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Elminster Aumar VS Ahzek Ahriman

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He doesn't start shifted into the warp, he can just do that sort of thing almost instantly if he really needed to. He's not gonna arbitrarily start with that considering he;s not being assailed by like 30 passives in this thread.
 
Okay. I'll make an argument for Elminster since, looking at this, it *hopefully* isn't a stomp.

Since we're still giving prep time for Elminster, he should be able to look into the resistances of his opponents. Three months is a long time and he can get more by hopping to a plane of existence where time progresses slower.

In theory, Elminster could access any single spell in D&D within those three months- it isn't beyond his capacity to get new spells and prepare them for this fight, should his own arsenal be rendered useless. This means if his own page doesn't have abilities, he could access spells that would potentially win- potentially becoming like Aumvor the Undying or some similar absurdly powerful spellcaster.

The same goes for Elminster's equipment- given his status as an epic level mage with quite a bit of wealth he could make or purchase any number of gear to give him an upper hand. Listing these possibilities would be pointless since there are unironically thousands of them.

Elminster inherently resists most of Ahriman's hax. I will assume that, since he's Warhammer's hax god, that Ahriman's abilities have a decent chance of being better than Elminster can resist- most especially the mindhax, since Elminster scales to civilizations and I'd assume Warhammer is far above that.

I'm not ignoring the fact that Ahzek's divination magic will probably allow him to foresee this and Elminster's will allow him to foresee Ahzek's in a vicious cycle. I don't know if this will help Elminster or harm him- however, if he learns of this, he could just protect himself from divination, thus gaining an advantage.

There's a lot to consider but in the end I believe I'd hand it to Ahzek. Ahzek possesses the means to see Elminster and know his tactics before Elminster realizes. His mindhax and BFR are smurfy and thus will surprise the mage. Elminster may open with summoning a 2-C Infernal right on Ahriman, but he'll be gone- even if Ahriman gets killed, Elminster will have died first.

EDIT: Wok tells me he doesn't start with shifting into the warp. In that case I might unironically vote for Elminster since he can, again, overwhelm him with AP.
 
yeah asking Wok about his passives rn
 
Also wow, I didn't even notice the prep time was three months, the first time.

Is Ahriman allowed to do stuff like replace the sun with a daemon portal and other such nonsense, in that case?

"Ahriman had long sought the skull of Lepidus, a dead hero of the Second Black Crusade, for reasons that remain his own. The skull, dipped in silver and engraved with ten thousand words of detestation, lay in the polar shrine city on Dianaxis. A conspiracy to obtain the skull by guile had already failed, so Ahriman turned to more direct means.

Since the end of the Scouring, countless billions have fought and died in the shadow of the Eye of Terror. For almost eight millennia the remains of many of these honoured dead lay on Dianaxis. Heaps of charred bones, the serene bodies of martyrs, and the polished skulls of Space Marines all came to the mausoleum world. On the surface of Dianaxis, the plains of bones extended from shrine city to shrine city, and grew ever deeper with each passing year. The cities themselves were built from the skulls and bones of the most heroic dead. So sacred and revered was Dianaxis that a dozen Space Marine Chapters maintained honour guards and bastions on its surface. Star fortresses ringed its approaches, and millions of troops stood sentinel over the skulls of those who had died to hold the darkness in abeyance.

Across the reaches of space, Ahriman burned worlds and sent souls shrieking into the Warp. As the murdered worlds spun into alignment with each other they created an arcane pattern in the stars with Dianaxis at its heart. As the great design locked into place, Dianaxis' sun was pulled from reality, leaving a howling wound in the sky of the mausoleum world. Blood and fire spread across the heavens. The bones of the dead howled the last thoughts of their lives, and rainbow fire crawled across the ossuary towers. Daemons poured through the hole that had been the sun, tumbling onto the mausoleum world like falling stars. The defenders screamed as the children of Chaos ate their souls.

