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Elminster Aumar VS Ahzek Ahriman

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MrKingOfNegativity

MrKingOfNegativity

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I'm on my third strike with this thread because apparently Elminster is even more broken than what he's known for.

Both characters have very basic knowledge of their opponent and three months to prepare. Ahzek is assumed to be High 5-A.

And no, Elminster isn't allowed Mystra's help.

The fight takes place here, with both combatants starting at fifty meters.

Speed is equalized.

Elminster: 0

Ahrima: 0

Inconclusive: 7
 
Okay so as was pointed out by Udl in other threads with Elminster, he is unique among D&D adventurers in that he has legitimate argument for having a god actively protect him.

Like when he was in trouble a 2-A god ran into the Abyss, clusterfucked the entire place, and brought him out.

Are we allowing outside help.
 
As far as this match is concerned, no.

I've been offsite before. I'm aware of the whole thing between Elminster and Mythra (Mystra? Mysthra? I don't exactly remember her name right now), and I'm pretty sure it goes against our outside help rules. Beyond that, I have common sense. And nowhere near enough malice for that like seriously, throwing a LOTR character against a 2-A would just be cruel.
 
Good, just making it clear.

With prep time Elminster can generate pretty much anything within reason, what is typical for Saruman? Read the books a bunch but never got into him much.
 
I haven't actually read any of the books Saruman appears in since I was a kid, so I couldn't tell you for certain.

I like making matches for characters I know little to nothing about. Sue me.

I think Arda and Saga are the only members left who're legitimately knowledgeable on LOTR. I expected one of them to have shown up by now. (The former might not be online at the moment, though)
 
Whatever the case, Elminster being the smartman he is, would probably spend a fair amount of time asking questions regarding his enemy and gaining the info on him. In combat it's a coin flip what he'd lead with but if he figures Sarumon to be enough of a threat, he'd likely just Wish.
 
I have very limited knowledge on D&D, but after reading Elminster's page, the only spells he has that are 6-B are not really useful for combat. I could be mistaken though.
 
Attack potency is not the point. Hax is.
 
Elminster is a tabletop sorcerer, and one of the premier ones at that.

I doubt AP is going to be particularly relevant in this fight. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could have a fair match against people much higher into Tier 6 than LOTR, just based on hax alone.
 
What do we mean with "Saruman at full power"? Is he his istari version, Saruman the Ringmaker? Or is he Curumo the maia (a full fledged Ainu)? Is he Curumo the maia with also his ring of power (which was powerful enough to give him the edge over Gandalf empowered by the ring Narya, the most powerful of the elven rings)?

In the first scenario (Saruman the istari), Elminster would wreck him hard all the way from Rhun to the Misty Mountains. Most of Saruman's knowledge would be blocked by decree of the Valar, and his soul would depart to Valinor once defeated making impossible for him to regenerate his fana.

Elminster can't be blitzed (elmnister's evasion plus contingency plus he always know when any gate and teleportation ability or spell happens around him 12 or 30 seconds before it hapens) have a humongous selection of spell, having access to core spells, spells from the Forgotten Realm setting and also spells from Greyhawk (this was from some Dragon Magazine but don't ask me which one). 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 edition high-level wizards have great powers over time: a infamous combination is celerity (or greater celerity) plus time stop at which point Elmnister, given the three months of preparation, may even pulls out a Karsus' Folly and steal Saruman "divinity" by develping a limited version of the Karsus's avatar spell. Even without him researching new crazy epic spells just for the occasion, he's able to summon 2-C infernals (Spellcaster Level required is 20 with gate, Elmnister has 29) and even the more powerful 2-C to 2-A hecatoncheires (SL required 26 with gate; their name on the wiki is wrong) with "mundane" non-epic spells.

Saruman best hope would be to dispel the likely mind blank spell protection Elminster would have cast on himself and then use his "voice" on the now vulnerable wizard. On the other hand, even if Elmnister can't be blitzed as explained above, Saruman actually have some better chance of winning if he decides to take the fight also on the physical level: Elminster is a decent fighter but Saruman should surpass him by a great degree and the istari can still counterspell/dispel Elminster's spells while fighting (possibly at least thank to his ring), while a D&D wizard can't fight and cast spells at the same time (Elminster is not a gish). Last but not least: do the fight take place on Arda/Ea? If so, Saruman may gain some insight on how D&D wizards usually prepare themselves for battle and act accordingly. Still, if Elminster has access to gate and summon spells this is likely a stomp.

