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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision (Continued)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- Status
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No they won't. Although they're stronger they're not THAT much stronger.BlackeJan said:
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I think Gegeta should be low 2-C possibly 2-C. Keeping him at just low 2-C implies the god tiers are relative to him which completely false. Gogeta stomped Broly with an arbitrary percentage of his power "possibly" 2-C is definitely not a stretch.
ProudLearner
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Would Beerus and Champa get At Least Low-2C? Since they are hight into the Low-2C's Also, would that affect the scailing chain for characters who are stonger then the Gods of destruction such as BUW Jiren, MUI Goku, FPSSJ Broly?
My proposal:
Beerus and Champa - At Least Low-2C
FPSSJBroly - At Least Low-2C
BUW Jiren - At Least Low-2C
MUI Goku - At Least Low-2C
Gogeta SSJBlue - At least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C
My proposal:
Beerus and Champa - At Least Low-2C
FPSSJBroly - At Least Low-2C
BUW Jiren - At Least Low-2C
MUI Goku - At Least Low-2C
Gogeta SSJBlue - At least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C
ProudLearner
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This is how I see it:BlackeJan said:
Look at previous message of my proposal I made because it makes sense!
Beerus vs Champa = Base 2-C
Beerus vs BUW Jiren or MUI Goku or FPSSJ Broly = Base 2-C
Full Power Post-TOP Goku x Full Power Post-TOP Vegeta = Gogeta x SSB = Surpassing everything before them/Possibly 2-C
I hope that makes sense, right?
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The only source for UI scaling that we have is a magazine that claims UI (not UIO) Goku has 'possibly' surpassed Beerus. I'd personally agree with Jiren being possibly 2-C due to myself believing that Jiren is stronger than UI Goku...but that would raise eyebrows due to UI Goku trashing Jiren.BlackeJan said:
To elaborate. UI Goku primarily fought Jiren with counters, dodges, etc. UI Goku embodies 'technique', 'skill'. Whereas Jiren was battling UI Goku by overpowering him in beam struggles, clashes, etc. Jiren embodies 'power', 'strength'.
So from my perspective, Jiren is stronger than UI Goku but UI Goku is the far better fighter. It was AP vs Skill. Of course, the gap is unlikely to have been much but it was certainly considerable for Jiren to keep up with Ultra Instinct.
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I think, first and foremost, that we have to agree on Gogeta's tiering before we argue over Jiren, Goku and Broly. As far as we know, the power scaling goes:
Gogeta > Jiren > Goku = Broly
In terms of raw AP. So before anyone were to start arguing over how the latter three scale, we need to know if Gogeta, who is certainly stronger than they are, would scale to At least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-C, Likely 2-C or outright 2-C. I've already claimed several times that Gogeta should be Likely 2-C so I'll wait for other people's arguments for any other possibilities.
Gogeta > Jiren > Goku = Broly
In terms of raw AP. So before anyone were to start arguing over how the latter three scale, we need to know if Gogeta, who is certainly stronger than they are, would scale to At least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-C, Likely 2-C or outright 2-C. I've already claimed several times that Gogeta should be Likely 2-C so I'll wait for other people's arguments for any other possibilities.
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Honestly, this rating might make more sense because characters that feats like Beerus and Champa as 2 Low 2-C characters having a 2-C together are rated as At least Low 2-C. I would fine with this point. I do think the other gods like Belmod should have same tiering as Beeeus and Champa, as well, from Powerscaling.ProudLearner said:
I think the angels and Grant priest new Tier can still follow @AKM Sam's proposal.
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I definitely agree with scaling the other GoDs to Beerus and Champa.Elizhaa said:
Though that raises the question of what to we do with GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta. Do we count them in this or do we keep them at the level?
I think we just need to be a little careful with the powerscaling and everyone who it effect.
