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The Legendary Devil Hunter Vs Local deadweght literally too angry to let his father die

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Lightning_XXI

Lightning_XXI

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It's time

Post Sin Dante, from Devil May Cry 5 faces his deadweight nephew, but this time is serious

- Both 3-A


- Fight starts with 60 meters between them


- Both serious to kill, but in character

Dante: 6

Deadweight: 0

Inconclusive: 1
 
Gonna be honest, I'd have to give a slight edge to Dante. Yes, I know this has been said over and over again, but it's still true that Vergil was exhausted when Nero fought him, and it's been explicitly shown throughout the series that being out of stamina is extremely detrimental. I'm still almost certain Nero would still be 3-A, but probably on a much lower end. On top of that, with a couple of small exceptions, Nero's abilities don't really help him all that much compared to Dante. Gonna have to do 1 vote for Dante, perhaps... mid to high difficulty?
 
Out of curiosity, what is Table Hopper considered? Is it just Nero physically moving or is it considered to be space-time manipulation? In his DT it's rather similar to Vergil's teleportation.
 
I think the standard would be eight Devil Breakers, 1 of each DB

But I don't it will help Nero since Dante resists Time Manip
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Out of curiosity, what is Table Hopper considered? Is it just Nero physically moving or is it considered to be space-time manipulation? In his DT it's rather similar to Vergil's teleportation.
Click to expand...
Nero doesn't have the Yamato in 5
 
What's Dante's Time Manipulation resist feat? Also, would gameplay feats count here? I mean, Nero's Punch Line can track Furies when they are teleporting through space-time.
 
Dante absorbed the Devil Sword Sparda, which scales to Sparda, a former Mundus General and all of them showcased Resistance to Time Stop, also, as a demon, Dante is resistant to the Beastheads powers, one of them being Time Manipulation

However, he can Time Hax people resistant to it, like SDT slowing down Vergil

Doesn't matter since Dante can also track Furies even in cutscenes
 
Okay, what's the time manipulation resistance feat done by Mundus Generals?

Dante tracking Furies doesn't really make the feat worthless. The Furies would literally be moving instantly through space, as they are teleporting, but the Punch Line can track them. This means Punch Line may be capable of tracking people that teleport.

Punch Line also works perfectly fine on every enemy in the game, including Vergil. So would that mean it shouldn't be treated as a normal rocket? If it can track teleporters and is fast enough to hit every enemy in the game then, if said game feats are applicable for scaling, this means Nero has access to a Devil Breaker that can harass Dante continously.

To add further, there is no denying that DT Nero is far stronger than DT Dante so I'd imagine Dante would need to use SDT to seriously put DT Nero down. So would Dante lack his health Regenerationn in SDT in VS Battles threads? If so, Nero has much more raw power than DT Dante and would have Regenerationn over SDT Dante.
 
Okay, what's the time manipulation resistance feat done by Mundus Generals?

They resist Time Stop, the bangle doesn't work on them

Dante tracking Furies doesn't really make the feat worthless. The Furies would literally be moving instantly through space, as they are teleporting, but the Punch Line can track them. This means Punch Line may be capable of tracking people that teleport.

Devil Hunter is the canon diff, Nero fight Furies in this ?

Punch Line also works perfectly fine on every enemy in the game, including Vergil. So would that mean it shouldn't be treated as a normal rocket? If it can track teleporters and is fast enough to hit every enemy in the game then, if said game feats are applicable for scaling, this means Nero has access to a Devil Breaker that can harass Dante continously.

And why would Dante don't use:

Royal Guard

Time Stop

Time Slow (Quicksilver)

Time Slow (Chrono Heart)

Time Slow (SDT)

Dreadnaught

Royal Revenge

The Devil Breakers can be destroyed by fodders in the game and DMC5 makes clear that they are fragile, a rocket flying is nothing to Dante

To add further, there is no denying that DT Nero is far stronger than DT Dante so I'd imagine Dante would need to use SDT to seriously put DT Nero down. So would Dante lack his health Regenerationn in SDT in VS Battles threads? If so, Nero has much more raw power than DT Dante and would have Regenerationn over SDT Dante.

He have the Healing Heart from DMC2, he can heal himself with Royalguard

Also, Dante can use Omen on Nero to blow him to pieces, he also have Quicksilver and other three types of Time Manip and Royalguard to block

Even when you fight Urizen for the first time, who can one shot Dante, the Royalguard works perfectly, same thing against people equal to Nero, like Vergil
 
Dante can react to Nero like ultra instinct where his reflex is doing the reaction etc. Also Nero faced s weakened, sorry vergil due to facing dante for 23 minutes at full power.
 
