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Answer this, if two characters work together to hurt a baseline 2-C character then what tier are the 2 characters in?
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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision (Continued)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- Status
ProudLearner
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They were both STOP by the angels when they were about to execute their last blow that would of annihilate both 6 and 7 universes.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
It has been shown on the Anime. Dub and Subs. English Dub and English Subs
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Just clearing a misunderstanding here:DarkDragonMedeus said:
Prom never disagreed with my proposal. She didn't even comment after I brought it up. What she disagreed with was the OP, and said that the rule should just be removed.
Matthew also never directly disagreed with my proposal, he never even addressed it. His argument that the feat is just Low 2-C was debunked quite early in the thread.
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Yeah no, that doesn't mean their very next attack would've destroyed both the universes in an instant. That's just the angels breaking up the fight.ProudLearner said:
ProudLearner
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Because if the angels did not stop it, they would of destroy it. It's simple. That's how dragon ball works!ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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Lol "that's how Dragon Ball works" what kind of argument is that?
Yeah they would destroy it, but nothing says it would be in an instant.
Yeah they would destroy it, but nothing says it would be in an instant.
ProudLearner
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I mean.. your argument is laughable too.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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The argument is incorrect due to Dragon Ball characters having a great deal of control with their Ki (see Beerus fighting at far lesser than that of 1% his power against SSG Goku). Beerus and Champa were merely fighting at a suppressed strength and, as they were getting angrier with eachother, began to increase their power. Whis and Vados remark that if they fought 'seriously' it would result in both Universe 6 and 7 being destroyed.
In other words, arguing that they 'didn't even destroy a room' is a ridiculous argument. Dragon Ball handwaves everything away with 'K-Ki Control!' to justify why entire galaxies aren't destroyed by characters powering up. Goku has even destroyed a pocket dimension by simply powering up but he certainly doesn't tear apart spacetime everytime he powers up, right?
In other words, arguing that they 'didn't even destroy a room' is a ridiculous argument. Dragon Ball handwaves everything away with 'K-Ki Control!' to justify why entire galaxies aren't destroyed by characters powering up. Goku has even destroyed a pocket dimension by simply powering up but he certainly doesn't tear apart spacetime everytime he powers up, right?
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I mean.. your argument is laughable too.
It's so laughable yet you can't actually refute it.
It's so laughable yet you can't actually refute it.
ProudLearner
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They never said anything about "destroying one universe at a time" @ShadowWarrior1999
They said both universes at the same time.
The begining of the battle was just simply displaying their destructive raisng power. Then, the last blow was stop because it would of destroy both universes.
Tha's how dragon ball works. Maybe stop with the dogma of the teiring system?
They said both universes at the same time.
The begining of the battle was just simply displaying their destructive raisng power. Then, the last blow was stop because it would of destroy both universes.
Tha's how dragon ball works. Maybe stop with the dogma of the teiring system?
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@ProudLearner It's not stated but the visual evidence implies it.
If I say I will eat two slices of pizza, does that mean I will eat them at the same time?
Yeah this is headcanon. Nothing says that their very next strike would destroy both universes, just that their fighting could destroy both universes which is why they didn't let them continue.
"That's how Dragon Ball works" isn't an argument.
If I say I will eat two slices of pizza, does that mean I will eat them at the same time?
Yeah this is headcanon. Nothing says that their very next strike would destroy both universes, just that their fighting could destroy both universes which is why they didn't let them continue.
"That's how Dragon Ball works" isn't an argument.
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"their fighting takes a long ass time to destroy the room they're in"
That was when they were only getting started. There is a reason the fight was stopped right then and there with a huge sense of urgency before it escalated, otherwise Whis and Vados wouldn't even feel the need to intervene for another decillion years.
"It would make sense that it would destroy Universe 7 first, since that's the universe they're in and then after shattering U7's dimensional walls, then they would destroy Universe 6."
