestialsapiens to be upgraded to 2-B because of Professor Paradox making statements about Celestialspaiens holding the strongest power he has ever seen

I'm sorry are you suggesting we upgrade someone because of a simple statement being made? If this gets accepted, ALOT of content revisions will need to be made.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
The fact that this whole proposal starts from the exact premise that you think you are right already so we should choose a proposal doesn't sit well with me.
That wasnt what I said. Or what I was implying here.

What my argument is here is that the upgrade is flawed because you guys are automatically assuming the context of these statements are referring to something to suit your narrative when the evidence does not actually support that. Instead, it supports my interpretation of the context. That instead of these statements referring to Attack Potency, it is referring to Hax abilities.

Am I saying im 100% correct? No. But what I am saying is that because there is clearly a different context being suggested here, the burden of proof for 2-B Alien X/Celestialsapiens grows even bigger and requires even more evidence. And IF no more evidence can actually be supplied to support the upgrade, then they need to be downgraded back to Low 2-C. Or at the very least, "Possibly 2-B".
 
Pretty sure more than a statement is required for an upgrade.

For example.

This is completely hypothetical btw

Lets say the SOSP (Naruto) says Naruto is the strongest being he's ever seen. We know that he knows of Kaguya's power ETSB, Traveling Dimensions, Infinity Tsuki, etc, and we scale him above her just because of that ONE statement.

Another example, which is actually canon (I think) Monkey. D Dragon is considered the most dangerous man in One Piece. Should we scale dragon above Whitebeard and Garp because of those statements without actual feats? No.
 
You can most certainly have ratings based on statements even if someone doesn't perform feats of that level, characters above universal in particular fall under this a lot

I will admit they will usually have more solid context than this, but the idea of statements being useless in the absence of feats is just false
 
If Celestialsapien's power is "explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation," the Chrono Navigator's power of space-time manipulation can destroy the multiverse by damaging space-time, and Paradox considers Celestialsapiens space-time manipulation the greatest power in comparison, then Celestialsapiens are still above the Chrono Navigator. Their Space-Time Manipulation would be able to do the same feat.
 
Andytrenom said:
You can most certainly have ratings based on statements even if someone doesn't perform feats of that level, characters above universal in particular fall under this a lot
I will admit they will usually have more solid context than this, but the idea of statements being useless in the absence of feats is just false
prepare for a flood of crts.
 
Pay close attentio to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.

Yet we still used one of his reality warping feats (remaking the universe) as a basis for his low-2C rating, so for a reality warper like Alien X where he has to conjure up a certain amount of power to do reality warping it can just be scaled to AP no?

Statements used to support 2-B Celestialsapiens

Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.


Already dealt with this. This statement is referring to Space-Time Manipulation. Not Attack Potency.

Rex Salazar also has space-time manipulation on a universal scale and that gives him his low-2C rating so again scales to his AP, just like Lucy (2014 Film Lucy) and several other low-2C's. Agreed that this does not imply multiversal Alien X but it also doesn't contradict it.

Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.

"Greatest power" here is vague and has no context surrounding it, unlike the previous statement which deals with space-time manipulation.

Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!

"Greatest power" here, again, is vague. There's no context on what "greatest power" is being referred to.

Aggregor steals Aliens' power and gains both their AP and abilities so both are referenced (oneshot Humungousaur with Armodrillo's hammer arm).

  • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Neutral on this.

  • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
This would actually be a 3rd statement that supports my argument when looking back at this. Paradox here says "abilities", not strength. And "omnipotent" is quite obviously self-explanatory on why its ambiguous and even more extremely vague.

This would also include the ability to destroy whatever level of AP we scale Alien X to or to rewrite the multiverse like Maltruant tried to do.

The Everlasting's thoughts

What the sub-title says. The Everlasting also has some points about this that he wanted me to address for him, so this section will be for relaying what he thinks about this argument for 2-B.

"Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind. All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon. It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result. The statements about Alien X being the strongest power in the universe were not written with the intent of him being a multiverse buster by applying it to the Chrono Navigator. One guy brought that up in the thread."

From the episode "Paradox":

Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

From the episode "Ben Again":

Ben Tennyson: Professor Paradox? What's with the Steam-punk make over?

Professor Paradox: Let's say I've been forced to take a more active role in temporal affairs of late, it's become open warfare on the space-time continuum I'm afraid.

Ben Tennyson: A time war?! Is it bad that I think that sounds awesome?

Max Tennyson: Uh, Ben, you want to introduce us to your friend here?

Professor Paradox: Oh, my apologies. I can see I have you at a disadvantage. Or I will have had you at a disadvantage. Time travel makes verb tenses so confusing. I am professor Paradox, for ironic reasons we needn't go into. Ben, a word. I'm not sure how much time we have, so listen carefully. Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.