They resist Time Stop, the bangle doesn't work on them

Okay. Ragtime works on all of the opponents in the game. So unless you want to argue the specifics over Ragtime effecting Vergil as being 'canon' or not is up to you.

Devil Hunter is the canon diff, Nero fight Furies in this ?

Appealing to this argument makes little sense to me. Nero can fight Furies in higher difficulties and in Bloody Palace and all of his breakers work fine on them. Teleporting Furies can even break Ragtime the very moment Nero slows time so if they wanted to express the mechanics of Fury interaction with the breakers they would have done so.

And why would Dante don't use:

Is there any evidence that Dante would be capable of using the Quicksilver abilities in SDT? You also said people scaling above a certain level can resist time manipulation so either this doesn't work on Nero or Nero's Ragtime works on Dante.

Royalguard kinda relies on Dante actually reacting to his opponent. Nero can easily DT and blitz Dante and SDT Dante can't use his styles.

The Devil Breakers can be destroyed by fodders in the game and DMC5 makes clear that they are fragile, a rocket flying is nothing to Dante

A. Devil Breakers only break when Nero is using them and gets hit, meaning he would avoid using them on opponents that can punish him.

B. Nero can carry 8 at a time.

C. That 'rocket flying' is canonically used by Nero against enemies that should be capable of easily dodging it. I don't think you can ascribe it to an ordinary rocket, especially when it can mechanically track Furies and Vergil.

He have the Healing Heart from DMC2, he can heal himself with Royalguard

Can he use Healing Heart or use Royalguard in SDT?

Even when you fight Urizen for the first time, who can one shot Dante, the Royalguard works perfectly, same thing against people equal to Nero, like Vergil

Again, Royalguard relies on Dante actually reacting to or predicting his opponent. DT Nero should blitz Dante outside of SDT, considering DT Nero moved between SDT Dante and SDT Vergil when Nero was only halfway up the stairs to their arena and they were literally just about to hit each other.

_______________

You will have to elaborate on what 'Dreadnaught', 'Royal Revenge' and 'Omen' are. DMCV is my first DMC game and I am not well-educated on Dante's abilities.
 
Sorry but this is a stomp. Considering Dante has far higher fighting strength and is actually a master swordsmanship and is stronger at his peak than Nero. Nero who only fought a super weakened vergil and it made vergil say "interesting".
 
Maxnumb231 said:
Sorry but this is a stomp. Considering Dante has far higher fighting strength and is actually a master swordsmanship and is stronger at his peak than Nero. Nero who only fought a super weakened vergil and it made vergil say "interesting".
Click to expand...
Do you have scaling to indicate Dante has 'far higher' fighting strength? Or that Vergil was 'super weakened'?
 
Do you have scaling to indicate Dante has 'far higher' fighting strength? Or that Vergil was 'super weakened'?

Vergil and dante fought for 23 minutues straight. This is shown sn example of arkham got in their fight and stomped them completely despite the fact that Vergil at his full power can defeat sealed mundus.

Dante was disappointed in the swordsmanship of sparda despite sparda being known a master swordsman in the demon world. While nero has no accolades in his arsenal to be a master hand to hand, swordsman etc.


So this is straight facts in the game.
 
Vergil and dante fought for 23 minutues straight. This is shown sn example of arkham got in their fight and stomped them completely despite the fact that Vergil at his full power can defeat sealed mundus.

Using scaling from an 18 year old Vergil and Dante is foolishness. Their mastery over their abilities and overall endurance would have grown a great deal after decades of experience. Vergil was defeated by Mundus, for example, but DMC2 Dante can stomp Void Mundus in his base form. Such an absurd gap indicates the growth that the twins went through over the decades since the Arkham debacle.

Overall, using that as an indication of their current stamina is nonsensical.

Dante was disappointed in the swordsmanship of sparda despite sparda being known a master swordsman in the demon world. While nero has no accolades in his arsenal to be a master hand to hand, swordsman etc.

I didn't mention Dante's swordsmanship. I mentioned Dante having greater power as being questionable.

Even regarding Dante's experience and training, Nero has access to Exceed to greatly amplify the power and speed of his attacks. Nero was also trained since he was a young child by Credo, who is no slacker in-regards to swordsmanship. So Nero isn't some kid picking up a sword and flailing around.

It's an expertly-trained Nero with access to Exceed to amplify his speed and power greatly vs Dante with his master-level training. I think Nero can close the gap if we just go based on their weapons and skill, no hax or magic.
 