ProudLearner
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We should keep them as they are now since we don't have statements to back them up like we do for Jiren or MUI Goku or Broly.TheC2 said:
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So, just that we've got a bit of a compherensive list:
Beerus, Champa, Other GoDs, MUI Goku, BUW Jiren, & FPSS Broly: At least Low 2-C
Angels & SSB Gogeta: At least Low 2-C, Possibly/Likely 2-C
Grand Priest: Likely 2-C
Zen'o: 2-C
Beerus, Champa, Other GoDs, MUI Goku, BUW Jiren, & FPSS Broly: At least Low 2-C
Angels & SSB Gogeta: At least Low 2-C, Possibly/Likely 2-C
Grand Priest: Likely 2-C
Zen'o: 2-C
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Works for me. I think we should only make some GoDs as At least Low 2-C.
Belmod believed Jiren was impossible to defeat, even before Jiren broke his limits. So Base Jiren is probably much stronger than Belmod already. Only LB Jiren and UI Goku scale to Beerus due to magazine scans.
The only reason Champa would be considered At least Low 2-C is due to him and Beerus clashing, resulting in a 2-C feat. However, we also know that Champa is a bit weaker than Beerus (assuming Vados wasn't just joking when she said Champa wasn't as fit as Beerus).
Other GoDs like Sidra displayed genuine fear of Frieza's sadism and ability to control even a small fraction of his Destruction energy. Helles also had disgust and fear of Frieza.
Overall, scaling Beerus and Champa to At least Low 2-C is reasonable. Belmod is not reasonable. Sidra and Helles would have to be argued.
Maybe we should make a separate thread for looking into all the GoD scaling and statements? The manga might be reasonable to use, due to it being the only instance of the GoDs being scaled relative to each other and Toriyama having a direct role in overseeing it.
Belmod believed Jiren was impossible to defeat, even before Jiren broke his limits. So Base Jiren is probably much stronger than Belmod already. Only LB Jiren and UI Goku scale to Beerus due to magazine scans.
The only reason Champa would be considered At least Low 2-C is due to him and Beerus clashing, resulting in a 2-C feat. However, we also know that Champa is a bit weaker than Beerus (assuming Vados wasn't just joking when she said Champa wasn't as fit as Beerus).
Other GoDs like Sidra displayed genuine fear of Frieza's sadism and ability to control even a small fraction of his Destruction energy. Helles also had disgust and fear of Frieza.
Overall, scaling Beerus and Champa to At least Low 2-C is reasonable. Belmod is not reasonable. Sidra and Helles would have to be argued.
Maybe we should make a separate thread for looking into all the GoD scaling and statements? The manga might be reasonable to use, due to it being the only instance of the GoDs being scaled relative to each other and Toriyama having a direct role in overseeing it.
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No. We've only ever seen Beerus and Champa nearly fight in the anime. The manga has several instances of it but it ended in Beerus and Quitela having a tie in a battle royale. Manga Beerus is capable of taking on multiple other GoDs at one time by using the movements of Ultra Instinct.
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I think Gogeta getting a "likely/possibly/whatever 2-C" is fine since he scales vastly above Broly who is comparable to Beerus.
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Yeah, a separate thread would be good, make it and put your argument for why in the OP.
Manga scaling is something I would feel is cool but it's not a good idea to mix continuities in VSBW's eyes. I think the basic assumption that Beerus and Champa aren't the strongest or even close to it is a good idea to start with, and barring Sidra and Helles, they should all be considered equal. It's the safest assumption.
Manga scaling is something I would feel is cool but it's not a good idea to mix continuities in VSBW's eyes. I think the basic assumption that Beerus and Champa aren't the strongest or even close to it is a good idea to start with, and barring Sidra and Helles, they should all be considered equal. It's the safest assumption.
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Beerus is confirmed to be stronger than Champa, but not that that matters much because it's still their combined might that would destroy both universes and not 100% implied they have to go all out. And it's not suggested Beerus is overwhelmingly stronger, just stronger in general.
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Meh I'll let someone else make a thread if it's considered a good idea.
Obviously continuity mixing is a terrible idea. I'm just claiming that the GoD battle royale in the manga may be worth considering when scaling GoDs in the anime, due to Toriyama having a direct overseer role in the manga itself.
Like I've already argued, we know Belmod should be much weaker than Beerus. We have scans that scale LB Jiren to around Beerus level but we know Belmod deemed Pre-LB Jiren to be 'unbeatable' and that Belmod could never hope to defeat Jiren.