It could be that in Alien Force Paradox referenced the time war and him and Ben working together to stop Eon from destroying all of reality, however pretty sure that AF Paradox would only know about it and not actually participated in it yet because of his new look, his hand being cut off and his hair that is now gray for some reason cause he doesn't actually age…

From the episode Let's do the Time War again: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3pawtw 21:12, Maltruant says that he will end the time war before it even began, meaning him going back to the Big Bang and reshaping the multiverse/universe to his liking (depends on alternate timelines) so if Paradox referenced this in Alien Force (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p2v7c 20:30 Maltruant is stuck in a time loop where everyone except Maltruant himself and Rook knows about) it would still tie back to a/the time war (there are multiple sort of I think… (maybe one without Paradox?) time travel is confusing) which should then tie back to Professor Paradox keeping his Chrono Navigator from Eon so he couldn't destroy all of reality.

Long story short: don't underestimate Man of Action.

"I'd for sure consider the ability to control the fabric of reality and (Going by Word of God statements) rewrite universal concepts on a fundamental level an absolute power. The statement I'm referring to is that one of the writers was asked if Alien X could control mana like Anodites can, and they said that he'd need to rewrite the fundamentals of mana in order to do so."

Fair point but generally the bad guy (Aggregor never really revealed what he wanted to do with said power IIRC) wants to rewrite the multiverse to his liking so that would still be 2B no, or is that only if the bad guy destroys the multiverse and then rebuilds it?

"Also yeah, they're the "greatest power in the universe" but Osmosians can absorb their powers and even he coudn't survive Anur Vladias."

2B power absorption for Osmosians, I'm fine with this, otherwise it would be low-2C which is infinitely above Kevin and Aggregor's own AP anyways. And he has no resistance to life-force absorption, noted.

Also wouldn't Aggregor need more than just being able to change the way mana works since he could still get his power absorbed by other Osmosians (unless we make Alien X a low-2C with the ability to kill everyone across the multiverse via manipulating the way mana works on a multiversal scale) anyways or get possessed by other bad guys like Zs'Skayr who need no life-force aka mana? So he would need the physical power to kill everyone and everything at once across the multiverse if he so wished.

Because for one, Osmosians are able to absorb a Celestialsapiens powers, which would be impossible if their raw power was the greatest in the universe.

Why tho? Alien X is already the strongest being in the prime timeline and he can get his powers absorbed by Osmosians, assuming the Chrono Navigator doesn't exist and Paradox stated that Alien X is the strongest power in the universe we wouldn't then be allowed to use it as evidence for him being low-2C because he can get his power absorbed by Osmosians?

For now I'm neutral on what his rating should actually be, just wanted to point all this out.
 
I'll respond to the other points later but for now:

Firestorm808 said:
If Celestialsapien's power is "explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation," the Chrono Navigator's power of space-time manipulation can destroy the multiverse by damaging space-time, and Paradox considers Celestialsapiens space-time manipulation the greatest power in comparison, then Celestialsapiens are still above the Chrono Navigator. Their Space-Time Manipulation would be able to do the same feat.
That is not how this works, whatsover.

First of all, the Chrono Navigator isnt 2-B through space-time manipulation. Its 2-B through sheer power. Otherwise we would have never scaled Alien X above the Navigator in the first place. Being able to destroy space time =/= having the ability to manipulate or alter it. This is like saying any tier 2 character in general would get space-time manipulation from this.

Second of all, I NEVER said Celestialsapiens only power is through hax abilities. I said that their hax abilities are whats mostly considererd the "greatest power" in the universe because of what the context from these statements greatly suggest. Dont confuse the 2.
 
Some of the argument I honestly feel are very bad, particularly the bit about how "greatest power in the universe" should mean power absorption or the death effect of that planet shouldn't work. The statement isn't "untouchable by everything in the universe" or "transcendent of everything in the universe", it doesn't imply that there is no means of affecting the character in-universe, just that they are more powerful than anything else, most likely in terms of AP

Also "ability" typical constitutes strength, if someone says "the ability of that boxer is incredible" then it likely refers to how hard he hits as well as what techniques he uses. Similarly Paradox using the word ability when talking about Aggregor wanting to absorb alien X means nothing significant, it is just another way of saying "he will use power absorption", it doesn't imply their haxes being the focus of the statement more than their AP, which seems to be what's being suggested

Nevertheless, I am fine with the compromise solution, even if I don't like all the arguments
 
I think the busting multiverse with 6 thoughts is now consistent with the other multiversal feats.
 
