Kingdom Hearts III & Knuckles: The Ultima Werse additions

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

All the previous threads in a super nutshell:

- Durability Negation for all Thunder-sort of spells, as we get to know the voltage of them:

Read the last part

- True Kingdom Hearts and the true x-Blade are "At least 3-A, likely 2-C" via Xehanort´s statements regarding its power (he wanted to rewrite the universe), but the cosmology of the verse, the constant dimensional travel, his act of merging his past selves into himself and most notably Kingdom Hearts explicitly being stated to contain alll existances of the KH multiverse according to the Ultimania Entry, it easily points out to the before-mentioned rating for such, and of course Xehanort scaling while wielding it.(subject to change via debate, then again)

Sora, Donald and Goofy scale via being able to keep up with him while wielding those two at once against them while being enhanced by the "Power of Friendship", which is an actual force.

And by extension, Riku, King Mickey, Kairi, Axel/Lea, Aqua, Ventus, Terra, Roxas, Xio, Xemnas, Ansem, Young Xehanort, Vanitas, Terranort, Sa├»x, Xigbar, Marluxia, Larxene, Luxord, Meow Wow (As Sora can summon him in KHIII) and Repliku (if he even has a page) scale to them as they were in the final fight involving it.

- The way the keys will be sorted is also pending proper discussion, by the way, but the previous thread has provided a decent amount of options to choose from (particularly the last ones) Thoughts?

CrimsonStarFallen · May 5, 2019

In not sure about 2-C, ano definetly not sure about all those people scaling, expecially since nothing indicates Sora was fully enhanced by the power of friendship while fighting in the maze.

Lightning negating dura is fine.

A key expecifically for KH3 for Sora is fine.

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

The maze was a bit after Kairi resurrected everyone, so it can be considered as an indication for such.

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

2-C is iffy at best... Possible based on hte different worldlines being their own timelines, but iffy because you have to prove that the KH remaking would affect the other worldlines.

IF we scale the KH3 Graveyard contenstants to 3-A... I still firmly believe the Fortellers (and by virtue the Protagonist from Union Cross) should scale by virtue of Ephemer and the Dandelion's assistance against the Giant Demon Tide (I'm sorry to annoy people with this question ... But considering Ephemer's involvement there is a way to scale them without waiting for the Fortellers to show up later on)... Or if they are changed we change the justification to have them scale to the KH3 cast

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

Still don't agree with 2-C. 3-A is a yes, 2-C is still a no for me.

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

Kingdom Hearts contains the existance of all worlds, which has been argued to be separate universes, leading that it logically is also able to affect other timelines if accepted as such, also including the other reasons in the OP.

KHIII Graveyard guys scaling is fine, but the justification for the profiles likely would be a bit different in their case.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

Can you post the exact quote as what I see is that KH simply contains all the hearts of the worlds....which wouldn't be 2-C.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

Also Worlds have not been argued to be universes. Worlds are planets....Like I am pretty sure even KH3 says as such.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

Worlds in the realm of light and the realm between exist as planets in a great sea of stars, which Sora and his friends explore aboard their smile-powered gummi ship.
	~ Kingdom Hearts lll Glossary

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

Dragonmasterxyz said:
Can you post the exact quote as what I see is that KH simply contains all the hearts of the worlds....which wouldn't be 2-C.

"Hearts

In the world of Kingdom Hearts, not restricted to just people and animals, but every existence contains a heart. The collection of all kinds of hearts would become the great heart ― Kingdom Hearts."

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

Dragonmasterxyz said:
Worlds in the realm of light and the realm between exist as planets in a great sea of stars, which Sora and his friends explore aboard their smile-powered gummi ship.

~ Kingdom Hearts lll Glossary

Focus on the "exist as".

That means they are just representations of such universes in another place, which is pretty consistent, as having actual planets like this is just absurd and extremely inconsistent otherwise:

Oh yeah, the Twilight Tower is as big as the entire "world"

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

Wait... So are you saying it is fine to scale the Protagonist and Fortellers to the KH3 Keyblade Graveyard Combatants... Or not ?

Also wouldn't the fact that the main story of Union Cross is about Lux weaponizing the power of the future (which they show by using KH3 Kairi , Riku , Xehanort , and Sora in the new updates to support ), which as of KH3 the Protagonists are able to use their power help in scaling them to the KH3 Cast. They mention the above explicitly within the lore of the game, so it isn't like I'm exaggerating it.