It's clear that that being a GoD isn't some set power. Whis himself has stated that the level of the gods is like a mountain that Goku and Vegeta are only at the foot of (I don't recall if that was in the anime or if it was the manga though). So the variance of power in the GoD-tier is huge.
We also know, again, that Sidra and Helles both displayed some degree of fear at Frieza's sadism and general sociopathic nature. While that might not be 'quite' enough argument for them being weaker than Beerus we would have to note that Beerus has little care for Frieza as a threat. So we know that:
Beerus > Champa >> Belmod ? Helles ? Sidra
We don't know a single thing about any other Destroyer or their power. The only source for them would be the manga. So, overall? I don't think there is any conclusive evidence for any GoD being At least Low 2-C other than Beerus and Champa.
Obviously continuity mixing is a terrible idea. I'm just claiming that the GoD battle royale in the manga may be worth considering when scaling GoDs in the anime, due to Toriyama having a direct overseer role in the manga itself.
Like I've already argued, we know Belmod should be much weaker than Beerus. We have scans that scale LB Jiren to around Beerus level but we know Belmod deemed Pre-LB Jiren to be 'unbeatable' and that Belmod could never hope to defeat Jiren.
It's clear that that being a GoD isn't some set power. Whis himself has stated that the level of the gods is like a mountain that Goku and Vegeta are only at the foot of (I don't recall if that was in the anime or if it was the manga though). So the variance of power in the GoD-tier is huge.
We also know, again, that Sidra and Helles both displayed some degree of fear at Frieza's sadism and general sociopathic nature. While that might not be 'quite' enough argument for them being weaker than Beerus we would have to note that Beerus has little care for Frieza as a threat. So we know that:
Beerus > Champa >> Belmod ? Helles ? Sidra
We don't know a single thing about any other Destroyer or their power. The only source for them would be the manga. So, overall? I don't think there is any conclusive evidence for any GoD being At least Low 2-C other than Beerus and Champa.
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When?
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No, I just forgot a very bland and brief fight.
I wouldn't consider that too useful. We don't know if they were going all out (they were fighting to entertain Zeno after all) and even if they were, it would make them look weak for not destroying most of the arena (when the arena was barely intact in less than 48 minutes of fighting, mostly from just a few fighters).
Based upon their feats? They failed to entertain Zeno with their fighting and they only made craters in the arena (large ones but still). They also fought with tournament rules so they were likely suppressing to the weakest one's level to avoid any killing and to entertain Zeno with an intense fight.
Still, we have nothing else to go on so I guess we can claim:
Beerus > Champa >> Belmod ? Helles ? Sidra ? Liqueur = Iwan = Arak
But it'd have to be noted that their feats weren't particularly impressive, that they may have been restraining to not kill the weakest of them and that they were fighting to entertain Zeno and to display 'superiority' over the other universes.
I wouldn't consider that too useful. We don't know if they were going all out (they were fighting to entertain Zeno after all) and even if they were, it would make them look weak for not destroying most of the arena (when the arena was barely intact in less than 48 minutes of fighting, mostly from just a few fighters).
Based upon their feats? They failed to entertain Zeno with their fighting and they only made craters in the arena (large ones but still). They also fought with tournament rules so they were likely suppressing to the weakest one's level to avoid any killing and to entertain Zeno with an intense fight.
Still, we have nothing else to go on so I guess we can claim:
Beerus > Champa >> Belmod ? Helles ? Sidra ? Liqueur = Iwan = Arak
But it'd have to be noted that their feats weren't particularly impressive, that they may have been restraining to not kill the weakest of them and that they were fighting to entertain Zeno and to display 'superiority' over the other universes.
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No. Whis only said a mortal that 'a' God of Destruction can not defeat. Whis also claimed that the Destroyer of 'that universe' was stronger than Beerus. But we know that Beerus should be far more powerful than Belmod, based on scaling that we know of and Belmod's fear of Jiren, who didn't reach Beerus level until Jiren broke his limits. To add further, Beerus claimed he 'only lost an arm-wrestling match' which is, decidedly, not a good gauge of power.
If you claimed that Belmod is stronger than Beerus that would open an absurd can of worms where several people would become 2-C or arguably 2-C.