Cropfist said:
I think the busting multiverse with 6 thoughts is now consistent with the other multiversal feats.
Outside of Vsbattle i know this term is not used here but in my opinion Derrick jay wyatt was asked can Alien X destroy a multiverse or Omniverse his answer was 6 thoughts so omniverse counts.not saying to put it in this site or anything just saying in general as a character alien x with 6 thoughts can destroy both as multiverse and omniverse mentioned by statement.
 
An omniverse can mean anything. It is unquantifiable, and we do not use the term. Sorry. In addition, a casual Q&A reply does not trumph what happens in the show itself.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
That is not how this works, whatsover.

First of all, the Chrono Navigator isnt 2-B through space-time manipulation. Its 2-B through sheer power. Otherwise we would have never scaled Alien X above the Navigator in the first place. Being able to destroy space time =/= having the ability to manipulate or alter it. This is like saying any tier 2 character in general would get space-time manipulation from this.

Second of all, I NEVER said Celestialsapiens only power is through hax abilities. I said that their hax abilities are whats mostly considererd the "greatest power" in the universe because of what the context from these statements greatly suggest. Dont confuse the 2.
I did not say that destroying space-time means that a person can manipulate it. I said that destroying space-time can be done with sufficient space-time manipulation and reality warping. At the moment, we give the Chrono Navigator Time Manipulation and Reality Warping, and those are the abilities that it uses to destroy all of space-time.

James Jaspers is rated multiversal because he can affect multiple universes/timelines with his reality warping and space-time manipulation. The Chrono Navigator does the same. I'm sure Andytrenom and Antvasima know of other characters who fall under this category.

If Paradox was referring to Celestialsapiens having the greater of these hax abilities, then Celestialsapiens are still 2-B.
 
Firestorm's Arguments

>I said that destroying space-time can be done with sufficient space-time manipulation and reality warping.

Yes, but only when the said space-time manipulation and reality warping is suited for combat purposes. It depends on how the haxes are to be used and no Celestialsapien has ever used either haxes for combat purposes to destroy someone or something else. They can change the very nature of time and space, but its never stated they can actually use their dominion over it to destroy space-time.

Not to mention, ratings that are done using these kind of haxes are more times than not given them to be rated seperate from their physical stats. Just like when characters create 4-A pocket dimensions using a kind of reality warping ability that doesn't scale to their normal stats, unless more context and evidence of it scaling is obviously given,

>At the moment, we give the Chrono Navigator Time Manipulation and Reality Warping

Yes because the Navigator is able to be used to have dominion over the Multiverse, is able to freely travel through time and literally anchor entire timelines to each other. Obvious on why it has those haxes.

>and those are the abilities that it uses to destroy all of space-time.

Since when was this ever stated? Because if what you're saying here was true, Celestialsapiens would never have even scaled above the nagivator in the first place. Being more powerful than someone or something that uses hax to do a feat doesn't mean the feat scales to you as it wouldn't be done with sheer attack potency.

>James Jaspers is rated multiversal because he can affect multiple universes/timelines with his reality warping and space-time manipulation.

His reality warping isnt the sole reason on why he's 2-C. This is his justification currently:

"Low Multiverse level (He was manipulating the Earth-238 universe in his own image, and casually breaking the laws of psychics as he did so. Easily capable of making tesseract spaces in 3 dimensional universes. His influence threatened to spill over to multiple universes.) | At least Low Multiverse level, possibly far higher (More powerful than the Earth-238 James Jaspers. He was claimed to be a potential threat to the "Omniverse" as his power continued to grow, but he was stopped before he reached his full potential.)"

Granted, I don't know James Jaspers. But from what his justification on his page says about his reality warping, he can use it for combat as he was remaking a universe into his own image. And even then, he has more justification than reality warping, such as creating spaces in 3 dimensional universes, having his influence spill into multiple other universes and in his second key, it's justification is nothing but sheer attack potency.

>The Chrono Navigator does the same

No, it's 2-B because of it being able to destroy the Multiverse, not manipulate it.

"Attack Potency: Multiverse level (If desired, the Chrono Navigator can damage space-time to the point that "all of existence", referring to the number of alternate timelines that branch off "Ad infinitum",[1] would be destroyed.[2])"

Damaging space-time, let alone outright destroying it, is not a hax feat, it is pure and simple attack potency.

I won't respond to Andytremon's points since he still agrees with "Possibly 2-B" like me and Ever do. And for the sake of not dragging this thread out any longer than it has to, im only responding to what I think I need to respond to.
 
When Eon has the Chrono Navigator, he has "dominion over all space and time." "Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!"

This is clearly Space-Time Manipulation. Said Space-Time Manipulation is so powerful that it "could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself."

So, yes. The Chrono Navigator's powerful Space-Time Manipulation that can affect everything gives it the 2-B rating. If Paradox was saying Celestialsapiens are more powerful in Space-Time Manipulation, they are also 2-B.
 
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