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Wait... So are you saying it is fine to scale the Protagonist and Fortellers to the KH3 Keyblade Graveyard Combatants... Or not ?
Also wouldn't the fact that the main story of Union Cross is about Lux weaponizing the power of the future (which they show by using KH3 Kairi , Riku , Xehanort , and Sora in the new updates to support ), which as of KH3 the Protagonists are able to use their power help in scaling them to the KH3 Cast. They mention the above explicitly within the lore of the game, so it isn't like I'm exaggerating it.

I don´t know, maybe if you explained more into how they would scale, as it can easily have been a plot hole on purpose (The series does this a lot) when regarding the Keyblade Graveyard´s keyblades helping Sora.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

How do you even......

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

What?

It´s saying that they exist as such in there, not actually being such in the way you are likely thinking.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

1) The Planets are clearly stylized. Common sense would dictate that Twilight Town is not the only part of that world, just the part that's important to the plot.

2) "That means they are just representations of such universes in another place, which is pretty consistent"

What circle of Hell did you pull this from?

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

Also, not exactly understanding how the knowing the voltage means Thunder spells negate durability.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Again the only part that really bothers me for the 2-C thing is about the RoD which the equal realm to the RoL and exist both independantly and with the Rol (though it's more independant). With that said, KH is at least 3-A for sure, now a "At least 3-A, possibly 2-C" would be more accurate since it's more "vague" even if it can lead to Low Multiverse feat.

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

Wouldn't it be safer for Low 2-C instead ?

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Low 2-C could correspond to. From what we know, nothing says that KH was about to affect space-time and recreate time itself. It was likely going to erase the worlds on a matter/physical scale but time itself wouldn' have been affeced. The real problem is that KH can affect other realms that the realm of light but the only realm that is really comparable to the Realm of Light is the Realm of Drakness.

Matthew_Schroeder · May 5, 2019

3-A is fine not 2-C

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

3-A is what I'd prefer unti more concrete stuff comes out for higher ... Which knowing Kingdom Hearts and what Union Chi is implying for it's storyline may not be too far away from now.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

I agree. Maybe "At least 3-A, possibly/likely higher" but still 3-A.

HST_Master · May 5, 2019

I'm against anything tier 2 for now. 3-A is fine. Also I don't see how that coumts as Dura Neg regarding Thunder? It's specifically the weakness for Marine Rumbas.

I'm just waiting for the abilities in the previous thread and AP to be applied honestly.

As for Keys a Pre Kingdom Hearts 3| Kingdom Hearts 3 is fine for me. Most Characters don't go through any major power increase or change besides abilities until 3.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Don't really know neither. But like you says, i think we should wait for more precisions. Besides, there are also more abilities to be added for some characters (Immortality is already precised in the case of Sora though).

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

Is the Ephemer / Giant Demon Tide thing that happened in KH3 scalable to the Fortellers and by extension the Protagonist from Union Cross ? There really isn't anything contradicting it because no matter which interpretation of the event you chose of who actually helped summoned the keyblades ... The Protagonist and the Fortellers should be stronger than whomever orchestrated it (whether it be the Leaders... Who are actually while gifted not too much stronger than the regular Dandelions, or Ephemer... Who at best is somewhat comparable with the Protagonist based on canonical portrayal)

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Ephemer was the one who summoned the Keyblades and hellped Sora and co. And yes i think the Demon Tide should scale although it should be slightly weaker but still comparable. Funny that a "random" enemy like that one-shots everyone and that Xehanort with the X-Blade cannot kill Sora and two of his friends like that (aside from the final beam of darkness that needed resurrection).

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

... I thought so... Since the Leaders doing it makes no sense since most of them are out of comission but Ephemer, whose the only one not dead or unable to do the feat ... But I don't think my question was understood:

Would it be possible to scale Ephemer to the KH3 Cast by performing the aforementioned feat of the keyblade summoning feat that helped Sora defeat the Giant Demon Tide... and then Ephemer from said feat to the Protagonist and Fortellers... Since through canonical portrayals he's likely far weaker than the Fortellers or the Protagonist from Union Cross

HST_Master · May 5, 2019

I mean I don't see the problem with the unions getting Unknown, possibly 3-A coming from the Demon Tide.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Oh ok, i didn't understand sorry.

I don't think so. Ephemer is weaker than the Foretellers (who are themselves weaker than the Master of Masters but that's a different story) but he still has enough power to summon all that Keyblades to help Sora. Everyone was one-shoted by the Tide and they wall lost before Ephemer acted. So Ephemer is likely more powerful. That or he channeled to spirits of all the Keyblade masters but in any case, Sora needed that kind of help. For Ephemer though, he can still scale to the Protagonist and the Foretellers since the difference between them are not as big as it appears to be between Ephemer and KH 3 cast.