As I have argue in this thread, Ainur like Curumo should have some form of Acausality given their ability to act in the Timeless Hall (which is literally a void without time and matter) and so some resistence to Time Manipulation. If so, I'd say Curumo can counterspell/dispel everything else Elminster can cast (counterspells are a thing in LotR, as shown by Gandalf encounter with the Bane of Durin). Also, Elminster will run of of spells very quickly while Curumo will never tire. But at least this wouldn't be a stomp.
 
Saga89 said:
What do we mean with "Saruman at full power"?
Click to expand...
His second key on his profile is labelled as "Full Power" for some reason, so that's what I meant.

Although now I've realized that half of his better powers come from his third key, not his second. Changing...
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
[after reading that comment in its entirety] W h a t
Click to expand...
Yes. Copying the relevant mechanics of gate from the 3.5 SRD:

"The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsio to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. [...] If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time."

Infernals and Hecatoncheires are not even considered "unique".
 
...

Tell me this much. Would taking away El's prep time make this any fairer, or no?
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
...
Tell me this much. Would taking away El's prep time make this any fairer, or no?
Click to expand...
I don't really know, we would need someone who has read his novels to tell us what 9┬░ level spell he usually keeps prepared: Elmnister has only 4 of them and 1 is gone with Elminster's evasio, which I assume is always prepared.

But really, any 20th level wizard can tecnically summon that 2-C infernal. Elminster is not even particularly a very well optimazed wizard. There is a reason if wizards, clerics and druids were considered to be a league above all other character classes in earlier editions of D&D.
 
Gate is pretty much instant so no, there will always be a chance Elminster opens up and says "Alright 2-C fight for me"
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Gate is pretty much instant so no, there will always be a chance Elminster opens up and says "Alright 2-C fight for me"
Click to expand...
I'll explain better: he needs to study the spells from his books to memory and each time he casts a spell it's erased from his memory and needs to study it again in order to be able to cast it again. He may actually "prepare" a spell in this way twice or more time, but up to the limit he can memorize for each spell level (or tier of the spell, which normally goes from 0 to 9), which, in the case of the most powerful spells like time stop, gate and Elminster evasio, is 4 for a wizard at Elminster's Intelligence level.

So if Elminster has an in-character reason to prefer/prioritize other spells, no prep time may be decisive.

PS: btw I'm going to bed now, it's 3:20 am here.
 
I feel like I should just change Saruman to someone else at this point.

...Although I have no idea who, since Low 7-B and 6-B aren't tiers I specialize in. Hmmm...
 
It's more like Elminster is particularly haxy of the Low 7-Bs in D&D. He's actually slated for an upgrade to 7-B.

If you'd want a weaker Low 7-B, Artus Climber is probably the best bet. If you'd like a stronger one, Strahd von Zarovich.

6-B has MtG if you wanna hazard those waters and stick to D&D-esque themes.
 
I have no knowledge on MtG whatsoever, save for the fact that I used to make decks that built up mana really fast and then did basically nothing else.

Although, my only recent knowledge on Tolkien comes from the non-canon films, so...

**** it.
 
UPDATE:

This had better work. I sacrificed a perfectly well-edited picture for this.
 
I... mostly meant Saruman vs Someone but

alright

bet 50$ this dies harder than Elminster vs Tezz

Regardless, the same thing applies here, IIRC. With prep Elminster can hard counter a lot of her stuff and insta-summon some Tier 2s.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
bet 50$ this dies harder than Elminster vs Tezz
Click to expand...
I don't have $50 to bet, so...

I had a totally different idea that might have gotten more attention, but I don't have high hopes in it.
 
I don't think Leliana has any way to resist the celerity + time stop combo, so Elminster will always open the fight with an average of 6 other spells. Once this combo starts, all he needs is to walk near Liliana, cast prismatic sphere + antimagic field (prismatic sphere cannot be dispelled or negated as RAW except by 7 specifics spells to be casted in succession, which Liliana is now unable to cast, if she had even learn them; antimagic field can be negated only by deities) and proceed to stab Liliana to death once time stop is ended with his superior melee skills.