That makes absolutely no sense and was addressed in the last thread. By that logic they would destroy all 12 universes one after the other, not just 2. So if Vados was implying over time destruction, her statement would have been "annihilation of all universes". And to be precise, if they were going to destroy a single universe at a time and Vados was implying instantaneous destruction of only one universe, she would have said "annihilation of the universe" instead of "annihilation of both universes".
The fact that she was so discrete about it only proves that she was referring to the instantaneous destruction of both universes as collateral damage just by the side-effects of their fight. Her statement is quite clear and I don't see how such a statement can be misinterpreted, and that too by going against Occam's razor.
That was when they were only getting started. There is a reason the fight was stopped right then and there with a huge sense of urgency before it escalated, otherwise Whis and Vados wouldn't even feel the need to intervene for another decillion years.
"It would make sense that it would destroy Universe 7 first, since that's the universe they're in and then after shattering U7's dimensional walls, then they would destroy Universe 6."
That makes absolutely no sense and was addressed in the last thread. By that logic they would destroy all 12 universes one after the other, not just 2. So if Vados was implying over time destruction, her statement would have been "annihilation of all universes". And to be precise, if they were going to destroy a single universe at a time and Vados was implying instantaneous destruction of only one universe, she would have said "annihilation of the universe" instead of "annihilation of both universes".
The fact that she was so discrete about it only proves that she was referring to the instantaneous destruction of both universes as collateral damage just by the side-effects of their fight. Her statement is quite clear and I don't see how such a statement can be misinterpreted, and that too by going against Occam's razor.
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@AKM sama
I wasn't trying to imply that it would take a decillion amount of years. What I was saying when I brought up the room is that the destruction of both universes isn't instantaneous.
Universes 6 and 7 are right next to each other so if their fighting destroys Universe 7, it can easily spill into Universe 6 and end up destroying that one too.
I wasn't trying to imply that it would take a decillion amount of years. What I was saying when I brought up the room is that the destruction of both universes isn't instantaneous.
Universes 6 and 7 are right next to each other so if their fighting destroys Universe 7, it can easily spill into Universe 6 and end up destroying that one too.
ProudLearner
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SethTheProgrammer tactic, huh!ShadowWarrior1999 said:
That's why they were stop Because their next blow would of destroy both universes. Why would the angels care if the destruction stuff was over time. Even if they destroy Goku, Vegeta, along with castle the angels could reverse time to undo it.They stop the fight because they had a reason to do it because again they would of destroy both universe.
Well it is actually . SPCell had enough energy to destroy the Solar Syste or when Vegeta threaten to destroy the Earth. When in dragon ball is stated something they mean it. That's what I mean "That How Dragon Ball Works"
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I see, then I agree with AKM Sama's proposal.
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@ProudLearner
"Why would the angels care if the destruction stuff was over time?"
Because they live in those universes and they would be destroyed in the fight. Your presumption that somehow the next blow would instantly destroy both the universes is just using the highest possible interpretation which quite frankly, is only supported by headcanon.
Comparing two completely unrelated scenarios to this fight. I shouldn't have to tell you what's wrong in doing that. Also no one is saying they wouldn't destroy both universes, what does come into the question is the timeframe in which they do it.
"Why would the angels care if the destruction stuff was over time?"
Because they live in those universes and they would be destroyed in the fight. Your presumption that somehow the next blow would instantly destroy both the universes is just using the highest possible interpretation which quite frankly, is only supported by headcanon.
Comparing two completely unrelated scenarios to this fight. I shouldn't have to tell you what's wrong in doing that. Also no one is saying they wouldn't destroy both universes, what does come into the question is the timeframe in which they do it.
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Because they live in those universes and they would be destroyed in the fight.
...How?
Your presumption that somehow the next blow would instantly destroy both the universes is just using the highest possible interpretation which quite frankly, is only supported by headcanon.
No, it's supported by Vados and Whis, the two highest authorities in the entire franchise outside of the Grand Priest, claiming that Beerus and Champa would destroy both Universe 6 and 7 if they fought seriously.