Vergil was tired and exhausted, and that made him very weakened which is why Nero beat him and slapped Dante. This has been discussed to death, please drop it.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
They resist Time Stop, the bangle doesn't work on them
Okay. Ragtime works on all of the opponents in the game. So unless you want to argue the specifics over Ragtime effecting Vergil as being 'canon' or not is up to you.

Devil Hunter is the canon diff, Nero fight Furies in this ?

Appealing to this argument makes little sense to me. Nero can fight Furies in higher difficulties and in Bloody Palace and all of his breakers work fine on them. Teleporting Furies can even break Ragtime the very moment Nero slows time so if they wanted to express the mechanics of Fury interaction with the breakers they would have done so.

And why would Dante don't use:

Is there any evidence that Dante would be capable of using the Quicksilver abilities in SDT? You also said people scaling above a certain level can resist time manipulation so either this doesn't work on Nero or Nero's Ragtime works on Dante.

Royalguard kinda relies on Dante actually reacting to his opponent. Nero can easily DT and blitz Dante and SDT Dante can't use his styles.

The Devil Breakers can be destroyed by fodders in the game and DMC5 makes clear that they are fragile, a rocket flying is nothing to Dante

A. Devil Breakers only break when Nero is using them and gets hit, meaning he would avoid using them on opponents that can punish him.

B. Nero can carry 8 at a time.

C. That 'rocket flying' is canonically used by Nero against enemies that should be capable of easily dodging it. I don't think you can ascribe it to an ordinary rocket, especially when it can mechanically track Furies and Vergil.

He have the Healing Heart from DMC2, he can heal himself with Royalguard

Can he use Healing Heart or use Royalguard in SDT?

Even when you fight Urizen for the first time, who can one shot Dante, the Royalguard works perfectly, same thing against people equal to Nero, like Vergil

Again, Royalguard relies on Dante actually reacting to or predicting his opponent. DT Nero should blitz Dante outside of SDT, considering DT Nero moved between SDT Dante and SDT Vergil when Nero was only halfway up the stairs to their arena and they were literally just about to hit each other.

_______________

You will have to elaborate on what 'Dreadnaught', 'Royal Revenge' and 'Omen' are. DMCV is my first DMC game and I am not well-educated on Dante's abilities.
Click to expand...


Time Stop > Time Slow, Dante resists stop, he resists slow, simple

Bloody Palace is non canon, higher difficulties are non canon, so no, Nero doesn't fight against Furies in the actual canon gameplay

Dreadnaught is an "Royalguard Armor" that makes him kinda off invulnerable

Everything related to the Devil Hearts are passive abilities that Triggers with DT, including Quick Heart and Offence Heart, each of them multiplies Dante's speed and strength by 10 times, so no, Nero doesn't blitz DT Dante that easy. Also, the SDT is just a stronger form of Devil Trigger, there's no reason to believe he can't use some of his DT skills. He also have Healing Heart, Chrono Heart (which slows down time), Fire, Ice and Electro Heart. The thing is, we don't acess to all of Dante's abilities because it's impossible and completely broken gameplay-wise

The Rocket doesn't track Furies in canon, and Vergil from that fight was weakened, apparently you didn't played DMC3, so you're not going to understand, but their strength is Stamina based, and Dante and Vergil get very tired when they fight each even when they are at 100% at the beggining, they were absolutely stomped by a fodder because of that in DMC3

Even Vergil stomps DMC5 Dante when he was weakened from his fight against Urizen

"Omen" is Dante's moves in SDT, it has Gravity Manipulation that stops his opponent and then he proceeds to explode them from inside

Royal Revenge is Dante's RoyalGuard movement in 5, where he gets ready to redirect his opponent attack, this one doesn't depends on timing, just like Dreadnaught

Also, Dante's Royalguard doesn't needs timing in DMC5, when you block without it, you consume DT, but your health stays intact
 
Ogbunabali said:
Vergil was tired and exhausted, and that made him very weakened which is why Nero beat him and slapped Dante. This has been discussed to death, please drop it.
Click to expand...
I'm not 'dropping' it. The fact that you would even say as such indicates that you find yourself lacking in argument. You barely even responded to anything I said, only repeating what you already said.

Your arguments of them being 'weakened' are further questionable when Nero defeated SDT Vergil. Regardless of how much weaker Vergil would have been, his SDT should still be far FAR above his DT. Meaning DT Nero should, regardless of how exhausted they were, scale far above DT Dante and DT Vergil. Meaning that this fight should be treated as SDT Dante vs DT Nero. DT Nero could out-speed SDT Dante and SDT Vergil before they could reach each other and SDT doesn't seem to have any health Regenerationn, meaning Dante would have limited stamina whereas Nero would be regenerating over time.