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

No problem.

Seems concrete enough... But I'd need more input... So... If we go this route:

Master of Masters>>Fortellers>>Protagonist>=Ephemer>>>> KH3 Keyblade Graveyard Cast. Makes sense to a certain extent. The Darklings (whenever we make their profiles) would scale as well considering their threat to Ephemer and the Protagonist during the later story arcs of Union Cross.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

The Master is likely the stronger god tier of KH aside KH and the X-Blade. For the rest, it's basically this yeah.

I don't know if the Darklings will have profiles. For now, the main subject is KH 3's Tier and editing so we'll likely have to wait for the rest. But from what we know, they scale at least to a certain extent.

Imaginym · May 5, 2019

Bobsican said:
The maze was a bit after Kairi resurrected everyone, so it can be considered as an indication for such.

Pretty sure Kairi wasn't the one who resurrected them, going by Ultimania. Kairi is only known to be responsible for Sora, or else the other characters would've ended up in The Final World as well, for one.

Sora recovered their Hearts, & they returned to their bodies, but IIRC, it was the abuse of the Power of Waking backfiring to rewrite reality that caused them to start the battle anew.

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · May 5, 2019

Alright then. That definitely is likely... Although the real difference between them isn't well defined enough to tell how much stronger the MoM is in comparison to the Fortellers

True... Until perhaps more is known, it's best not to make a profile for them.

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

It's not really shown since the Master has never been shown fighting. From what we know, he can create Dream Eaters, can make Keyblades from the hearts of people and is HIGHLY implied to bee the creator of the first Keyblades (aside from the X-Blade of course). And since he is shown in the Yozora Ending, he could really be truly immortal. That and the fact his apprentices just regard him as their superior and that he likely is capable of everything they are. Same case, we'll have to wait to see feats from him.

We can make them after editing thing. Also maybe for some Disney characters profiles.

Bobsican · May 5, 2019

Dragonmasterxyz said:
1) The Planets are clearly stylized. Common sense would dictate that Twilight Town is not the only part of that world, just the part that's important to the plot.
2) "That means they are just representations of such universes in another place, which is pretty consistent"

What circle of Hell did you pull this from?

1: But having the whole "world" representing it in a simplified cartoonish way? I don´t think so.

Another example: Oh yeah, we have a kraken the size of the freaking planet on a skull with absolutely no water! And that´s leaving at a side the other stuff...

2: I think I found something like that somewhere, but I´ll check later.

As for the electricity negating dura part:

ArkhamDC06 · May 5, 2019

Seems good to me.

Dragonmasterxyz · May 5, 2019

I guess we'll BS anything to push a narrative huh...

"But having the whole "world" representing it in a simplified cartoonish way? I don´t think so."

Uh, yes it would. They aren't going to name every world "Planet Earth", no, they are stylizing the world to represent the part of it you are going to. In reality, the world is not shaped like that. Use some common sense here.

"Another example: Oh yeah, we have a kraken the size of the freaking planet on a skull with absolutely no water! And that´s leaving at a side the other stuff..."

Way to prove my point. This blatantly shows that what we see is a mere stylization and not what the actual world looks like. This shape is merely a way to let us know that the area we are going to is the Caribbean. Not that the Caribbean is all that exists. The fact that there is a Caribbean proves this and the movie this world is based on proves this.

"Use it to give the a thousand-volt jolt!"

The fact that we are using an obvious pun and considering the nature of the Journal being very tongue and cheek (along with it not being scientific in the slightest)....this is extremely doubtful. Matter of fact I am against it completely. So yeah this is a no for me.

"In the world of Kingdom Hearts, not restricted to just people and animals, but every existence contains a heart. The collection of all kinds of hearts would become the great heart ― Kingdom Hearts."

Doesn't disprove my point whatsoever.

Basically:

Yes to 3-A

No to 2-C

No to Durability Negating Thunder.

Axl233 · May 5, 2019

Wasnt the argument about kingdom hearts being 2C was being able to create other universes like the realm of darkness,realm of light and realm of dreams?

The_real_cal_howard · May 5, 2019

Pretty much agree with Dragon. Hard no to durability negating lighting. No to 2-C as well. 3-A is blatant though so yeah.

Also pretty sure this means that the High 4-Cs that arent 3-A would go back to 5-A with that planet confirmation thing.

Kingdom Hearts III & Knuckles: The Ultima Werse additions

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