Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision (Continued)

[AKM sama]

That just means Beerus is stronger than Champa, and a stronger Low 2-C. Just like Jiren, UI Goku and probably Broly. That isn't a valid reason for getting an "At least", as that would indicate he might be higher with 0 evidence to support the claim. The same logic applies to current SSG Goku and Vegeta and they aren't rated as "At least 3-A".

He is just a very high Low 2-C. That's all.

The probability of the stat in case of 'likely' rating is more than 'possibly'.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM.

So should the revision look like this?

The angels and the Grand Priest: 2-C

Gogeta: At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C

The Gods of Destruction: They remain Low 2-C

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, that's good. Any threads or argument regarding GoD scaling or Goku, Jiren and Broly scaling can wait until this is agreed on. Hopefully enough people agree with the suggested upgrade by Antvasima so this can end.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The probability of the stat in case of 'likely' rating is more than 'possibly'.

Alright, thanks. So arguments could be made for Possibly 2-C Beerus, Jiren, Goku and Broly due to all of them scaling above Champa? That's something that somewhat confuses me actually. Is it 2x Beerus or 2x Champa that would be 2-C? We know Beerus + Champa = 2-C so I'm curious if 2x someone weaker than Beerus would be 2-C or just 2x Beerus.

I guess we can't really gauge how much Champa would contribute to the 2-C feat but it does seem heavily implied that Champa contributes at least a huge amount of his own power to destroying Universe 6 and 7.

 

[AKM sama]

Grand Priest: 2-C (Whis stated that the Grand Priest's power far outclassed his own. He's also said to be among the top 5 strongest beings in the Dragon Ball Multiverse. Also warped and changed the color of the whole World of Void, a dimension of infinite size, with a wave of his hand)

Whis and Angels: Likely 2-C (Should be more powerful than Beerus and Champa combined. He can casually knock Beerus out with a single blow)

SSB Gogeta: At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Defeated Super Saiyan Broly (Full Power) with relative ease, who was stated by Goku to 'probably' be stronger than Beerus)


No tier changes for GoDs, UI Goku, Jiren and Broly. They'll just become a higher level of Low 2-C with the following justification:

Beerus and Champa (Other GoDs would scale): Low 2-C (A fight between two Gods of Destruction can result in the destruction of two universes)

The rest of the justification will stay as it supports their rating. The statement about Broly 'probably' being stronger than Beerus will be added to Broly's justification. The rest don't require any changes.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine with the exception that the angels should probably be stated to be stronger than Beerus and Champa combined, to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[AKM sama]

Updated.

 

[Stefano4444]

Personally i think GoDs, UI Goku, Jiren and Broly should be At least Low 2-C.

Due of the fact that Beerus and Champa's combining power can perform a 2-C feat, it would make them one of the strongest Low 2-C characters in the wiki, especially considering the fact that the destruction of both universes would had be a side effect of Beerus and Champa's fight.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Wait but if they are stated to be stronger than Beerus and Champa combined, isn't that the literal definition of scaling to 2-C in the context of everything argued in this thread?

Making a statement like that as justification would make them outright 2-C, not Likely.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM

Thank you. I think that it should be fine to apply now.

 

[AKM sama]

See the justification. They 'should' (it still leaves something in the air) be stronger than Beerus and Champa combined based on the fact that Whis can casually knock Beerus out with a single blow. Hence 'likely'.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Eh, well okay. I guess that's alright then.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I suppose that is probably fine.

 

[KingPin0422]

I also agree with AKM's proposed tiering.

 

[Jasonsith]

Grand Priest: 2-C (Whis stated that the Grand Priest's power far outclassed his own. He's also said to be among the top 5 strongest beings in the Dragon Ball Multiverse. Also warped and changed the color of the whole World of Void, a dimension of infinite size, with a wave of his hand)

Whis and Angels: Likely 2-C (Should be more powerful than Beerus and Champa combined. He can casually knock Beerus out with a single blow)

SSB Gogeta: At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Defeated Super Saiyan Broly (Full Power) with relative ease, who was stated by Goku to 'probably' be stronger than Beerus)


No tier changes for GoDs, UI Goku, Jiren and Broly. They'll just become a higher level of Low 2-C with the following justification:

Beerus and Champa (Other GoDs would scale): Low 2-C (A fight between two Gods of Destruction can result in the destruction of two universes)

The rest of the justification will stay as it supports their rating. The statement about Broly 'probably' being stronger than Beerus will be added to Broly's justification. The rest don't require any changes.

And would UI Goku and Jire also be "at least low 2-C likely 2-C"?

Or just SSB Gogeta?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

And would UI Goku and Jire also be "at least low 2-C likely 2-C"?
Or just SSB Gogeta?

Just SSB Gogeta. UI Goku and Jiren are still just Low 2-C but they'll be considered to be much further into it than they are now.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

All we know is that UI Goku is comparable to Beerus based on a magazine scan (which was unfortunately mistranslated and lead people to believe UIO3 Goku was comparable). So UI Goku can't be possibly 2-C based on what we know, let alone likely. The same can be said for Broly. Jiren is likely more powerful than Goku but evidently isn't much stronger so he wouldn't be possibly 2-C either.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

AKM Sama's proposal also sounds great to me as mentioned above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't like 2-C Gogeta but the rest of AKM's proposal is fine.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm confused, and the thread is quite long. What are the 2-C feats performed outside of Zeno's erase?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Beerus and Champa clashing to destroy two universes.

 

[Kepekley23]

The idea that Beerus is significantly stronger than the other Destroyers is ridiculous; he was just using Ultra Instinct on that exhibiton match in the manga, and the anime (which are both separate canons, so you can't lump them together) never portrays him as significantly stronger than the Destroyers. Belmod and Quitela are both shown to be comparable to him.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Beerus and Champa clashing to destroy two universes.