So the question becomes whether or not Nero can win a battle of attrition with SDT Dante.
 
Like I said it has been discussed to death, you're just beating a dead horse. If you do continue it will just incite a flame war and this thread will end up getting closed.
 
Also, DT Nero is something different from the other DTs, even Vergil didn't knew what form of power is that

Base Nero and Base Dante are comparable

DT Nero is stronger than DT Dante, but he have a good amount of perks and haxes to keep up

Also, SDT is not SUPER Stronger than DT, Dante and Awakened Dante are different base level of power, and he could hurt Urizen in base during their fight
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
Also, SDT is not SUPER Stronger than DT, Dante and Awakened Dante are different base level of power, and he could hurt Urizen in base during their fight
Click to expand...
I don't know...Nico hypes SDT up as being a pretty huge power boost in her reports and awakening SDT enabled Dante to effortlessly rip Urizen apart. I understand Dante is just much more powerful all-around but it seems to me like SDT meant to be considered as something much stronger than DT.

Dante does, of-course, have plenty of hax but I don't think there is enough to justify DT Dante being able to handle DT Nero. DT Nero just has absurd power with his Exceed, Blue Rose charging and Devil Bringer. It doesn't help that Nero is also ridiculously agile (I mean he has quadruple jump without factoring in Gerbera and his Table Hopper sure as hell isn't a normal dodge).

I honestly think that DT Dante is a non-factor here. SDT is almost required for Dante to securely put Nero down and some argument may be made for DT Nero being able to handle SDT Dante due to Regenerationn, Devil Bringer and potentially Devil Breaker.
 
Dante still have Regenerationn in SDT, he doesn't have Healing

The exceed will stop at the Flame Heart, it will literally heal Dante from fire damage

The point is, I'm not saying that DT Dante is enough to beat Nero, but since SDT has a time limit (not like the gameplay, since Dante could transform, fly to the Qliphoth, find Nero and fight Urizen, but is has a time limit) so he needs DT to keep up in case the SDT runs out

That's why I'm showing all the hax and perks he have in DT, specially the Quick Heart and the Offence Heart, which makes him 10X faster and stronger than his base DT, so he can actually survive a battle with Nero in DT, and he's faster considering Quicksilver, Chrono Heart and Time Stop, and a SDT Battle against DT Nero might be good for Dante since he's equal to Vergil, who could fight Nero even while weakened, and Dante even have more powerful hax like Time Slow (while in DT), Homing Attack, Gravity Manipulation and Durability Negation (by exploding Nero from inside)

Also, Nero will run out of Devil Breakers, since they break after using their best ability

But I'm not voting here because I made the thread, so yeah lmao
 
Dante still have Regenerationn in SDT, he doesn't have Healing

What Regenerationn does SDT have? I don't recall it ever having done that outside of maybe when Dante is stabbed by Rebellion but...that's probably just gameplay mechanics. Dante didn't need to do that in the cutscene against Vergil to enter SDT and if you use that as an argument then I could point to Base Nero ripping out Yamato, with no damage taken, and dealing a huge chunk of damage to Vergil with it.

The exceed will stop at the Flame Heart, it will literally heal Dante from fire damage

I'll conceed on Exceed due to Flame Heart.

The point is, I'm not saying that DT Dante is enough to beat Nero, but since SDT has a time limit (not like the gameplay, since Dante could transform, fly to the Qliphoth, find Nero and fight Urizen, but is has a time limit) so he needs DT to keep up in case the SDT runs out

Essentially speaking, what you are implying here is that if Dante can't put down Nero with SDT in-time it basically means Nero wins, if DT Dante can't sufficiently handle Nero?

That's why I'm showing all the hax and perks he have in DT, specially the Quick Heart and the Offence Heart, which makes him 10X faster and stronger than his base DT, so he can actually survive a battle with Nero in DT

10x faster and stronger? Can you show me source on this so I can be certain on its validity? That's a pretty big power boost after all.

and he's faster considering Quicksilver, Chrono Heart and Time Stop

So are you saying that Dante doesn't scale to being immune to Time Stop or would Quicksilver, Chrono Heart and Time Stop be useless against Nero, who scales far above people resistant to Time Stop?

and a SDT Battle against DT Nero might be good for Dante since he's equal to Vergil, who could fight Nero even while weakened

The scaling on this matter is questionable. Dante and Vergil both state that Vergil lost against Nero. Vergil was using SDT in the battle and, like I said above, even a weakened SDT should scale far above even a peak DT. I'd have to ask in that matter how much stronger SDT is, compared to DT, and how much weaker Vergil would actually have been at this point.