And again, 3 months of preparations would be overkill for Elminster: he may research the names and summons all the demons within Leliana, compromising her power. Heck, he may very well summon Leliana herself within a circle of protection against evil, which will leave Leliana entirely powerless.

Even without all this crazy stuff, a spell resistence spell cast by Elminster would give him 40 Spell Resistence, which by D&D mechanics most entities (at least in D&D) below Low 2-C would find extremely hard to surpass, affecting Elminster only with 1 spell every 20 they cast, while those on par with Elminster magical prowess (aka Spellcaster Level, which in Elmister case is significantly higher than many D&D gods) will affect him on average with 1 spell out of 2.

Other things Elminster can do even without much preparation:

- permanently destroy The Chain Veil via disjunctio.

- permanently bind Leiana with bind, sequester, imprisonment or temporal stasis spells.

- permanently turn Leliana into a statue incapable of acting and use spells via flesh into stone. Proceed to disintegrate said statue.

- close Leliana into a prismatic sphere, negate all gate, summoning, plane shifting, teleportation and similar abilities within the sphere via dimensional lock, and leave Leliana contend with multiple spells like incendiary cloud and summoned creatures (summoned before casting dimensional lock ofc).

- use polymorph any object on Leliana to turn her into something with low mental ability scores to negate her spellcasting abilities. He can, for example, polymorph her into a steak and have lunch.

- Elminster has a spell to protect himself against anything, even if he doesn't know, or hasn't prepared, a particular spell (possibly because isn't a spell normally available to wizards) he can still copy it with limited wish or wish. Most notably, mind blank and death ward spells would guard him against almost everything Leliana would normally use.

- In the event Leliana can somehow kill him, Elminster's evasio will bring him back at least a second time, even from beyond death, Even should Leliana eat his soul.

All of the above only considering the core spells, I can't even list all possible combinations Elminster ha at his disposal (like prismatic sphere + dimensional lock + maw of chaos and God knows whatever else). If anyone is interested to know why high-level D&D wizards have an hax for every contingency, you can read this .
 
>Can summon 2-Cs

>Doesn't have a "2-C with summons" key on his profile.

And you can technically restrict summonings if they are of higher tiers.
 
^ this is true

but in fairness

Elm's profile has been second-priority to just getting the more generally used profiles in order, adding relevant scaling/lore characters, and generally expanding the verse. his profile is an ancient bag of shit, basically, with a diamond at the center we need to take and fix up.

On a more positive note it's refreshing to see someone know about D&D. Saga, I will say the 1/20 thing (auto-succeed on 20, auto-fail on 1) is ignored on the wiki since game mechanics, but otherwise, good shit.
 
I have one more idea to try before I close this.

And I don't think you're going to like it.
 
I know almost nothing about Ahriman, but the way I see things he still needs the beat celerity in order to be a challenge. Can his Time Manipulation do this? Otherwise Ahriman could be even Massively Faster than Light, but by RAW Elminster is always going to act first and cast his opening spells.

Other than that, I can't think of much Elminster may do to him, but still:

1) How strong is Ahriman's Resistence to Mind Manipulation? Elminster's feeblemind spell is effectively more powerful against spellcasters and psionics/psykers and it would leave Ahriman a bubbling idiot (didn't mention it against Leliana because it doesn't work on udead).

2) Bind, sequester, imprisonment and temporal stasis spells may still work on Ahry.

3) Elminster may win by BFR. Can Ahry get out of another plane of existence? Given how speed is equalized, Elminster can send him to Mystra's plane and leave him to her... (you know what? Actually I don't think Ahry's powers, like Reality Warping, are really going to help if Mystra wants to negate them).

3) Elminster can even Ahry's Probability Manipulation and Precognition via spells (like Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Divine Favor, and Improvisatio).

Mr. Bambu said:
^ this is true
but in fairness

Elm's profile has been second-priority to just getting the more generally used profiles in order, adding relevant scaling/lore characters, and generally expanding the verse. his profile is an ancient bag of shit, basically, with a diamond at the center we need to take and fix up.