If you claimed that Belmod is stronger than Beerus that would open an absurd can of worms where several people would become 2-C or arguably 2-C.
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Belmods fear of jiren... he has none. Belmod thinks jiren is unbeatable because, guess what? He is stronger than a hakaishin, the gods who are secomd to none, barring jiren. It does not elevate anyone to his level because only hakaishins scale to him. No one in the tournament reached hakaishin levels of power until toppo used his hakaishin powers, and remember that toppo is a newbie compared to Belmod and other hakaishins who have been in that position for hundreds of thousands of years.
All hakaishins scale to each other like it or not.no hakaishin should be a tier above the other. This was a thing that was discussed when the low 2-c upgrade went in and people wanted to leave sidra at 3-A
All hakaishins scale to each other like it or not.no hakaishin should be a tier above the other. This was a thing that was discussed when the low 2-c upgrade went in and people wanted to leave sidra at 3-A
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You...literally just said that Toppo wouldn't scale to the other GoDs, despite being a GoD, because 'he's a newbie' but then have the gall to claim all the destroyers scale to each other despite them having wildly varying races, ages (likely) and potentials...
Your rationale makes absolutely zero sense. The entire argument for Beerus + Champa = 2-C in the first place is based on what Beerus and Champa can do. You admit that the GoDs have varying powers but then you claim that Jiren is stronger than EVERY God of Destruction because Belmod believes Jiren can't be defeated? Yet, Jiren was contending with only other mortals and could only be defeated by Goku asspulling Ultra Instinct, meaning Belmod was objectively correct in believing Jiren couldn't be defeated.
So overall, your only possible argument is based purely on claiming that 'Jiren surpasses all Gods of Destruction'. Which is contradicted in the story itself, promotional materials and magazines.
Broly has CONSISTENTLY been stated to surpass even the powers of a God of Destruction, with Goku even claiming Broly may surpass Beerus. He has also been consistently stated to be the strongest opponent that has ever been fought in Dragon Ball history. We also have magazine scans that hype Goku as 'possibly surpassing' Beerus with MUI.
So what type of scaling are you even trying to present here? Is Broly vastly weaker than Jiren and Goku? Does Belmod have special knowledge of Beerus' actual power, when Beerus himself rejects the idea of Belmod being stronger than him? How does Belmod know the powers of every other destroyer, when the Angel attendants exist to stop Gods of Destruction from fighting one another and causing mass, uncontrolled, destruction?
Effectively speaking, we have to go purely on the words of Belmod. Who is the entire SOURCE of the rumor that Jiren is too powerful for 'a God of Destruction' to defeat. So is Belmod, in your eyes, the word of god that transcends virtually every other piece of evidence and information regarding scaling with Beerus?
Your rationale makes absolutely zero sense. The entire argument for Beerus + Champa = 2-C in the first place is based on what Beerus and Champa can do. You admit that the GoDs have varying powers but then you claim that Jiren is stronger than EVERY God of Destruction because Belmod believes Jiren can't be defeated? Yet, Jiren was contending with only other mortals and could only be defeated by Goku asspulling Ultra Instinct, meaning Belmod was objectively correct in believing Jiren couldn't be defeated.
So overall, your only possible argument is based purely on claiming that 'Jiren surpasses all Gods of Destruction'. Which is contradicted in the story itself, promotional materials and magazines.
Broly has CONSISTENTLY been stated to surpass even the powers of a God of Destruction, with Goku even claiming Broly may surpass Beerus. He has also been consistently stated to be the strongest opponent that has ever been fought in Dragon Ball history. We also have magazine scans that hype Goku as 'possibly surpassing' Beerus with MUI.
So what type of scaling are you even trying to present here? Is Broly vastly weaker than Jiren and Goku? Does Belmod have special knowledge of Beerus' actual power, when Beerus himself rejects the idea of Belmod being stronger than him? How does Belmod know the powers of every other destroyer, when the Angel attendants exist to stop Gods of Destruction from fighting one another and causing mass, uncontrolled, destruction?