Arkham's plan, for example, wouldn't work nearly as well with the current Dante and Vergil. They should have far greater stamina and they should be much more efficient at using their abilities than before, which is only common sense.

Dante and Vergil could also still go SDT casually so...either SDT isn't even remotely draining to enter or they weren't notably exhausted.

and Dante even have more powerful hax like Time Slow (while in DT), Homing Attack, Gravity Manipulation and Durability Negation (by exploding Nero from inside)

Again, is Nero immune to Time Stop by scaling or would Dante be frozen by Ragtime?

Homing Attack is good but I've mentioned before that Nero's Punch Line has absurd tracking and is fast enough to easily keep up with people scaling to Massively Hypersonic+ so it's not a normal rocket by any means.

What are Dante's Gravity Manipulation feats? I'm pretty sure that was something from DMCV but I didn't see the justification.

Durability Negation via implosion is certainly potent but Nero's demonic physiology enables him to regenerate and his DT enhances his Regenerationn greatly so I'm uncertain if that would actually outright kill him. How would Dante's implosion track? Could Nero feasibly dodge out of the way of Dante's range?

Also, Nero will run out of Devil Breakers, since they break after using their best ability

This is true (which is why I think giving him one of each type is a flawed concept, as most of Nero's breakers aren't too haxxy or powerful compared to, say Ragtime, Gerbera or maybe Punch Line) but I'm sure Nero, in-character, would ensure that he only uses when he REALLY needs to for pivotal moments. He isn't an idiot after all.

____________

I'm probably heading off for now. I'll respond to any more posts in this thread tomorrow.
 
I should probably stop calling Time Slow 'Time Stop' in my posts. Stop just flows better when I am typing.
 
What Regenerationn does SDT have? I don't recall it ever having done that outside of maybe when Dante is stabbed by Rebellion but...that's probably just gameplay mechanics. Dante didn't need to do that in the cutscene against Vergil to enter SDT and if you use that as an argument then I could point to Base Nero ripping out Yamato, with no damage taken, and dealing a huge chunk of damage to Vergil with it.

Any demon like Dante, Vergil, Sparda, Nero and Hell Lords have Mid Regen that's basically standard, the game states that Dante doesn't have healing, yes, okay, but Regenerationn is something else.

Also, Vergil when using SDT heals in their battle, so maybe SDT doesn't have healing as a game mechanic to avoid DT being useless

Essentially speaking, what you are implying here is that if Dante can't put down Nero with SDT in-time it basically means Nero wins, if DT Dante can't sufficiently handle Nero?

He can use SDT more than one time in a fight, and he can endure a fight against Nero while in DT tans to all of his perks and haxes

10x faster and stronger? Can you show me source on this so I can be certain on its validity? That's a pretty big power boost after all.

Here https://imgur.com/a/JIB0w

The Offence Heart is basically the same, but it focus on strength, while Quick Heart focus on speed

So are you saying that Dante doesn't scale to being immune to Time Stop or would Quicksilver, Chrono Heart and Time Stop be useless against Nero, who scales far above people resistant to Time Stop?

Nero doesn't scale, the resistance comes from the Devil Sword Sparda that Dante absorbed

Nero resistance is only based on the Beastheads, just like Vergil, and guess what ? Vergil is affected by Time Slow in DMC3 (Quicksilver) and SDT's Time Slow in DMC5, so Nero's gets affected, but Dante doesn't, maybe he can resist Chrono Heart, however

With Quicksilver, Quick Heart and Time Stop, it will be hard for Nero to even hit him

The scaling on this matter is questionable. Dante and Vergil both state that Vergil lost against Nero. Vergil was using SDT in the battle and, like I said above, even a weakened SDT should scale far above even a peak DT. I'd have to ask in that matter how much stronger SDT is, compared to DT, and how much weaker Vergil would actually have been at this point.

Arkham's plan, for example, wouldn't work nearly as well with the current Dante and Vergil. They should have far greater stamina and they should be much more efficient at using their abilities than before, which is only common sense.

Dante and Vergil could also still go SDT casually so...either SDT isn't even remotely draining to enter or they weren't notably exhausted.