Again, Occam's Razor. You are claiming that this specific series of events will occur instead of the characters simply destroying two universes when going all out.
Let me put it this way. Goku suppressed himself against a pair of robbers to the degree that he could be tagged by and bruised by mere bullets. Does this mean Goku can not destroy the planet in his base form? How long do you think it would take for Goku to power up from being injured by bullets to blowing up the planet?
...How?
Your presumption that somehow the next blow would instantly destroy both the universes is just using the highest possible interpretation which quite frankly, is only supported by headcanon.
No, it's supported by Vados and Whis, the two highest authorities in the entire franchise outside of the Grand Priest, claiming that Beerus and Champa would destroy both Universe 6 and 7 if they fought seriously.
Again, Occam's Razor. You are claiming that this specific series of events will occur instead of the characters simply destroying two universes when going all out.
Let me put it this way. Goku suppressed himself against a pair of robbers to the degree that he could be tagged by and bruised by mere bullets. Does this mean Goku can not destroy the planet in his base form? How long do you think it would take for Goku to power up from being injured by bullets to blowing up the planet?
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I think that, if being able to handle the combined power of two Gods of Destruction is enough for a 2-C rating, then the following characters should be upgraded accordingly:
- Goku (Ultra Instinct)
- Jiren (Limit Breaker)
- Gogeta (Super Saiyan Blue)
- Angels (Whis, Vados, etc.)
- Grand Priest
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Well, I am personally fine with an upgrade, but I am likely the wrong person to ask, and somebody should preferably request input from all of the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page.
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I'm neutral on this.
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Yes I still disagree.Antvasima said:
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However, AKM's proposition is better than just making every GoD 2-C.
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AKM basically said characters who are stronger by not overwhelmingly stronger are still Low 2-C. Such as Gogeta, Jiren, Broly and Ultra Instinct Goku. Most Angels receive at At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C and it's Grand Priest and Zeno are the only ones strait up 2-C based on AKM's proposal.
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I'd argue that even if someone was arguing 2-C Beerus that only Goku, Jiren, Broly, and probably Champa would scale to it.
We know Sidra is considered a poor GoD. We know Champa is weaker than Beerus. We know that Belmod is weaker than Beerus, as Belmod vehemently believes Jiren is impossible to defeat but magazine scans claim UI Goku is comparable to Beerus and Broly constantly being stated to be the strongest foe Goku has ever faced but only safely stated to be comparable to Beerus.
We also know, based on manga, that Beerus and Quitela outshine all other destroyers, albeit manga canon but still.
So even if we argued endlessly for 2-C Beerus it would only make, at most, Champa also 2-C. So only two destroyers would be feasibly 2-C.
We know Sidra is considered a poor GoD. We know Champa is weaker than Beerus. We know that Belmod is weaker than Beerus, as Belmod vehemently believes Jiren is impossible to defeat but magazine scans claim UI Goku is comparable to Beerus and Broly constantly being stated to be the strongest foe Goku has ever faced but only safely stated to be comparable to Beerus.
We also know, based on manga, that Beerus and Quitela outshine all other destroyers, albeit manga canon but still.
So even if we argued endlessly for 2-C Beerus it would only make, at most, Champa also 2-C. So only two destroyers would be feasibly 2-C.
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Yeah Beerus seems to be on the higher end of GoDs so even if we take Beerus and maybe Champ as 2-C, literally no other GoD would scale to it unless we get more screentime with another GoD that shows them as a superior.
Plus this feat already makes Dragon Ball one the highest levels of Low 2-Cs a Low 2-C could get, along with the absolutely massive Low 2-C chain they already have. So I'm happy with the current proposal of "Anybody possibly stronger than 2 GoDs = 2-C".
Plus this feat already makes Dragon Ball one the highest levels of Low 2-Cs a Low 2-C could get, along with the absolutely massive Low 2-C chain they already have. So I'm happy with the current proposal of "Anybody possibly stronger than 2 GoDs = 2-C".