Amidst the slaughter, Ahriman appeared outlined in lightning, ringed by sorcerers and rubricae. Power rolled from the circle of sorcerers and they strode through the battle, killing the defenders and dissolving Daemons with arcane fire. The Chapter Honour Guard came against him, but were reduced to ashes and silent screams with a gesture. Fire Bane, last Warlord of the Legio Officium, strode to war from its shrine. The cry of its warhorns echoed across the damned world, and its weapons burnt a path towards Ahriman's circle. Drawing together the power of his fellow sorcerers, Ahriman forced the war machine to its knees, before pulling the core of its plasma reactor through its carapace. At last, Ahriman held the skull of Lepidus in his hand, as the battle between men and Daemons raged around him. Raising the skull to his eyes he found the one word he sought etched on the skull's surface. Letting the skull fall from his hand, he and his forces vanished, leaving the world of bones to the howls of Daemons and the cries of the dying." - Warlords of the Dark Millennium: Champions of Chaos
 
Throwback to the thread that was Ahriman vs Ganondorf but Ahriman has 2 years of prep

I feel like with that amount of time he could just enlist the aid of significantly stronger beings if need be, their willingness irrelevant to the situation.
 
A spell turning spell will practically counter anything directly targeting Elminster on top of other protections, and it will turn back the spell regardless of where it was cast from, may it be the Astral Sea or the Warp. Other dispelling/counterspelling spells are difficult to pit against other magic system since they are based on the relative power of the opposed spellcasters but technically a greater dispel magic can counter and dispel spells on any level below epic (see below for what epic magic is) and if Elminster is succesful at counterspelling any spell he may reflect it fully back. Also I repeat that as a spellfire wielder Elminster can absorb any spell targeted at him and convert it to raw destructive magical energy or heal himself. For good measure, I should add that Elminster is immune to mind reading and can't be blocked into a static time.

To put things into perspective, striking from another plane of existence does not require any epic spell, for example a wizard can do this via gate but can also decide to be creative and annoying. For example, Elminster may strike from another plane via astral Projection spell' 'while his real body is hidden in his magnificent mansion* protected by mind blank (it hides him from all divinations and renders him immune to mind manipulations), sending forth his projection that in turn may hide itself in another plane, into its own magnificent mansio, protected by misdirection and nondetection (to provide false results to divinations) while sending forth a projected image. And his projection (but not his shadow double from projected image) would still be protected by Elminster's evasio.

Epic magic, on the other hand, can do literally everything given enough time and resources, like killing a greater deity like this . And Elminster has access to epic spellcasting. Epic spells are not even related (at least not totally like non-epic magic) to caster level anymore, so epic spells by Elminster can generate the same effects of those by Karsus described in the the link above, aka steal the power of a 2-A entity.

Sidenote: The relevant RAW part of magnificent mansio is: "only those you designate may enter the mansion." So he will be absolutely safe (after all, this is the reason the spell exists: to give the spellcaster a safe sanctuary anywhere he may be) unless ofc one of the Chaos Gods decides its worth to meet Elminster.

And frankly, Ahriman may bring the fight to the warp but still has to go around Elminster's celerity to avoid being put into suspended animation/static time or sent face to face with any greater deity (which always act first unless pitted against a similar or more powerful deity, so I doubt Arhy will get any chance of leaving the place). I found the idea of Ahriman sent to the Black Pyramid of Seth strangely amusing.

This is the RAW description of foresight in the 3.5 handbook: "This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself". To evaluate moment of prescience just look how it's used within the game: it practically turns any action into certain success.

But again, I'm reasoning only based on what wizards can do and what Elminster can do, on what Elminster is more likely to do, we need someone who has read all the novels related to him. But those 3 months of preparation are likely to drastically change his usual way of action, given his level of intelligence and the fact that the "very basic knowledge" he's going to get would probably be something like "you are going to fight a sorcerer of cosmic power".

We may also need some serious veteran wizard players, which I am not, to explore the most powerful combo the class has to offer. For istance, I can't decide how he could use his contingency spell.

I've still not decided my vote.


EDIT: looks like I've lost something like a dozen posts while writing this, but it's almost 4:00 am and I'm going to bed without reading or editing.
 
There are definitely some nuts wizard combos, but I'm not entirely sure we should go on what can be accomplished in game as opposed to what Elminster is likely to use them to accomplish (frankly though, in this case, I doubt too many of the game-mechanic things are out of his power, and most of the stuff he can do from a lore perspective is equally if not more effective).

This is an interesting spot though, considering Elminster is fighting a character who is both stronger and has a stronger power source, but he has more reliable summoning of high-tier entities, as the Chaos Gods rarely give a shit and the strongest Warp entities don't exactly leave the immaterium. This is of course unless Ahriman takes the fight to the Warp at some point, after which Elminster becomes extremely disadvantaged, in that regard.

3 months of prep makes it hard to assume what either's opening move will even be, so I'd have to think on that.
 