I'm pretty sure it was stated that they themselves would die if this were to occur. How do they scale indivudually to 2-C if neither can perform the feat on their own or survive the potential joint feat?

 

[AKM sama]

It wasn't stated that they would die. And they don't scale to 2-C because it's a joint feat, not an individual one.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The idea that Beerus is significantly stronger than the other Destroyers is ridiculous; he was just using Ultra Instinct on that exhibiton match in the manga, and the anime (which are both separate canons, so you can't lump them together) never portrays him as significantly stronger than
the Destroyers. Belmod and Quitela are both shown to be comparable to him.

Again. Belmod considered Jiren to be unbeatable before Jiren broke his limits. We even had Whis comparing Jiren's strength to a God of Destruction (when Jiren was facing Goku's Spirit Bomb). We also have no reason to believe that GoD Toppo was even remotely comparable to other GoDs like Beerus.

Yet we have magazine scans claiming UI Goku is 'possibly stronger' than Beerus and we have Goku comparing Broly to Beerus, when we also have countless claims that Broly is the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought and Frieza claiming that 'no one in existence' can defeat Broly (albeit, SS Broly but still worth noting).

It's quite clear that there is a variance of power when comparing GoDs and the only GoDs we know that can perform 2-C feats are Beerus and Champa. Scaling all GoDs to their level is ridiculous and based on zero evidence.

If you claim that they scale to the same level or around the same level, then that scales Broly, Gogeta, UI Goku and LB Jiren to all 2-C, considering Jiren was already compared to a God of Destruction before he broke his limits and Belmod himself spread the rumor that Jiren was a mortal that not even a God of Destruction can defeat.

So, what is it? Are several characters 2-C, with a dozen more (Angels) being 2-C? Or do the GoDs vary in power? (rational and logical outcome with actual evidence by comparing what data we have).

 

[AKM sama]

Actually none of that proves that Beerus is "significantly" stronger than the other GoDs. There isn't remotely any evidence to be making that claim. The inter-GoDs scaling is largely left unknown in the show.

Can we just close this thread? It's been concluded and I'll make the changes in the next 24 hours.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Except, again, there is no evidence that the other GoDs scale to Beerus and Champa's 2-C feat. So scaling other GoDs to that level has zero basis and zero evidence.

Like, for example. Jiren against KKX20 Goku was deemed as having strength comparable to a God of Destruction, by Whis, and Belmod, a God of Destruction, deemed Jiren to be unbeatable.

Does this mean anyone scaling above UIO1 Goku is liable for 2-C, due to UIO1 Goku matching a suppressed Jiren, who was compared to the level of a God of Destruction? If that's the case, Post-UIO2 Goku Blue would scale to possibly 2-C which raises all kinds of illogical claims when we go into the fact that Broly was compared to Beerus in strength.

So:

• all GoDs scale to comparable strength

• But Jiren's suppressed strength was compared to a God of Destruction

• But Post-UIO2 Goku Blue is stronger than that, pushing Jiren harder than UIO1 Goku. Meaning Post-ToP Goku Blue would be at least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C

• But Broly is vastly more powerful than that and was compared to Beerus as 'possibly' surpassing him

It comes to a circular reasoning where Beerus is still stronger than any other GoD based on scaling and statements present within the show itself. Claiming the GoDs are all comparable completely and utterly destroys the scaling chain and has no basis!

Genuinely, honest to god. It makes zero sense, at all, to scale all GoDs to Beerus and Champa level.

 

[Antvasima]

We won't scale the GoDs to 2-C. Only the angels, the Grand Priest, and possibly Gogeta.

We should preferably close this, yes.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Not arguing that. I'm claiming the GoDs scaling to all being comparable results in circular scaling where Beerus ends up being vastly superior to 2-C and the other GoDs being vastly weaker than him.

I just find the entire concept of GoDs all being comparable, with no evidence or scaling to claim it, to be unreasonable. I agree this should be closed, considering no one seems to be arguing against the tiering changes (except Matthew disagreeing with Possibly 2-C Gogeta but that was a statement with no arguments so...)

At most, the only thing this thread could possibly derive while remaining on topic is my disagreement with GoDs being treated as all comparable but that's relatively minor of a gripe, considering no one really cares about the other GoDs.

 

[Antvasima]

What, specifically, do you wish to change in the descriptions?

 

[AKM sama]

Whis's statement was meant for an estimate of Jiren's true strength, not the strength he was using against UIO1. The context was that even suppressed Jiren was hardly breaking a sweat against Goku and If you just pay attention to the dialogues:

Whis: "Jiren appears to be far from full power."

Shin: "He's strong. Plain and Simple."

Whis: "I daresay...like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. It appears the rumor is true."

Whis is estimating Jiren's true strength based on how much he is holding back. Obviously, there are GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta who are lower on the GoD scale. UI Goku and Jiren seem to be higher on the GoD scale.

But none of what you said implies that Beerus is "significantly" stronger than most GoDs. Even if suppressed Jiren was compared to GoD level, he would've been on the lower scale. Again, we don't know the inter-GoD scaling, but most of them seem to be comparable to each other and their power shouldn't vary "significantly".

In fact, there is a good chance that Beerus might not even be the strongest GoD, we just don't know.

 

[Antvasima]

In the manga supervised by Toriyama Beerus and Quitela were actually shown as the strongest GoDs.

 

[AKM sama]

Manga continuity is different, and Beerus was using UI.

Anyway, should we close this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes. I will do so.