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Totally no. Let's not bring this up again. In the previous thread, it was agreed to leave Gogeta as it is.Antvasima said:
There is no proof whatsoever that Gogeta is so superior to UI Blanco Goku (to the point of being a different tiering) aside from the "multipliers" stuff that I think should be just ignored, as others mods said.
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I personally agree with this, and it also goes against the concept of always taking the lowball in unknown / unspecific situations, but whatever, seems like it has already been decided by the majority here what to do (with a lot of unnecessary talk about Occam's Razor, kinda ironic considering this discussion truly started after people started overthinking this and dumping Matt's simplistic "They are two gods, they destroy one verse each other.". Yeah, no "Occam's Razor" in this case, you can easily guess why)ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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What multipliers? It's basic stomp scaling.
Goku scales to being comparable to Beerus (possibly stronger) in raw AP. Broly scales to being comparable to Beerus (possibly) stronger in raw AP.
Gogeta Blue casually, and effortlessly, stomped Broly.
Gogeta Blue >> UI Goku = FPSS Broly >/= Beerus
The only arguments I've seen against this was power level scaling where it was literally argued that since Vegeta stomped Dodoria with 1.1x Power Level that it means Gogeta can only be 1.1x Broly or some stupid garbage.
Realistically speaking, the gap is considerably close to 2x at the minimum. So having Gogeta and the Angels at Low 2-C, Likely 2-C for stomping Beerus-tiers easily is completely and utterly reasonable.
So unless there is an actual argument against this, I don't see why Gogeta and the Angels wouldn't be Likely 2-C for stomping Beerus-tiers.
Goku scales to being comparable to Beerus (possibly stronger) in raw AP. Broly scales to being comparable to Beerus (possibly) stronger in raw AP.
Gogeta Blue casually, and effortlessly, stomped Broly.
Gogeta Blue >> UI Goku = FPSS Broly >/= Beerus
The only arguments I've seen against this was power level scaling where it was literally argued that since Vegeta stomped Dodoria with 1.1x Power Level that it means Gogeta can only be 1.1x Broly or some stupid garbage.
Realistically speaking, the gap is considerably close to 2x at the minimum. So having Gogeta and the Angels at Low 2-C, Likely 2-C for stomping Beerus-tiers easily is completely and utterly reasonable.
So unless there is an actual argument against this, I don't see why Gogeta and the Angels wouldn't be Likely 2-C for stomping Beerus-tiers.
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We do not "always take the lowball" in an unspecific situation, making more sense trumps being the lower interpretation any day
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Gogeta stomped Broly. What about it? Goku UI Blanco stomped Jiren. Do you want to upgrade that one as well?
Stomping is at least 2X? And who decided that? You?
Unless proven countrary, there is no reason to think is a 2X. For me it's a 1,1X, and I don't even need to bring up the manga to say this. I think a 1,1X, Broly doesn't get oneshot by a single Gogeta kick or something. This just cannot be proven, applying multipliers to this stuff is stupid.
Stomping doesn't mean anything without feats, it's just pure and baseless speculation (and wanking). Stomping someone else =/= Automatically upgrading to another tier.
Stomping is at least 2X? And who decided that? You?
Unless proven countrary, there is no reason to think is a 2X. For me it's a 1,1X, and I don't even need to bring up the manga to say this. I think a 1,1X, Broly doesn't get oneshot by a single Gogeta kick or something. This just cannot be proven, applying multipliers to this stuff is stupid.
Stomping doesn't mean anything without feats, it's just pure and baseless speculation (and wanking). Stomping someone else =/= Automatically upgrading to another tier.
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Gogeta stomped Broly. What about it? Goku UI Blanco stomped Jiren. Do you want to upgrade that one as well?
UI has Instinctive Reactions. If Goku and Jiren were completely equal in AP, Goku would stomp Jiren due to UI's abilities.
Stomping is at least 2X? And who decided that? You?
...No? I said 'Likely 2-C'. If I were claiming Gogeta is 2x Beerus then I would be saying straight up 2-C. The claim is that Gogeta casually AP stomps Broly, who is Beerus-level. So Gogeta is likely 2-C.
