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Potential Upgrade to Arceus' Power Null (Or a mountain of new resistances)

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Zeifyl

Zeifyl

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Alternate title: "Can a piece of cardboard make a goat the (second?) biggest tank of its tier?"


I was looking at the thread Roar of Time (possible new abilities), when I saw someone who had posted this card

Fl096


Immediately, I took note of the ability. I even asked people very much into the TCG, to verify that my suspicions are correct.

In main game terms, First Law is essentially an amalgamation of Shield Dust, Magic Guard, and Magic Bounce (without the Attack Reflection). In addition, this is passive. And since it doesn't get rid of damage, the only two possibilities I see for what it can be is Power Nullification, and more resistances.

From here, I see three possibilities:

1. Arceus passively nulls (or resists) the various TCG effects. This includes (but may not be limited to, I don't know enough about the TCG to be sure): Confusion, Power Nullification, Fate Manipulation, Statistics Reduction, and BFR.

2. Arceus passively nulls (or resists) the various effects in the core games. There are too many of these for me to want to (or even be able to) go through them all.

3. Arceus passively nulls (or resists) any hax a Composite Pokémon can use (short of what's exclusive to Arceus). If this is a null, that's a pretty high level of overpowered.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
So we use game cards for Pokemon profiles as well?
Click to expand...
Well, for example, it was accepted that the Power Nullification of Giratina in its profile came from the Shadow Force in TCG, so yes, we can use game cards
 
Enryu The Red Tower said:
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
So we use game cards for Pokemon profiles as well?
Click to expand...
Well, for example, it was accepted that the Power Nullification of Giratina in its profile came from the Shadow Force in TCG, so yes, we can use game cards
Click to expand...
May I ask how the card game fits into the canon?
 
Well, TCG has the same descriptions about pokémon as the pokedex, it's based directly on the games and many cards are made by people who work on Game Freak like Ken Sugimori. Is more faithful to the games than the anime, that for sure.

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SomebodyData said:
So wait, we treat TCG canon too? Hmmm
Click to expand...
Giratina's Power Nulling Shadow Force, Renegade Pulse and Devour Light abilities, as well as Arceus' Metal Barrier, are from the TCG and are on their profiles. Surprisingly, Dialga's own Power Null, Time Crystal, is listed on Arceus' profile, but not on Dialga's for some reason. Someone should get on that.
 
Khornes null is still significantly better because of it scaling to the other chaos gods.

If we use TCG stuff I guess it's fine. It being called first law sorta implies it's more a form of defensive law manip sorta similar to what dudes like The Warpriest and Oryx, the Taken King have. For those I listed the resistances but also said that it was via law manip, so they'd be able to be overriden through superior law (with those two profiles I linked they still retain most of the resistances, they just stop being invincible but I digress).
 
Agreeing as well. Looks pretty clear cut.

And yes to add onto the aforementioned stuff on TCG, there's explicity a manga about Pokemon TCG's being real and having a backstory for each one, so that should be more support.
 
Wokistan said:
If we use TCG stuff I guess it's fine. It being called first law sorta implies it's more a form of defensive law manip sorta similar to what dudes like The Warpriest and Oryx, the Taken King have.
Click to expand...
Huh. I did not even consider the possibility of it being Law Manip.

"Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
May I ask how the card game fits into the canon?
Click to expand...
Along with what has already been stated, there's a section about it on Cal's blog. "The TCG (which has its own manga called How I Became a Pokémon Card that confirms that every card has a story behind it, with the pictures and moves being legit as well) having game and anime characters appear."
 
You know, basing one of Arceus' powers purely off the game mechanic portion of a TCG effect seems kinda...suspect?

Especially when it's just referring to effects found within the TCG, and stuff like damage still gets through.

At best, one could rationalize this as "Arceus can power null things way weaker than himself", which...seems like it would be a given. He doesn't exactly have any competitors in his own verse. This seems like the type of thing people would blow way out of proportion in an actual match, which we'd then have to back up with a vague game mechanic that doesn't even have a lore/in-universe portion.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
You know, basing one of Arceus' powers purely off the game mechanic portion of a TCG effect seems kinda...suspect?
Especially when it's just referring to effects found within the TCG, and stuff like damage still gets through.

At best, one could rationalize this as "Arceus can power null things way weaker than himself", which...seems like it would be a given. He doesn't exactly have any competitors in his own verse. This seems like the type of thing people would blow way out of proportion in an actual match, which we'd then have to back up with a vague game mechanic that doesn't even have a lore/in-universe portion.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I've been waiting to see a counterargument all thread!

Curious to see where this might lead.
 
@Triforce This would only be a counter if Arceus wasn't the best at a lot of notable powers in the setting as opposed to just AP. Dude's every type and created reality as it exists in the Pokemon continuity. He's also infinitely above all but several other characters in the entire series, all of whom he created directly or indirectly led to the creation of.
 
But that still doesn't mean one can ignore hax. All of what you said is fine and everything, but not getting status effects is still a form of power null.

Zen'ō doesn't work that way, the Golde Goddesses don't work that way, and so on. Especially because, following that reasoning, all the members of the CT should have it instead of simply Arceus.
 
"But that still doesn't mean one can ignore hax."

Every Bill Cipher vs thread would like a word with you.

On a serious note, yeah, we normally treat it that way (ex: some random 5-B being with no 4-D abilities trying to use their hax on a Tier 2 who is 4-D), but obviously context can change things.

The issue here is that there's no context. It's an effect on one of Arceus' trading cards worded purely in the form of a game mechanic, which is why it's hard to apply it from a lore perspective without any of that.
 
I'm more worried about the application of such a power in a practical sense, considering the card itself says these effects are only prevented when connected to attacks coming from your opponent and that it only negates things done to Arceus, meaning it doesn't actually negate all additional effects of your opponent's.

This ties further into the problem of it just being a game ability with no lore behind it. It makes it difficult to tell if this is supposed to be an actual power Arceus could translate into any battle we put him into or something given to him purely because he is the creator god of Pokemon and the strongest thing in the setting. Nothing on the card makes such nuances clear, which I feel is an issue with just giving him something like major power null due to a game effect.
 
In the TCG does First Law effect other abilities or does it only negate the effects of moves? If it doesn't effect abilities then would it effect other passives?
 
According to the card and the distinctions made by the TCG itself, only the effects of attacks and only those that would affect Arceus. This does not seem to be an ability that interacts with the additional effects of the opponent's attacks which have no interaction with Arceus, nor does it interact with the opponent's abilities.
 
So it doesn't effect anything that doesn't effect Arceus like self status boosts or healing nor does it effect passives, so Magic Bounce but instead of reflecting it nulls instead.
 
The sort of stuff you say in order to try to bait me into banning you.

Kal already tried to ban me several times for my jokes about Italian food and he always failed ovo
 
I think we might be overcomplicating this a bit.

First Law, as it reads, says that all effects from the opponents attacks are prevented by Arceus, except for damage.

The way I see it, it should simply be that Arceus passively resists or nulls the [insert here] effects of the attacks but the attack itself remains.

Its like if an opponent used, say, a 2-B level hax attack. Say an energy beam that reality warps as an additional component. If encountering this, First Law basically just lets Arceus remove the reality warping aspect of the attack and turns it into a regular 2-B energy beam.
 
Arceus should be resistant to various abilities and effects due to being practically all types.

Also, Arceus can nullify abilities of the creation trio, so...
 
Correct me if I'm wrong or just ignorant but I'm pretty sure being higher dimensional by itself doesn't mean you can resist haxes for being higher dimensional.
 
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