Arkham would fail against DMC5 Dante and Vergil they are massively stronger than their DMC3 selves (by literally Quintilions of times), so even weakened, they would stomp him

But against Nero, also a 3-A, the difference is zero in this case, Arkham, a 8-B character, can defeat a weakened DMC3 Dante, and Nero, a 3-A character, can defeat a weakened DMC5 Dante

Basically, it's a false equivalence

And we don't have statements saying that SDT is stamina related, it has a time limit, but that's all. Dante and Vergil tiring in their fight is not caused by the use of SDT, in DMC3 they didn't had it and were tired aswell, possibly even more than 5

Again, is Nero immune to Time Stop by scaling or would Dante be frozen by Ragtime?

Homing Attack is good but I've mentioned before that Nero's Punch Line has absurd tracking and is fast enough to easily keep up with people scaling to Massively Hypersonic+ so it's not a normal rocket by any means.

What are Dante's Gravity Manipulation feats? I'm pretty sure that was something from DMCV but I didn't see the justification.

Durability Negation via implosion is certainly potent but Nero's demonic physiology enables him to regenerate and his DT enhances his Regenerationn greatly so I'm uncertain if that would actually outright kill him. How would Dante's implosion track? Could Nero feasibly dodge out of the way of Dante's range?

The Gravity Manipulation is based on the attack freezing the opponents movements, it can freeze Urizen and SDT Vergil, so Nero's not safe

Also, the Punch Line would be useless since Dante have Summoned swords that instinctively protect him

This is true (which is why I think giving him one of each type is a flawed concept, as most of Nero's breakers aren't too haxxy or powerful compared to, say Ragtime, Gerbera or maybe Punch Line) but I'm sure Nero, in-character, would ensure that he only uses when he REALLY needs to for pivotal moments. He isn't an idiot after all.

He may not be a idiot, but he's a deadweight

Lol, just kidding, you're right in this one, it will end but Nero will make good use of them
 
How can anyone even argue that Vergil and Dante being tired is irrelevant? And by tired i mean TIRED, Dante and Vergil were one hit away from ending the fight, them posing and going SDT after saying "it's time we end this" proves it, which means that the Vergil Nero fought was almost dead and even then Vergil fought him in base. Saying that they aren't weakened by being tired contraddicts what we have been shown in the verse, we would need proof that it is not the case anymore to reliably say that they are beyond that limitation. My vote is for Dante by being far more experienced, having better hax and being logically stronger
 
It seems it can go either way from what I can tell from all the arguments

Incon
 
Any demon like Dante, Vergil, Sparda, Nero and Hell Lords have Mid Regen

Also, Vergil when using SDT heals in their battle, so maybe SDT doesn't have healing as a game mechanic to avoid DT being useless

Fair enough. I kind of wish the story would elaborate more on these powers. Nero should still have the stamina edge due to his DT Regenerationn amp.

He can use SDT more than one time in a fight, and he can endure a fight against Nero while in DT tans to all of his perks and haxes

Well, how many times can he use SDT? And how long does it take? Like I said, Dante can go SDT in cutscenes with little issue so is there even a flaw to using it? For example, if Dante wants to use SDT doesn't that mean he has to sacrifice his DT at least twice or would that be incorrect as simply gameplay mechanics?

If he has to sacrifice his DT to use SDT then I have to question if Base Dante can survive DT Nero long enough to pull his Sin Trigger.

The Offence Heart is basically the same, but it focus on strength, while Quick Heart focus on speed

I don't think that's good enough of a reasoning to claim his power is 10x greater. I'll accept the 10x speed boost but if there is nothing stating Offence Heart boosts power by 10x...then I have to question it.

Arkham would fail against DMC5 Dante and Vergil they are massively stronger than their DMC3 selves (by literally Quintilions of times), so even weakened, they would stomp him

This isn't the point I was going for. I am stating that DMC5 Dante and Vergil have undergone a ridiculous number of battles that should have increased their stamina a great deal due to all of the physical training they have done. Their control over their demonic power should also be far superior to their teenage selves.

I am acknowledging that Vergil would have been weaker but I am challenging the notion that Vergil would have been even remotely as weakened as his teenage self would have been.

Also, how long was Dante and Vergil's fight in DMC3? If there is nothing to indicate the length then I would argue that using the Arkham feat is questionable in-regards to DMC5 Dante and Vergil fighting.

Nero doesn't scale, the resistance comes from the Devil Sword Sparda that Dante absorbed

In that case, why is this fight a thing? You are essentially stating that Nero's hax won't work on Dante while giving Dante all of his hax (including things he doesn't even use in DMC5). You could argue that DT Nero can handle DT Dante, even with all of this hax but then you give Dante four charms (Offence Heart, Healing Heart, Quick Heart and Chrono Heart) when DMC2 Dante can only use three at a time, to my understanding.