On a more positive note it's refreshing to see someone know about D&D. Saga, I will say the 1/20 thing (auto-succeed on 20, auto-fail on 1) is ignored on the wiki since game mechanics, but otherwise, good shit.
Click to expand...
If this may be of some comfort, Elminster's profile is also outdated and incomplete on any D&D handbook where it appeared. I'm basing myself mostly on his 3.0 profile, which was mostly complete when it first came out, but still is missing all his spellfire (or magefire, or whatever is called; it is a different thing entirely from his Archmage class ability) abilities (small things like Power Absorbtion and healing through his foes' magic...)

So, are we going to say Elminster can render himself basically immune to harmful magic coming from sources below 3-A (given how said 2-C infernals still have some serious problems beating his spell resistence spell)?
 
The only thing I'm going to say (which I said before, but that was a mountain of comments ago) is that help from Mystra is barred. Most people here don't have basic knowledge about how the whole El/Mystra thing goes, but I've seen enough debates outside of the wiki to understand how it works, and it's pretty blatantly against our usual outside help rules.

I'll leave a note in the OP, just so it's made clear. Although considering this is Ahriman we're talking about, I may change it back if things get too severe.
 
Ok, but can Ahry get out of something like the Elemental Planes (especially those of water and earth, where he would be basically entombed under infinite water/earth)? Anyway, Elminster can send Ahriman on any good or law-aligned plane as there is always at least one god residing on any plane.

And does it count as outside help if Elminster is using his powers in order to get it?
 
Gonna go for a jog, but before I do, I'll just post this link, which contains a good amount (though not all) of the relevant info for Ahriman.

  • Getting out of BFR would probably be one of the least problematic things for Ahriman, as he should be able to just pop in and out of the Warp to get back to where he needs to go, which is something he does very often. BFRing Ahriman directly to the immediate presence of a good-aligned deity is more problematic, but only if he fails to leave immediately. I'm also not sure if it's more likely to be something Elminster does than Warp BFR, which is definitely part of Ahriman's repertoire.
"Ahriman raised a hand. The lash coiled around his arm, pulsing, cutting and sucking through his armour. Power flared from him, exploding outwards into the warp. The psychic shock wave lifted daemons from reality." - Gates of Ruin, pg 19

  • Ahriman's resistance against mental abilities such as Mind Manipulation is actually extremely solid, considering he has feats such as using his own mental powers to push back against those of three dozen similarly-trained sorcerers, as well as dispersing his body and mind into the immaterium in order to avoid harm (while still harming others).
"A thought from Ahriman and they stopped firing. A metre beyond their circle explosions danced across an invisible barrier. Astraeos looked at Ahriman with a flicker of concern. The hangar was full of Amon's forces, hundreds of Rubricae encircling them in an unbroken wall. +This will work?+ Ahriman smiled. He looked at the army of Rubricae gathered in the hangar. He spoke their names, rolling them through the warp like the notes of a song. Other minds rose to oppose him, but he poured his will into the song of names. The warp felt like a river of fire as it flowed through him. The Rubricae stopped firing. Astraeos looked at Ahriman as if he had never really seen him before. +It's not over yet,+ sent Ahriman. He could feel the sorcerers who stood at the back of the ranks of Rubricae recoiling in shock at what had just happened. There were thirty-six of them." - Ahriman: Exile, pg 192

"Ahriman held the thought of the beating wings, pouring himself into each one, feeling his mind and body become like smoke. Cendrion's sword was a splinter of sharpness and sunlight above his head. He could feel the pressure in the warp building and building.

Two paces.

Ahriman vanished, and in his place a cyclone of shadow and carrion cries roared. Chunks of stone ripped from the floor. Cendrion leapt, spinning his body into the turning wind, sword slicing.

One pace.

Cendrion's sword cut through the spiral of shadow. The mass of wings parted like a slit sheet of silk. Ahriman felt the pain of the cut, felt the Grey Knight's will pouring into the blade. But he was ready. The Grey Knight was strong, strong in ways that he had never imagined, but he was like his sword, a weapon, and that focus made him blind. Ahriman focused his whole mind for an instant. Cendrion's sword shattered. Silver fragments spun through the air.

He felt the Grey Knight's shock. He almost smiled. Then the flock of shadow birds tore through Cendrion. Wards woven into the silver armour held and then cracked. Splinters of ceramite tore into Cendrion's muscles. A wall of telekinetic force lifted him from the floor, spinning his bulk like a dry leaf. Polished plates buckled and tore. Ragged edges of metal punctured his flesh. Bones in his chest and arms shattered. Warning chimes sang from around his collar. His flesh burned as warding runes melted on the inside of his armour. Liquid silver dripped from the Grey Knight as he fell.