For me it's a 1,1X, and I don't even need to bring up the manga to say this. I think a 1,1X, Broly doesn't get oneshot by a single Gogeta kick or something. This just cannot be proven, applying multipliers to this stuff is stupid.
You are literally bringing up multipliers right now. The only multipliers I ever brought up was the Kaio-Ken in the last thread. Hell, I even said in my post, the one you just replied to, that it isn't even based on multipliers. It's pure scaling.
Stomping doesn't mean anything without feats
...Did you seriously just say stomping isn't a feat?
it's just pure and baseless speculation (and wanking).
You're trolling. You're literally claiming that a canonical, brutal, curbstomp by someone fighting casually is 'baseless speculation (and wanking)'.
Seriously. Does anyone have any actual arguments against Likely 2-C Gogeta? Or is it just...this?
UI has Instinctive Reactions. If Goku and Jiren were completely equal in AP, Goku would stomp Jiren due to UI's abilities.
Stomping is at least 2X? And who decided that? You?
...No? I said 'Likely 2-C'. If I were claiming Gogeta is 2x Beerus then I would be saying straight up 2-C. The claim is that Gogeta casually AP stomps Broly, who is Beerus-level. So Gogeta is likely 2-C.
For me it's a 1,1X, and I don't even need to bring up the manga to say this. I think a 1,1X, Broly doesn't get oneshot by a single Gogeta kick or something. This just cannot be proven, applying multipliers to this stuff is stupid.
You are literally bringing up multipliers right now. The only multipliers I ever brought up was the Kaio-Ken in the last thread. Hell, I even said in my post, the one you just replied to, that it isn't even based on multipliers. It's pure scaling.
Stomping doesn't mean anything without feats
...Did you seriously just say stomping isn't a feat?
it's just pure and baseless speculation (and wanking).
You're trolling. You're literally claiming that a canonical, brutal, curbstomp by someone fighting casually is 'baseless speculation (and wanking)'.
Seriously. Does anyone have any actual arguments against Likely 2-C Gogeta? Or is it just...this?
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I'm bringing up the 1,1X multipliers EXACTLY because I want to show that it makes no sense whatsoever to apply multipliers to a stomp... And especially a Dragon Ball stomp.
You say it's a 2X, and I say 1,1X. Prove me wrong. You would say it isn't enough, I would reply it's more than enough for a stomp.
It just can't be done, applying a "it has to be at least a 2X" is nonsensical. That's a completly arbitrary number. As much as 1,1X
Also, yes, I claim that Gogeta's stomp is nothing special.
Vegito DBZ and Buuhan are 4-B. Vegito didn't get upgraded just for the sake of "he stomped a 4-B so he should be at least a 4-A"
Stomping in itself isn't a feat worth for upgrading a character from Universal+ to Multiversal level. If that was be case, for every "stomp" happened in the series, 2-C would have been reached a long time ago.
You say it's a 2X, and I say 1,1X. Prove me wrong. You would say it isn't enough, I would reply it's more than enough for a stomp.
It just can't be done, applying a "it has to be at least a 2X" is nonsensical. That's a completly arbitrary number. As much as 1,1X
Also, yes, I claim that Gogeta's stomp is nothing special.
Vegito DBZ and Buuhan are 4-B. Vegito didn't get upgraded just for the sake of "he stomped a 4-B so he should be at least a 4-A"
Stomping in itself isn't a feat worth for upgrading a character from Universal+ to Multiversal level. If that was be case, for every "stomp" happened in the series, 2-C would have been reached a long time ago.
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Buu would have to be millions to billion of times stronger than Cell to be 4-A instead of a mere two times so I don't think that's a good comparison
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Point is, you just don't upgrade a character on stuff like "stomping". It's too arbitrary.Andytrenom said:
Here what's being proposed is upgrading Gogeta SOLELY on a unknown "stomp multiplier" (that, for whatever reason, doesn't apply to UI Goku as well, apparently that few seconds aren't considered stomp because reasons, probably the single punch, but Jiren was immensely above Beerus at that point) a stomp multiplier that MAYBE equals what Champa and Beerus were doing in their fight when they were destroying Universe 6 and 7 PROBABLY at the same time.