The Gravity Manipulation is based on the attack freezing the opponents movements, it can freeze Urizen and SDT Vergil, so Nero's not safe

So, what attack is it? What is its range like? How much damage does it do?

Also, the Punch Line would be useless since Dante have Summoned swords that instinctively protect him

It wouldn't be useless. Considering Nero's Punch Line can take over the attentions of Dante's swords, meaning it weakens Dante's defence and offense potential with the swords.
 
Twellas said:
How can anyone even argue that Vergil and Dante being tired is irrelevant? And by tired i mean TIRED, Dante and Vergil were one hit away from ending the fight, them posing and going SDT after saying "it's time we end this" proves it, which means that the Vergil Nero fought was almost dead and even then Vergil fought him in base. Saying that they aren't weakened by being tired contraddicts what we have been shown in the verse, we would need proof that it is not the case anymore to reliably say that they are beyond that limitation. My vote is for Dante by being far more experienced, having better hax and being logically stronger
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You say Dante is logically stronger but then say that we need proof that Dante and Vergil have superior stamina compared to when they were decades younger and less experienced? What are you scaling this off? Nero beating up a weakened SDT Vergil?
 
Well, how many times can he use SDT? And how long does it take? Like I said, Dante can go SDT in cutscenes with little issue so is there even a flaw to using it? For example, if Dante wants to use SDT doesn't that mean he has to sacrifice his DT at least twice or would that be incorrect as simply gameplay mechanics?

If he has to sacrifice his DT to use SDT then I have to question if Base Dante can survive DT Nero long enough to pull his Sin Trigger.

Well, any DT is actually infinite, and all of those powers that consume your DT gauge only have this weakness for the sake of gameplay

When you need your DT for long times, like Dante's battle against Mundus, it will be infinite

So that thing of changing your DT for your SDT is actually game mechanics, Dante can keep in DT and use SDT while Nero can keep in DT the whole fight

About Dante, when he transformed for the first time, he had time to fly to the Qliphoth, went to Urizen's place, stayed there for some minutes until Griffon evacuates Nero and then fights Urizen, with the description stating that it was SDT who beated the demon king, so it's a good time, much more than actual gameplay. And going by Vergil in both boss fights, using SDT it's not that hard for them, it is actually almost similar to DT

This isn't the point I was going for. I am stating that DMC5 Dante and Vergil have undergone a ridiculous number of battles that should have increased their stamina a great deal due to all of the physical training they have done. Their control over their demonic power should also be far superior to their teenage selves.

I am acknowledging that Vergil would have been weaker but I am challenging the notion that Vergil would have been even remotely as weakened as his teenage self would have been.

Also, how long was Dante and Vergil's fight in DMC3? If there is nothing to indicate the length then I would argue that using the Arkham feat is questionable in-regards to DMC5 Dante and Vergil fighting.

You're right about their stamina, but since both are equal, a fight between them still a great deal

We don't consider that Dante and Vergil were completely useless after that fight, that's why even with that, Nero is comparable and scales to 3-A, if the same rule from Arkham in DMC3 were applied in this case, Nero wouldn't even be 3-A

However, Dante and Vergil were at the middle of their fight and were interrupted by Lady, in DMC5 they were going to finish it with both in SDT, so I believe that their fight in five was longer, actually

I don't think that's good enough of a reasoning to claim his power is 10x greater. I'll accept the 10x speed boost but if there is nothing stating Offence Heart boosts power by 10x...then I have to question it

It has statements of being "on par" with the Quick Heart and boosting by ten times his strenght, but it's not on Dante's profile, I wonder why

In that case, why is this fight a thing? You are essentially stating that Nero's hax won't work on Dante while giving Dante all of his hax (including things he doesn't even use in DMC5). You could argue that DT Nero can handle DT Dante, even with all of this hax but then you give Dante four charms (Offence Heart, Healing Heart, Quick Heart and Chrono Heart) when DMC2 Dante can only use three at a time, to my understanding.

The hearts being used only three at a time is also a game mech, and even if it doesn't, you can only change them on the menu at anytime, it kinda "don't take time" to Dante to change them

Also, I can't remove any abilities or hax from a character in VS Matches, it's against the rules

Dante can use normally his hax from other games since it's cumulative, the exception are some of the Devil Arms, because he sells some of them, but for example, he used Cerberus (the classic one, from DMC3) in his fight against Blarog in Before the Nightmare, which takes place decades after DMC3

However, The Hearts are actually powers that he absorbed in DMC2, they are not Devil Arms

So, what attack is it? What is its range like? How much damage does it do?