I mean

What he would use is shrouded by the fact that he has three months (more if he dimension hops) to prepare

I honestly almost lean incon, I think both could feasibly instantly murder each other through some means
 
Mr. Bambu said:
What he would use is shrouded by the fact that he has three months (more if he dimension hops) to prepare
Click to expand...
Exactly.

This is a battle between two people who would both easily have INT scores well, well beyond 20+, precognition, three months to prepare, and both of whom have a powerset that essentially boils down to "yes".

I don't even know what the fight would look like when it starts because of that, as that much prep for these two introduces a massive chunk of unknown factors.
 
Right so for now my vote is Incon, both are hyper intelligent and have counters to certain abilities. If Ahzek led with BFR, he'd take insta-win, but we've got no idea.

Soooooo Incon for now.
 
Just realized Elminster may be able to survive the Warp via avoid planar effects, planar bubble and attune form, probably by casting all of them to avoid being compromised by the dispelling of a single spell.

If we are really evaluating Intelligence scores, Elminster has 27 without any spell or item to enhance it. But from RAW can aquire or make any non-artifact item, so he can pump it at least to 41 by wearing a Band of Intelligence +12.

As of now, my vote too is inconclusive.
 
41 puts him at Gond's level, leaving him solidly at Super Genius. Even at 27 he's at least Extraordinary and possibly Super.
 
btw Elminster is going through revisions as we speak- not ones specific to him, so sadly his page won't get the cleanup it properly deserves (yet), but his AP is being boosted to either 6-C (scaling to Imix, whom he is laughably above) or more accurately 6-B (scaling to other Epic Level creatures such as Aumvor the Undying or Ithyak-Ortheel)
 
ver' true

just to clarify, despite revisions I still vote Incon.
 
TBF, that's due in no small part to the prep making everything into a giant nightmare before the battle even starts.

Without the extensive prep, I'd argue Ahriman has a much better chance of eliminating Elminster before he can form an effective counter. But with it? Hoo boy. So many unknowns are added to the battlefield that the second it starts, it'll be an absolute warzone. The place is going to be full of celestials walking the material plane and magic everywhere. The landscape will be warped by God knows how many stupefying supernatural effects. The sun won't be shining, because the sun will be replaced with a giant portal in space that spews a solar system's worth of daemons into existence.

It becomes borderline impossible to even determine where Ahriman and Elminster are in all of this. And through that, I think both will feel a slight twinge of something inside of themselves that has become all too rare in their later years...

Respect for a worthy opponent.
 
one more
 
we did it lads

we got the grace period

next up

we get that bread gamers
 
[After reading through everything]

I need to take horrifying risks do matchups like this one more often. This might just be my favorite result I've seen in a long time.
 
You're ******' up my happy moment, dude. Do you realize how rare those are?
 
D╠Âo╠ ╠Ây╠Âo╠Âu╠ ╠Âr╠Âe╠Âa╠Âl╠Âi╠Âz╠Âe╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ât╠ ╠Ây╠Âo╠Âu╠ ╠Âi╠ ╠Âc╠Âa╠Âu╠Âg╠Âh╠Ât╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âf╠Â-c╠Âk╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Âp╠Âa╠Ân╠Âd╠Âa╠Â,╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âo╠Âs╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠Âr╠Âe╠ ╠Âr╠Âe╠Âa╠Âl╠Âl╠Ây╠ ╠Âr╠Âa╠Âr╠Âe╠Â
 
I am relieved in the end this didn't ended with me having killed the thread.

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Without the extensive prep, I'd argue Ahriman has a much better chance of eliminating Elminster before he can form an effective counter.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that defensively Elminster is always prepared and that that is where he really shine, as in the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting he's described as always being prepared to fight his equals (at least in magical skills) like Szass Tam or Manshoon and even an entire coalition of his enemies. And, seriously, all he needs to redo the entirety of his spell selection is 10 minutes with spell engine, so he could retire into his magnificent mansio, plan a new strategy and enact it at record time. Even while mad and severely weakened by both the absence of Mystra and the spellplague, he drove off all his enemies, mercenaries and multiple parties of high-level adventurers. He fears only Larloch the Shadowking, and only because said lich would start a fight with millennia of prep time. Regarding facing worthy opponents, all this incidentally means Elminster is not going to be out of shape.

Without prep time, possibly only a balefire by Rand Al'thor that retroactively null his existence for 30 seconds or more may be lethal to Elminster, and still Rand would need the element of surprise, or else an Elminster's effulgent epuratio spell may still protect the wizard even from balefire.

still I would read that Elminster/Ahriman fanficio
 
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