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Undertale downgrades

Ricsi-viragosi

VS Battles
Retired
26,116
3,649
Last one died because of procrastination, so getting this out of the way...

Flowey doesn't scale to Chara
He doesn't know for sure you're Chara, but assumes it (as implied when he says "you're empty inside me, just like me. In-fact... you're Chara, right?").

He believes Chara, power wise, is only equal to Frisk's soul ("I have a plan to become all-powerful. Even more powerful than you and your stolen soul"), never lives to see Chara's full power and never learned anything that would tell him how powerful Chara would become.

Also note that... he is wrong. His plan to become all powerful is the 6 human souls. Frisk alone, in the pacifist route, can stalemate Asriel with the power of 7 human souls (remember that he couldn't reset, which means Frisk had comparable amounts of DT).

There is no reason to assume he is referring to Chara as we see them at the end of the game (in-fact, he seems to be deluded into thinking Frisk or The Player is Chara, much like in the end of the pacifist route) when he said he is stronger, there is no reason to assume he even knows Chara can get that powerful, and no reason to assume he is right when Frisk alone has comparable DT to Asriel at his strongest.

He goes to Low 2-C, possibly 2-C because 6 save files. Only possibly 2-C because creating save files doesn't automatically translate to AP, and he never creates them at once, nor has he destroyed them all at once.

Asriel doesn't scale to Chara
Lack of proof, plain and simple. Nothing implies Asriel is comparable to Chara in power. Infinite stats really mean nothing here.

Chara's Abstract Existence
They say that "every time one of those (referring to stats) increases, that feeling... that's me". Based on only that, we assume they are a type 1 abstraction embodying every stat.

We don't assume they embody the feeling of megalovania (despite them stating to be that feeling, not the stat change itself), we don't assume the feeling is just Chara becoming stronger/gaining more control (causing you to feel the change),.

What we assume that they are a pure abstraction, impossible to kill until the concept exists, impossible to interact with, and that what we see at the end of genocide is just an avatar.

Why? Why would we make such a reach of an assumption? Why not assume type 3, or at most type 2. Why even assume abstraction because the character says "yup, that feeling's me bud"? Why not assume it's a parasitic ghost that makes you have "feelings" when your stats increase?

But this is not just pure skepticism (despite burden of proof making it fair). Chara says "You. With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power."

For someone that apparently became a type 1 multiverse spanning abstract, it sure is strange they needed guidance to discover it.

Chara's Immortalities
Type 1 should be added by default since they are past time.

Type 7 is unneeded, it only fits if you assume them to be a parasitic ghost, not an abstraction. So, one or the other.

Chara's Regenerationn
They became a parasitic being part of a soul, and as long as the soul exists so will they. That's not Mid-Godly, it's Low-Godly reliant on a soul. Not their own, but still reliant on a soul that they own existing. Voldemort isn't getting mid-godly only because his original's soul being destroyed doesn't stop the soul pieces he left in horcruxes from becoming full on people again.
 
I do think remember that the scaling from Chara for Flowey and Asriel was contested in the past but I think staffs like Saikou disagreed with it. I think it is better to ask them. So, I am neutral there.

The others things looks fine to me.
 
All of this seems reasonable, but I'd like to hear counterarguments first.

Does being beyond time usually give type 1 immortality?
 
Also, why did you mention parasitic when talking about type 7?

Why are you talking about removing the immortality for the interpretation that Chara's not an abstraction if you're also pushing the interpretation that Chara's not an abstraction?
 
Because parasitic ghost is one of the interpretations for their statement about being "that feeling".

And that was written separately, admittedly. Will edit it, but one or the other should probably go.
 
I don't agree with type AE either but I am also doubtful if you actually understand Abstract existence going by your argument. AE types aren't a linear progressions in potency, they are just different ways of embodying something, Type 3 is having command over concepts, type 2 is being able to come back infinitely if a concept exists while type 1 is literally being an abstraction instead of a physical being, no other type except 1 makes sense for existing as a sensation

It being a stretch based off the statement is fair tho
 
I knew type 2 is regen and immortality type 8, but I seemed to remember type 3 only being something's concept without relying on it, didn't remember it granting manipulation over the concept.

My bad on that.
 
I'm going to say, as far as I know that's not the reason why Chara has mid-godly.

Chara has mid-godly due to the fact they died their SOUL was merged with Asriel, so when Asriel died poof went that. However when Frisk/The Player came along with their immense DETERMINATION, Chara re-awoke due to that which would require them to come back even without their SOUL.
 
Flowey not scaling to chara is something that was accepted long ago. Im just kinda revising the verse to see what tier he should be along with everyone else. I agree with the downgrades at least for the time being.

Asriel was gonna perform a true reset which is basically what chara did in the geno route. He should be tiered the same as chara.

Azathoth explains the reason for mid godly though im neutral as of right now. Along with the rest of this atm.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
I'm going to say, as far as I know that's not the reason why Chara has mid-godly.
Chara has mid-godly due to the fact they died their SOUL was merged with Asriel, so when Asriel died poof went that. However when Frisk/The Player came along with their immense DETERMINATION, Chara re-awoke due to that which would require them to come back even without their SOUL.
It's made clear that once a soul is destroyed, (specifically with monsters when they become dust) their "essence" becomes part of whatever it settles on.

Like, Asriel's dust fell on the golden flowers, add a little DT, and you've got flowey.

Chara's corpse was there when their soul was destroyed (in Asriel's hands), add a little DT, you've got a bad reenacting of the exorsist.


It's not soul based regen, but it doesn't happen out of nonexistence.
 