The Gravitational Orbs appears right at the opponent no matter the distance in game, and it literally one-shots everything besides bosses, even fodder bosses like Cavaliere Angelo (a 3-A fighting a 7-B) don't die with this attack by a game mech, maybe Urizen and Vergil could survive, but even them get a ton of damage and are instantly stopped by this attack

It wouldn't be useless. Considering Nero's Punch Line can take over the attentions of Dante's swords, meaning it weakens Dante's defence and offense potential with the swords.

So Punch Line vs Summoned Swords, the thing is, Punch Line will end, the swords can be recreated anytime
 
About Dante, when he transformed for the first time, he had time to fly to the Qliphoth, went to Urizen's place, stayed there for some minutes until Griffon evacuates Nero and then fights Urizen, with the description stating that it was SDT who beated the demon king, so it's a good time, much more than actual gameplay. And going by Vergil in both boss fights, using SDT it's not that hard for them, it is actually almost similar to DT

Okay so Nero can use DT endlessly but Dante has some sort of cap on his SDT timer? Is it stated anywhere that SDT has this timer canonically or is this just based on Dante exiting SDT before the end of fights?

However, Dante and Vergil were at the middle of their fight and were interrupted by Lady, in DMC5 they were going to finish it with both in SDT, so I believe that their fight in five was longer, actually

It seems hard to quantify, in that case, how weakened they would have been. You say their fight was nearing its end but the brothers are practically equals so I think they could kill each other regardless of stamina.

So the question is how much weakened Dante and Vergil would be now to warrant them declaring the end of a fight. They fought for close to half an hour but we don't know how long the Dante vs Vergil fight in DMC3 was to draw a comparison or how long Nero's fight with Vergil was.

Based upon gameplay mechanics and how Nero could blitz to SDT Dante and SDT Vergil I'd imagine that we are intended to think DT Nero had a strong edge over the SDT Brothers at the time but how the gap would be closed, or widened, is hard to define just based on them being weakened from fighting each other.

To my understanding, Dante should have limited stamina in SDT but his limited stamina is enough to keep in the game and win if Nero doesn't have enough power to keep up.

It has statements of being "on par" with the Quick Heart and boosting by ten times his strenght, but it's not on Dante's profile, I wonder why

Well, okay then. Then my question turns into how big of a gap there is between SDT and DT. Would Dante, logically, have been using the Hearts passively in DMC5? If so, we can scale DT Nero as above X10 DT Dante. If not, the issue becomes the scaling between DT and SDT multipliers.

However, The Hearts are actually powers that he absorbed in DMC2, they are not Devil Arms

By 'abosrbed' would that mean Dante was actually using the hearts the entire time in DMC5? If so, the hearts, outside of Chrono Heart, don't have much impact.

The Gravitational Orbs appears right at the opponent no matter the distance in game, and it literally one-shots everything besides bosses, even fodder bosses like Cavaliere Angelo (a 3-A fighting a 7-B) don't die with this attack by a game mech, maybe Urizen and Vergil could survive, but even them get a ton of damage and are instantly stopped by this attack

If it one shots everything but bosses then I would definitely argue that Nero, Vergil and Urizen would be capable of surviving it. You could always argue gameplay mechanics of the bosses being too easy if it one-shot them but if that were the case then Dante would have one shot Urizen. Not sure how IC it would be for him to try and one shot Vergil with it.

So Punch Line vs Summoned Swords, the thing is, Punch Line will end, the swords can be recreated anytime

Well, this goes back to the argument over the Devil Breakers. Nero can use Punch Line over and over again but it will break if Nero gets hit while using it and it will eventually end.

I think if Ragtime is useless in this fight that we should reasonably switch it out for Punch Line. There is no hard number or types of Breakers that Nero would use so I think it should be fine to flexibly customise his Devil Breakers if some are just useless.

Still, regardless. Nero can at least keep the summoned swords at bay. Nero would have two things to aid him in-regards to Summoned Sword spam:

  • 1. Nero's own Summoned Sword spam in DT (which you say should be infinite by lore)
  • 2. Nero's Devil Bringer should be capable of blocking, deflecting and potentially catching the swords. They act as additional limbs that can augment his attacks so I don't see why they wouldn't be capable of backing Nero up with Dante's spam.
 
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