Seriously. And then people tell me about Occam's Razor. Give me a break.
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You say it's a 2X,
No, I don't. All I've said is that Gogeta casually stomped a Beerus-level person. So he is likely close to 2-C at a minimum. Again, Gogeta was holding back. The novel and movie make this explicitly clear.
Prove me wrong.
No I can't prove an opinio wrong. Actually provide an argument for why a stomp would require such a low AP advantage.
It just can't be done, applying a "it has to be at least a 2X" is nonsensical. That's a completly arbitrary number.
What are you even talking about? It's LIKELY 2-C. Meaning the claim is that it is LIKELY that Gogeta is 2x Beerus due to scaling from curbstomping Broly casually.
Vegito DBZ and Buuhan are 4-B. Vegito didn't get upgraded just for the sake of "he stomped a 4-B so he should be at least a 4-A"
The gap in AP for 4-B vs 4-A is hundreds of millions of times. We are dealing with a set figure of a 2x difference for a tier in this context based on a curbstomp.
Stomping in itself isn't a feat worth for upgrading a character from Universal+ to Multiversal level. If that was be case, for every "stomp" happened in the series, 2-C would have been reached a long time ago.
Not even bloody remotely. 2-C is an unquantifiable gap from Low 2-C. It's merely agreed that Beerus and Champa are at the absolute highend of Low 2-C and that anyone 2x them would be 2-C.
I'm not even bothering with this argument any longer. If you are going to continue posting these subjective, opinionated, responses then it is clear that you care very little for objectivity or coming to an actual proper understanding of the arguments being made.
No, I don't. All I've said is that Gogeta casually stomped a Beerus-level person. So he is likely close to 2-C at a minimum. Again, Gogeta was holding back. The novel and movie make this explicitly clear.
Prove me wrong.
No I can't prove an opinio wrong. Actually provide an argument for why a stomp would require such a low AP advantage.
It just can't be done, applying a "it has to be at least a 2X" is nonsensical. That's a completly arbitrary number.
What are you even talking about? It's LIKELY 2-C. Meaning the claim is that it is LIKELY that Gogeta is 2x Beerus due to scaling from curbstomping Broly casually.
Vegito DBZ and Buuhan are 4-B. Vegito didn't get upgraded just for the sake of "he stomped a 4-B so he should be at least a 4-A"
The gap in AP for 4-B vs 4-A is hundreds of millions of times. We are dealing with a set figure of a 2x difference for a tier in this context based on a curbstomp.
Stomping in itself isn't a feat worth for upgrading a character from Universal+ to Multiversal level. If that was be case, for every "stomp" happened in the series, 2-C would have been reached a long time ago.
Not even bloody remotely. 2-C is an unquantifiable gap from Low 2-C. It's merely agreed that Beerus and Champa are at the absolute highend of Low 2-C and that anyone 2x them would be 2-C.
I'm not even bothering with this argument any longer. If you are going to continue posting these subjective, opinionated, responses then it is clear that you care very little for objectivity or coming to an actual proper understanding of the arguments being made.
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> What are you even talking about? It's LIKELY 2-C. Meaning the claim is that it is LIKELY that Gogeta is 2x Beerus due to scaling from curbstomping Broly casually.
Likely defined by who? To me, he doesn't even get close. And again, this cannot be proven by either parts.
Again, this is all arbitrary stuff. No reason to even put a "maybe possibly i hope 2-C Gogeta"
Likely defined by who? To me, he doesn't even get close. And again, this cannot be proven by either parts.
Again, this is all arbitrary stuff. No reason to even put a "maybe possibly i hope 2-C Gogeta"
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I still don't see any reason why those on UI Goku level or above aren't seen as 2-C though ?
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