Effectively speaking, we have to go purely on the words of Belmod. Who is the entire SOURCE of the rumor that Jiren is too powerful for 'a God of Destruction' to defeat. So is Belmod, in your eyes, the word of god that transcends virtually every other piece of evidence and information regarding scaling with Beerus?
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Can I see your reasoning for why you think Champa is greater than Belmod significantly? I missed that. Because I think it was Whis who meantioned Belmod beat him in an arm wrestling competition, which can imply narratively that Belmod is supposed to be superior to Beerus or at least comparable to him. Meaning Beerus isn't the strongest GoD at least.
I also disagree with the idea that the Gods would have massive power gaps in general between them given all the information we have aboutbtgem fighting both in the anime and in the manga. I would argue that they're in the same realm of power, being certainly capable of harming each other. Though it could be worth noting the comparison of Vegeta to a GoD in the Manga after Beerus stomped him effortlessly, which coincides with Vegeta crushing Toppo, which could be a really low-tier GoD? But, still, not much of a reason to imply that they're not within the realms of the GoDs as they're literally stronger than Toppo who is a God of Destruction himself. At best, Beerus is a high tier god of destruction going by the entire franchise's set up, but that same franchise conflicts with the idea that the gap is so wide between Gods, meaning Goku and Vegeta are even closer in power to Beerus individually than the movie tries to let on.
I also disagree with the idea that the Gods would have massive power gaps in general between them given all the information we have aboutbtgem fighting both in the anime and in the manga. I would argue that they're in the same realm of power, being certainly capable of harming each other. Though it could be worth noting the comparison of Vegeta to a GoD in the Manga after Beerus stomped him effortlessly, which coincides with Vegeta crushing Toppo, which could be a really low-tier GoD? But, still, not much of a reason to imply that they're not within the realms of the GoDs as they're literally stronger than Toppo who is a God of Destruction himself. At best, Beerus is a high tier god of destruction going by the entire franchise's set up, but that same franchise conflicts with the idea that the gap is so wide between Gods, meaning Goku and Vegeta are even closer in power to Beerus individually than the movie tries to let on.
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Can I see your reasoning for why you think Champa is greater than Belmod significantly?
Beerus and Champa are depicted in the show as having similar power but Beerus is stronger. This is shown by their numerous clashes and rivalry. To add further, the 2-C feat is from Beerus and Champa specifically fighting.
I missed that. Because I think it was Whis who meantioned Belmod beat him in an arm wrestling competition,
No. Whis said Belmod was stronger but Beerus denied it and said that he only lost at arm wrestling. It isn't a narrative given for Belmod being stronger. It's a narrative for Beerus to go "No, it was just an arm wrestle that I lost. He isn't stronger."
I also disagree with the idea that the Gods would have massive power gaps in general between them given all the information we have aboutbtgem fighting both in the anime and in the manga.
What information? We know Belmod is weaker than Beerus. We know Toppo is far weaker than Beerus. We know Beerus and Champa clashing can result in them having 2-C destruction. We don't know Sidra or Helles but they fear Frieza's sadism. We have only one depiction of GoDs fighting in the anime and they bored Zeno and barely did more than a huge crater in the ToP stage. To add further, they outright stated they fought with tournament rules, meaning no killing. So they were A. Avoiding killing and B. Trying to entertain Zeno. Not even remotely a good gauge for their power.
In the manga? Beerus fought several other destroyers at the same time and Goku claimed that Beerus could have killed five of them with his Destruction sphere, if not for Sidra's barrier technique just barely saving their lives. Beerus was the last one standing, with Quitela only surviving to the end by using underhanded tricks.
So we have Beerus being stronger than numerous other GoDs (or implied in his depiction as such) in the anime and we have Beerus blatantly trashing several other Destroyers in the manga.
But, still, not much of a reason to imply that they're not within the realms of the GoDs as they're literally stronger than Toppo who is a God of Destruction himself.
Yes, exactly. I'd argue current Goku and Vegeta are within the realm of the GoDs right now. They just aren't anywhere close to Beerus yet (Without Ultra Instinct or Fusion).
but that same franchise conflicts with the idea that the gap is so wide between Gods
And where is the evidence that the gap isn't wide between gods?
meaning Goku and Vegeta are even closer in power to Beerus individually than the movie tries to let on.