Ahriman pulled his dispersed mind back together, feeling the substance of his body flickering back into reality. He looked down at Cendrion." - Ahriman: Sorcerer, pg 230

  • Ahriman also has BFR + Power Null that worked on the Yncarne, which is saying something.
"Yvraine felt her hatred flare hot, her gyrinx growling at her side. There was their leader, commanding the throng from his perch on a disk of fiery metal. Casting aside her finery, she shot towards him like a living missile, her companions close on her heels. Calmly putting his staff aside, the champion of Tzeentch cupped his hands as if trapping a winged insect, and hurled a handful of nothingness upwards with a roar.

Along with the Visarch and the Yncarne, Yvraine suddenly found herself adrift -- not within the webway, but without. They were stranded in a near-silent limbo, trapped on the top of the psychocrystal walls. The sounds of battle were muffled beneath them, and the cool void sucked in its breath at their backs. Yvraine did not look around, for she felt something there, in the darkness. A voice in her mind said should she do so, she would behold the Changer of Ways himself, and learn the meaning of madness. That voice was not Eldar, but a human; it belonged not to a salvaged soul, but to the Arch-Sorcerer below. Another joined it; that of Elierrogh the Sage, one of the spirit passengers within her. She had studied this one at length.

A flash of insight struck Yvraine. 'Ahzek Ahriman!' she shouted, 'I have that which you seek. I can restore your brethren!'

A stone's throw away, the Visarch cut at the webway's exterior with the Sword of Silent Screams, but he could not scratch it. The Yncarne hissed in pain to her flank, trailers of purple mist unwinding from its body as it was dissolved by the aether behind.

'And why should I believe that?' came the sorcerous voice in Yvraine's head. 'You have no power here, in my new domain.' She felt white heat as something loomed behind, the fell gaze of godly eyes burning down upon her with terrible, inhuman focus." - Fracture of Biel-tan

  • Would Elminster be able to properly counter something like that? Or if Ahriman decided to take the fight to the Warp, or even just retreat and strike from there, would Elminster be able to properly counter? Ahriman never really picks a poor option for combat, as his precog is rather impressive.
"He felt all sense fall away. Everything became distant, just another pattern spinning through the quiet stillness. He could see the possibilities of the next nanosecond, multiply and collapse. He saw the Rubricae climbing over the walls, the molten stone squashing beneath their feet. He saw Astraeos fall. He saw a figure of fire waiting at the end of a billion branching futures. He was the storm, the still point around which the warp turned." - Ahriman: Sorcerer

"In decades past, fractured timelines had shone through the veil of the empyrean, and Ahriman had seen the echoes of futures yet to come as easily as a mortal man could guess what might happen were he to step off a cliff." - A Thousand Sons, pg 122

"His heightened sensitivity to the immediate future gave him an unmatched situational awareness. He could read the flow of thermoclines across the mountains, see every aircraft, and feel the fears of their crews as they surged towards Phoenix Crag. His awareness floated above the unfolding assault, reading its ebbs and flows as surely as if it were a slow-moving battle simulation." - A Thousand Sons, pg 332

I would like to know what his best options would be to counter some of Ahriman's stuff, as I remember comparatively little about the full extent of Elminster's capabilities.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
I have one more idea to try before I close this.
And I don't think you're going to like it.
Click to expand...
what have you done
 
Anyways, Ahriman yeets Elminster pretty hard due to being a better smurf, IIRC. He could try to kill the mage, but I doubt he can instakill or instaincap. And Ahzek pretty much just says "go die in this High 1-B place" IIRC. None of Elminster's summons will help him there.
 
I can check this out in a bit, provided it doesn't get as long as Elminster vs Tezzeret did.
 
^ Probably a stomp, Wright. Elm stomped the other two competitors via 2-C summons and just generally being able to incap with no chance on their side, Ahzek can't get harmed by anything Elm would do, I think.
 
I think he definitely could be harmed, as he's still a mortal (albeit one who is an enhanced superhuman who has lived for 10,000 years). It's just significantly, significantly harder for Elm to pull off than it is with pretty much anyone else he was put against.
 
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