Flowey doesn't just assume Frisk is being possessed by Chara, he can tell. Frisk had shown her first signs of being possessed just before in Toriel's house and during Toriel's fight. He even correctly pointed out the whole "stolen soul" part of it.

Actually he was saying that his Photoshop Flowey form is stronger than Chara, not that Chara and Frisk are equal in power. Also he knew what Chara was going to do via the whole "plan" thing they were talking about.

Finally, someone else who recognizes that Frisk should be 2-B.

Except he's not deluded, he was right about Frisk being possessed by Chara, as the numerous red texts gave many clues that Chara was now the one talking. Heck, the only reason Flowey got killed is because he accidentally reminded Chara that he was the reason she died. Flowey knew that Chara had come back from the dead, and thus also likely had some knowledge about her nature in the void. Also, Frisk at the power she was against Asriel was >>>>> Chara so there's no reason to scale to her.


It does, actually. Undyne the Undying, with 99 ATK and 99 DEF possessed power equal to a sizable portion of Chara's at the time, and throught the run she had gotten ~3 times stronger.


Other people talk about the Abstract Existence so I'll leave it to them.


Something I do agree with is the explanation on Chara's Regenerationn being bullshit. Hell, all of the stuff that talks about an "anomaly" is referring to Chara or Frisk anyway.

What SHOULD be the explanation for Chara's Regenerationn is that if she is completely deleted out of existence, she will instantly come back good as new no matter what.
 
This is the thread where omega floweys scaling was debunked https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2289811

Note also that chara would have destroyed the barrier in the geno ending due to performing the equivilent of a true reset (which affects the games reality and including the barrier). Something flowey is logically incapable of doing.

Azathoth did debunk this with the argument of magica properties. But the problem is that it is stated that the barrier requires "power equal" to the seven souls. Not just the souls themselves.
 
Its an old one that was accepted and supposed to be applied long ago, but didnt because were not sure where to tier flowey. Im fine with flowey being at least low 2-C possibly 2-C for the time being. Though it may possibly change in the future once i finish revising everything.
 
I'm not saying he assumes Frisk is being possessed. I am saying he assumes it's Chara instead of any other soulless husk, as signified by him making a guess that he follows up with a "right?".

He plain says "you and your soul". As in, Frisk's soul. So, he is claiming that he is superior to Frisk's soul, which is wrong. And he does directly equate Frisk's soul as a part of chara, despite the fact that Chara quiet clearly has no control over the soul itself.

I don't really like the idea of giving AP based on DT when the stat, which is canon, remains static (no pun intended) and everyone except Omega Flowey has a logical reason to be hurt by Frisk (emotions and monsters interaction). I would more agree with Flowey's new body not being up to par with his new powers, his powers not scaling to AP (save load stuff never scaled to AP regardless, and him doing it in a more precise manner to create a black void isn't that incredible), or just inconsistency to have that 1 HP damage moment. Regardless, a beast for another time.

No he wasn't. Frisk was only possessed later in game. Red texts does not mean that Chara now suddenly controls all of their actions when it's made clear that Chara possess Frisk later... when they literally posses them, taking away control from you. And no, Pacifist Frisk is in no way superior to Chara. Peak genocide Frisk is stated to have reached their maximum potential powerwise, and Chara can possess Frisk in Pacifist too, which means that Chara literally has all of Pacifist Frisk's power, and then some.


The actual 99 argument? Don't use that... Genocide Frisk uses the 99 items, not Chara. You know, the same Frisk that didn't just destroy all of reality when they hit Sans. Chara still using the knife is no different then Frisk still using the stick against Omega Flowey. Leveling up increases AP regardless of tier. And the idea that Undyne at any point was comparable to full power Chara is whack.


'Kay.


He... he copypasted his savefile in. You do know that means that he copypasted all his previous actions back in, right? Plus, if he has Undertale through steam, that saves the action itself. Regardless, you want to use hacking as proof. Really.
 
I agree with Flowey not scaling to Chara based on reason not from this thread. I also agree with Chara not being a type 1 Abstract

The rest I don't have a solid opinion on, and feel it would be much better for other more knowledgeable members to address them
 
There has been one guy disagreeing with Flowey not scaling... I think? He disagreed with some assumptions, I countered, and he didn't respond.

Most others either agree with, or are not commenting on the AP change.

The abilities revisions seem to be agreed on in general, except the one argument saying that Chara had Mid-Godly because you can't just erase them from the files (which is wrong, there are tutorials online on how to do it).
 
Well, if thats the case, im fine with flowey being downgraded and changing asriels explanation to why he scales to chara in his final form, something i already have planned to do anyway.

Could probably even add a couple keys for his pre flowey and one soul state. Though that may be a different topic altogether.
 
Eh, not sure about that. Both were off screen, and we have zero knowledge on them. They should logically have Load and Save, but might not.

All we know is that they can crush 9-As, but beyond that we can't even know if Asriel already had his fire abilities.
 
Base asriel would just be 9-A. Asriel would 1 soul would probably have a similar rating to undyne the undying for being able to wipe out an entire village of humans (who scale to the strongest monsters) with his power (though he is likely somewhat of a glass cannon due to the damage he took).

God of hyperdeath would have the same rating as flowey for dwarfing by an unfathomable amount to the point where it can be viewed as infinite (not truly infinite. this was explained when asriel got downgraded to 2-B). Angel death should be the same as chara due to causing the world to end with his mere existence and nearly performing the true reset.
 
Pretty sure the damage he took was the whole emotion>dura in monsters. It lets a level 1 Frisk one-shot Toriel, after all.

I suppose I can agree to that, yeah.
 
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