Base Gogeta scales above Goku Blue. SS Gogeta is at least 40-50x that. Gogeta Blue is objectively thousands of times that at a minimum.
They are nowhere close to Beerus, at all.
Beerus and Champa are depicted in the show as having similar power but Beerus is stronger. This is shown by their numerous clashes and rivalry. To add further, the 2-C feat is from Beerus and Champa specifically fighting.
I missed that. Because I think it was Whis who meantioned Belmod beat him in an arm wrestling competition,
No. Whis said Belmod was stronger but Beerus denied it and said that he only lost at arm wrestling. It isn't a narrative given for Belmod being stronger. It's a narrative for Beerus to go "No, it was just an arm wrestle that I lost. He isn't stronger."
I also disagree with the idea that the Gods would have massive power gaps in general between them given all the information we have aboutbtgem fighting both in the anime and in the manga.
What information? We know Belmod is weaker than Beerus. We know Toppo is far weaker than Beerus. We know Beerus and Champa clashing can result in them having 2-C destruction. We don't know Sidra or Helles but they fear Frieza's sadism. We have only one depiction of GoDs fighting in the anime and they bored Zeno and barely did more than a huge crater in the ToP stage. To add further, they outright stated they fought with tournament rules, meaning no killing. So they were A. Avoiding killing and B. Trying to entertain Zeno. Not even remotely a good gauge for their power.
In the manga? Beerus fought several other destroyers at the same time and Goku claimed that Beerus could have killed five of them with his Destruction sphere, if not for Sidra's barrier technique just barely saving their lives. Beerus was the last one standing, with Quitela only surviving to the end by using underhanded tricks.
So we have Beerus being stronger than numerous other GoDs (or implied in his depiction as such) in the anime and we have Beerus blatantly trashing several other Destroyers in the manga.
But, still, not much of a reason to imply that they're not within the realms of the GoDs as they're literally stronger than Toppo who is a God of Destruction himself.
Yes, exactly. I'd argue current Goku and Vegeta are within the realm of the GoDs right now. They just aren't anywhere close to Beerus yet (Without Ultra Instinct or Fusion).
but that same franchise conflicts with the idea that the gap is so wide between Gods
And where is the evidence that the gap isn't wide between gods?
meaning Goku and Vegeta are even closer in power to Beerus individually than the movie tries to let on.
Base Gogeta scales above Goku Blue. SS Gogeta is at least 40-50x that. Gogeta Blue is objectively thousands of times that at a minimum.
They are nowhere close to Beerus, at all.
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No. You have to provide proof that the Gods of Destruction are magically all around the same strength. I have already provided plenty of evidence and argument for the contrary. You yourself are not providing any counterarguments of reasonable strength to claim that other GoDs should scale to Beerus (and Champa).Ovrhide said:
Now, I've been posting too much about this argument and I sincerely do not believe you are willing to concede on this matter. So I'll wait for some other people to chime in with their own arguments and perspectives to see where the majority stands.
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Okay, seems like majority of people agree with Gogeta being "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C". But I am not following how this discussion turned into making the GoDs "At least Low 2-C".
It would indicate that they can potentially be higher than Low 2-C when we have no evidence suggesting that. They fail to clear the minimum requirement of being 2-C. And we don't use "At least" just because a character is very high into a tier, otherwise we would have used it for other 3-A DBS characters.
It would indicate that they can potentially be higher than Low 2-C when we have no evidence suggesting that. They fail to clear the minimum requirement of being 2-C. And we don't use "At least" just because a character is very high into a tier, otherwise we would have used it for other 3-A DBS characters.
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Like I've already said. Beerus being at least Low 2-C is reasonable (considering Champa is apparently weaker and them clashing equates to 2-C feats). Any other GoD (barring maybe Champa) being at least Low 2-C is hogwash with no evidence for them scaling to Beerus' level.
Out of curiosity, what is the distinction of 'Likely' and 'Possibly' on the wiki? Is it just the grammatical meaning of the words or is there a specific use on the wiki?
Out of curiosity, what is the distinction of 'Likely' and 'Possibly' on the wiki? Is it just the grammatical meaning of the words or is there a specific use on the wiki?
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